Robert Posted July 30, 2005 Share Posted July 30, 2005 According to 1 Peter 2:24 "He [Christ as man] Himself bore our sins in His body...." We must remember that the pre-incarnate Christ was God and that "God is Spirit" as opposed to "flesh and blood". Hence "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God [the Father], and the Word was God." [1 John 1:1] Now take a look at Hebrews 10:4,5: "For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Therefore, when He came into the world, He says, “Sacrifice and offering Thou hast not desired, But a body Thou [God the Father] hast prepared [:"red"]for Me...."[/] Please take note that God the Father prepared "a body" for Christ as God. According to Peter this body "bore our sins"....Namely it was our corporate, fallen humanity. It is not that hard to comprehend if you look at it in reverse: “Abide in Me, and I in you." [John 15:4] When you accepted the atonement, Christ (through the Spirit) came to live "in you". His presence actually resides "in you." When the Holy Spirit came to dwell "in you" did He become you? No! He remained Himself while residing in your fallen flesh. He doesn't become you. The same is true of Christ as God. The body that was made for Him belongs to our humanity…it was never His by native right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 30, 2005 Share Posted July 30, 2005 Here’s what C.E.B. Cranfield* states in his commentary on Romans 8:3 “…The Son of God was not changed into a man, but rather assumed human nature while still remaining Himself….He never became fallen human nature and nothing more (nor fallen human nature indwelt by the Holy Spirit and nothing more – as a Christian might be described as being), but always remained Himself….The Son of God assumed the selfsame fallen human nature that is ours, but that in His case that fallen human nature was never the whole of Him – He never ceased to be the eternal Son of God.” [Romans, A Shorter Commentary] * Emeritus Professor of Theology, University of Durham. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted July 30, 2005 Share Posted July 30, 2005 “The fourth Gospel records Jesus' concern for His mother's welfare as voiced in His dying words to John (19:26-27). Jesus wanted His mother to be cared for properly after His death.” I ran across the above statement on the net and wondered… what kind of concern is it that is put forward, notwithstanding, Christ already having informed His apostles that they would be baptized, as He, that is, with cruel and unnatural deaths? Mk 10:38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? v39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized: Lastly, per cultural mores… wherein lay the responsibility for Mary’s care after the death of Jesus -- given, hypothetically, that she had four other natural sons and at least two natural daughters? Let’s look at the following… Jn 19:26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! v27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own [home]. I suggest that even though Mary might have been properly attended to by in-laws of varying closeness… the fact that Jesus gave his mother to his apostle for keeping suggests that Jesus was the only child of her womb; otherwise, John 19 becomes the legitimate matrix sustaining the doctrine of Marianology (note that home in verse 27 is supplied by the translators). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted July 31, 2005 Share Posted July 31, 2005 I fear we digress from topic, nevertheless, to answer… >>As God he never knew sin...but as the Son of man he was "born in sin"....The moment His deity united to our humanity in the womb of Mary...that moment His assumed humanity came under the curse: Gal 4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5 to redeem those under law<< A couple of things wherewith my thoughts diverge… one, sin-as-leaven leaveneth the whole; two, whereas you’ve hitherto identified a correlation between death and the (definite article) curse…, and I suppose you reprise it in the above, I note that YLT and Green’s Interlinear Greek English also, as in the above text, omit the definite article ‘the’ in born under law. I can only conclude that the phrase “born under law” refers to the (at that time) Jewish economy. >>According to 1 Peter 2:24 "He [Christ as man] Himself bore our sins in His body...."<< 1Pet 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. >>According to Peter this body "bore our sins"....Namely it was our corporate, fallen humanity.<< This “bearing of our sins in His body” was the typical fulfillment of the antitypical Atonement Sabbath of Leviticus 23. Part of the ceremony of the antitypical Atonement Sabbath consisted of ‘laying the sins of the congregation’ upon the Azazel goat, which was then led into the wilderness; or, in the case of its type -- quickened by the Spirit, went to the wilderness of the dead… (St Peter). One objecting to the preceding -- please delineate the Who, What, When, Where, How and Why of the ‘wilderness’ pageant, as to how its implementation was otherwise enacted. Re: C.E.B. Cranfield, Emeritus >>...but that in His case that fallen human nature was never the whole of Him...<< / overextends his assumptions / a little leaven leaveneth the whole / imho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 31, 2005 Share Posted July 31, 2005 Quote: jasd said: >>Gal 4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law , 5 to redeem those under law<< I can only conclude that the phrase “born under law” refers to the (at that time) Jewish economy. Okay, let’s take your conclusion and rewrite Gal 4:4 -- But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law's of commerce , 5 to redeem those under the Jewish laws of commerce. Does that make sense? No! Now let's examine the immediate context: Gal 3:9 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one. 21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners [:"red"]under the law[/], locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. Clearly the immediate context is talking about God's law! Before faith in Christ was exercised we were "locked up" under its condemnation...that is, we were on death row. How did God solve the situation? Gal 4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5 to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.... For Christ's assumed humanity to be born "under law" it had to be born of a woman! So the humanity He took was our sinful humanity under the curse. Christ, in and of Himself, is called "that Holy Thing" because He is by native right "The Son of God".... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 31, 2005 Share Posted July 31, 2005 Quote: jasd said: a little leaven leaveneth the whole Okay...then your assumption leads to two errors: 1] Since the Holy Spirit resides in sinful flesh (i.e., the believer's humanity) then He must be a sinner. 2] Since the Holy Spirit, who is Holy, resides in us then we must be Holy and without sin! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted August 1, 2005 Share Posted August 1, 2005 Sorry, for the misunderstanding…, I used “economy” in the sense provided below An orderly, functional arrangement of parts; an organized system:, which would have availed itself of laws, ordinances, statutes, and judgements…, per >>Clearly the immediate context is talking about God's law!<< that is, the pre and proscriptions of Gd. It was not necessarily meant to convey a buying and selling per se; say, as in the sense used of the commercially enterprising ‘Babylon’ of Revelation, >>For Christ's assumed humanity to be born "under law" it had to be born of a woman! So the humanity He took was our sinful humanity under the curse.<< The whole episodic event of Jesus is one attested to by miracles and perfection. The inference drawn would be that there was nothing relating to His mission (Gd tabernacling with man) that could not be accomplished by a miracle. He could not have been the perfect sacrifice as needs have been -- were He of a ‘sinful nature’. Per curse: Rather than meeting _a requirement ‘under law’ that He should die_, He declared that He laid down His life willingly -- volitionally, as ransom or purchase price -- for mankind. Quote: Quote: jasd said: a little leaven leaveneth the whole Okay...then your assumption leads to two errors: Necessarily? >>1] Since the Holy Spirit resides in sinful flesh (i.e., the believer's humanity) then He must be a sinner.<< That would suggest that Gd is corruptible. >>2] Since the Holy Spirit, who is Holy, resides in us then we must be Holy and without sin!<< Were it so that a celestial parallel to a terrestrial leaven might obtain! However, evidence indicates that were leaven appositional to the HS it would not be as constant in function as the Biblical leaven-as-sin. The analogy does not seem to obtain. >>When the Holy Spirit came to dwell "in you" did He become you? No! He remained Himself while residing in your fallen flesh. He doesn't become you. The same is true of Christ as God. The body that was made for Him belongs to our humanity…it was never His by native right.<< The difference being -- that Christ became the carnality of flesh, bone, and blood; whereas, the HS, (according to even the many of the particular .Org believe that there is but the one Gd and the one Son) is simply a numinous ‘force’, as it were. Besides, hasn’t this already been done by us and this currently --is all déjà vu? Anyway, although I hold to an ‘unfallen nature of Christ’ vis-à-vis purport of a fallen, post-Adamic nature…, can it be said, of a certainty, that ‘Christ’s nature' is essential to the beliefs of Xtianity? (I do, however, subscribe to an esoteric aspect that might be considered somewhat tangential, but that’s for another day.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 1, 2005 Share Posted August 1, 2005 Quote: The difference being -- that Christ became the carnality of flesh, bone, and blood; whereas, the HS, is simply a numinous ‘force’, as it were. Let me remind you that "God is Spirit"....The Trinity is made up of three Spirits who are in perfect harmony. So when Christ's Spirit (His Deity) was united to our fallen humanity, Christ did not change....He remained Himself. When the Holy Spirit unites himself to our fallen humanity, He does not change....He remains Himself. Now back to Gal 4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem [to save] those who were under the law.... It's very simple: God sent forth His Son [hence, the Son of God] and united Him with our fallen humanity in the womb of Mary. The moment the Son of God assumed our fallen humanity, that instant our humanity came under the condemnation of the law. Why? Ps 51:5 Surely I [David in this case] was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. On the cross our condemned humanity took the curse of the law...it died eternally. At the resurrection the Son of God (who never died) gave us His own life in exchange for our condemned life. Hence Christ took a glorified humanity to heaven. This is the gospel that must be proclaimed to the world. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clio Posted August 1, 2005 Share Posted August 1, 2005 Planey - I work extensively with surviving victims of Satanic Ritual Abuse, identified as SRA for short. One of the common "programs" or abuses that I see consistently, across all areas of the country, is the sexual abuse of the victim using biblical imagery, names, etc. The point is to grind into the victim's mind that not even god or jesus can save them. To do this, they (the victim) are allowed to establish a "safe" relationship with clergy, and then at a time of their handler's choosing are raped by someone addressed and costumed as the stereotypical "Jesus" of mainstream Christianity. This is particularly devastating, and as you can probably imagine, creates huge dissociative issues, as well as distrust, that makes it even harder for them to be able to believe in the saving grace, power, and love of True Jesus. Invariably, when one of these ladies establishes (usually after many years) a relationship with True Jesus, they call Him True Jesus or Good Jesus to differentiate between what they know as evil jesus or false/bad jesus. What they tend to call Him is related to the age at which the imposter raped them disguised as jesus. The younger the age, the less likely they are to use true/false and the more likely they are to use good/bad as the descriptors. It has become a habit with me, in order not to trigger certain memories and because I have seen too much done in the false jesus name. When working with demonic aspects of the SRA paradigm, I am always careful to give Jesus His full title. As to Abba Father that is personal not from working with SRA survivors. When I was making my way back to a true and right relationship with True Jesus and Abba Father, I hit a stumbling block in my prayer life. The Holy Spirit was teaching me how to pray in ways Abba Father could bless, but I found that I was resisting praying. After struggling with it for quite a while, I just accepted the fact that I couldn't break through this and in tears asked for what I should call Him. At the time I was praying to "My Father in Heaven" as I had been "taught". The word "Abba" was given to me. Since the only Abba I knew at the time was the music group, I asked again. And was again given the word Abba. Figuring I was losing my mind(I was new to recognizing His Word in my life... was still at the stage requiring blinking neon sign-posts and every single other aveneue being closed, nor had I learned about the two confirming witnesses...) I put it out of my mind, and went on with studying the books He had sent for me to study. About two weeks later, I nearly fell out of my chair when I ran across the Bible texts where Jesus prayed to Abba, and Paul told us we are to cry "Abba Abba". When I pray, I pray to Abba or to Dear Jesus. When I write, I tend to write Abba Father as a respectful and loving and adoring Daughter referring to her Father/King/Creator. He is my Daddy in every important sense of the word. And as I come to know Him better, and He manifests in my life more and more, those words fit our relationship better and better. I don't have to spend near the time I used to curled up in His lap sobbing into His shoulder. As my pain heals, W/we spend more time in Joy and much less in healing. Clio Quote A heart where He alone has first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clio Posted August 1, 2005 Share Posted August 1, 2005 Jasd - True Jesus did not enter in to His miracle ministry until after His baptism, where He was recognized by Abba Father as His Beloved Son in whom He is well pleased. True Jesus 40 day fast in the desert and His subsequent tempting by the Adversary also preceded His entering in to His miracle ministry. I do think being visibly anointed with the Holy Spirit as well as the cleansing and spiritual strengthening of an extended fast, culminating in His triumphant routing of the Adversary during his testing would most likely further open the door to His miracle ministry on Abba's behalf. There are other prophets, Elijah, Elisha, and certainly the Apostles who performed miracles and no one says THEIR mother's were chaste after their births. His miracle ministry commenced during (approximately) His 30th year. Prior to that time, He lived as us, was born as us, and always could have sinned. For His death and atonement for sin to be acceptable, and for each of us to have His Hope, His Grace, it is necessary that He had no advantage Adam did not have. There were no guarantees to Abba Father, that He would be able to receive His Beloved Son back unto Himself. It is a mystery I plan on delving deeper into when time permits. I'm sure there are plenty of records in the Library in Heaven. Can we agree to disagree since there is no proof one way or the other? I think we need to do so. I cannot reconcile your views with what I know to be Abba Father's character. Edited to add: Nor can I reconcile it with the lengths Abba and True Jesus have gone to restore my marriage, which surely and truly was deader than Lazerus and for much longer than three days... even applying the year/day principle. If They place that much importance on my marriage, then They surely would have on Mary's. Clio Quote A heart where He alone has first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 1, 2005 Share Posted August 1, 2005 For Adventists pondering this truth, allow me to quote EGW: "Humanity died: divinity did not die." [The Faith I Live By, page 51] From where did Christ as God assume our fallen life? Answer: From Mary! Some might ask, "What does that have to do with me?" Well...where did you come from? Please don't say your mother because at some point you are going to get all the way back to Adam. Please remember that even Eve came from Adam.... All of us, male and female, share one life -- Adam's fallen life. We are bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh. We share his fallen life. That is why we are considered sinners by conception (see Ps 51:5) and not only by outward sins. Even EGW agrees: "We have reason for ceaseless gratitude to God that Christ, by His perfect obedience, has won back the heaven that Adam lost through disobedience. Adam sinned, and [:"red"]the children of Adam share his guilt [condemnation][/] and its consequences [eternal death]; but Jesus bore the guilt [condemnation] of Adam, and all the children of Adam that will flee to Christ, the second Adam, may escape the penalty of transgression." [Faith & Works, page 88] The humanity that Christ took upon Himself some 2000 years ago was the humanity that all of us share....Hence He is the corporate man - He is the 2nd Adam. In Him we are compete! Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted August 1, 2005 Author Share Posted August 1, 2005 Did ANYONE read what this thread was about???? Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clio Posted August 1, 2005 Share Posted August 1, 2005 I did... and answered it specifically... we digressed from there... My goodness we did digress didn't we???? Clio Quote A heart where He alone has first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 Quote: Do you view this as biological type brothers (1/2 brothers) I addressed this and naturally tied it into the gospel.... The humanity Christ was made was the same humanity as His brothers....The only difference is Christ never allow that humanity to sin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 Quote: Robert said: In Him we are complete! Robert Amen!!! My 'l' and angel. LHC [:"red"] "May God, who gives this patience and encouragement, help you live in complete harmony with each other--each with the attitude of Christ Jesus toward the other." [/] Romans 15:5 NLT bold mine LHC Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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