When does wrong theology become fatal?

[Gerr]

By and large, there is no want/lack of belief or religion on this planet. Atheists are a negligible minority. Yet it is very clear from what Jesus said, "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." Mt 7:21 NKJ. Many of those excluded could even claim to have prophesied in His name, cast out demons in His name, and done many wonders in His name, v.22.

Contrary to what some may think, none of us have everything down pat theologically, moreover, having everything down pat does not even guarantee one's salvation. But at what point does a person who sincerely believes something erroneous lose his/her salvation? Or does one even lose his/her salvation if he/she is sincere?

Gerry

[Clio]

Awesome questions Gerry... and just the sort I wrestle with... They are EXACTLY the kinds of questions that make me grateful it is Abba Father who is the final judge... I trust Him to judge fairly much more than me.

That said... I have some opinions, (LOL Like what else is new...right?) not doctrine, just opinions.

But I'll wait and hold mine till some other's post.

Clio

[Nan]

Like Clio I am glad it is God Who does the judging.

When I consider this topic, I am reminded of what Jesus says in the "Inasmuch" passage in Matthew 25. What we do to our fellows on this planet appears to have a lot to do with whether we end up on the side of the sheep or the side of the goats.

And the "sheep" are surprised at the commendation for their deeds, so obviously they did not set out to earn salvation by performing lots of good deeds.

[Gerr]

That God is the Judge is a given. But has He left us in the dark as to how He would judge?

How can we avoid the pitfalls if He has not revealed it to us?

Gerry

[Robert]

Quote:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Or does one even lose his/her salvation if he/she is sincere?

Gerry

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"Under law" there is no room for ignorance, but under grace there is....

Acts 3:13 You handed him [Jesus] over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. 14 You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. 15 You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. 16 By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus’ name and the faith that comes through him that has given this complete healing to him, as you can all see. 17 “Now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders....

Luke 23:34 "Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.”

John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire [i.e., to murder the Son of God]. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

Acts 17:23 “For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, ‘TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.’ What therefore you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you."

1 Tim 1:13 "Even though I [Paul] was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst."

Hebrew 9:7 "but into the second only the high priest enters, once a year, not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance."

[Robert]

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ROBERT said:

Hebrew 9:7 "but into the second only the high priest enters, once a year, not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for

the sins of the people committed in ignorance."

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Take for example John 15:13 -- "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends."

Jesus is not bragging on our ability to love... rather He is stating the truth. The best man can do is lay his life down for a friend!

Many see it ignorantly...they see Jesus stating that the highest form of love is to die for a friend, but is this what Jesus meant?

Go to Romans chapter five:

• Verse 7: "Very rarely will anyone die for a just [fair] man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die.

Okay, that's human love at its best....As Jesus said, "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends."

• Verse 8 "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners [His enemies - see verse 10], Christ died for us. 9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life [i.e., His righteous life]!"

Because many are ignorant of this fact, many are caught up into legalism....

Well the good news is that God can save those caught up in their own self-righteousness because they do not fully understand what the law of love really requires!

In fact I believe Saul, who already believed in God, was in a saved condition. He was an ignorant Pharisee....And I am sure the list goes on!

Bottom line?

• “The Lord knows those who are his....” 2 Tim 2:19

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

But at what point does a person who sincerely believes something erroneous lose his/her salvation? Or does one even lose his/her salvation if he/she is sincere?

Gerry

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It is when one knows Jesus to be Sovereign Lord and Almighty God, hears and understands what His requests are for his own person, and then purposes in word and action, [:"orange"] "I will not have this Man to rule over me."

[/]

It is probably true, that attitude is never a one time decision.

[:"red"] "But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, 'Son, go work today in the vineyard.'

"And he answered, 'I will not'; but afterward he regretted it and went.

"The man came to the second and said the same thing; and he answered, 'I will, sir'; but he did not go.

"Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you." [/] Matt 21:28-31 NASB

[:"red"] "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." [/] Isaiah 9:6 KJV

Keep the faith!

[Gerr]

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ROBERT said:

Quote:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Or does one even lose his/her salvation if he/she is sincere?

Gerry

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"Under law" there is no room for ignorance, but under grace there is....

Acts 3:13 You handed him [Jesus] over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. 14 You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. 15 You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. 16 By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus’ name and the faith that comes through him that has given this complete healing to him, as you can all see. 17 “Now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders....

Luke 23:34 "Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.”

John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire [i.e., to murder the Son of God]. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

Acts 17:23 “For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, ‘TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.’ What therefore you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you."

1 Tim 1:13 "Even though I [Paul] was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst."

Hebrew 9:7 "but into the second only the high priest enters, once a year, not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance."

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[:"blue"]Let me remind you, Rob, that the concept of, "sin committed through ignorance", is an OT concept. See Lev 4:2,13,27 5:15; Nu 15:27 KJV. Or translated "unintentional" sins in the NKJV, Lev 4:2,13,27; 5:15; Nu 15:22,27,29; Ez 45:20.

Sins of ignorance or unintentional sins could be atoned for in the Levitical system, but the one who sinned "presumptuously" NKJ, "defiantly" NASB, NIV, "high hand" Young's Lit. Trans, "brazenly" NLT, "on purpose" NCV, "high-handedly" RSV, "deliberately" GNT on Nu 15:30, no atonement provision was made and the sentence was death.

Grace is NOT a uniquely NT concept either. Abraham "believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness." Gen 15:6. Paul's doctrine of salvation by grace through faith alone is based on an OT concept, "But the just shall live by faith," Hab 2:4 NKJ.

Let us look at Heb 11. Abraham, Noah, Jacob, Moses, Rahab, Gideon, Barak, Samson Jephthah. These people did NOT have their theology down pat, especially the last five. They made mistakes, but they were saved by Grace, nevertheless.

So my question remains, at what point does wrong theology become fatal? [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Because many are ignorant of this fact, many are caught up into legalism....

Well the good news is that God can save those caught up in their own self-righteousness because they do not fully understand what the law of love really requires!

In fact I believe Saul, who already believed in God, was in a saved condition. He was an ignorant Pharisee....And I am sure the list goes on!

Bottom line?

• “The Lord knows those who are his....” 2 Tim 2:19

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[:"blue"]Are you saying that ALL who believe in God are saved? ALL the Catholics? ALL the Protestants? ALL SDAs? ["It is a solemn statement that I make to the church, that not one in twenty...." LDE 172] "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord," Mt 7:21. [/]

[:"blue"]"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee [Paul?] and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood a prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men ......' And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his JUSTIFIED RATHER THAN THE OTHER...." Lk 18:10-14 NKJ. So, was this Pharisee saved? According to Jesus, no. At what point then did his erroneous theology become fatal?

Paul was sincere & had the wrong theology BEFORE the Damascus road experience. Was he saved at that point? Before Christ, he called himself, "wretched" who needed deliverance from a body of death, Rom 7:24. The righteousness he had was his "own righteousness, which is from the law," Phil 3:9. But that righteousness was not sufficient to save him because we are saved by a righteousness that is a "righteousness from God", Rom 3:21 NIV. That is why whatever he had achieved up to that point, he "counted them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found IN HIM, not having my own righteousness, which from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith...." Phil 3:8-10 NKJ.

Was the Paul who had the wrong theology but a very sincere & zealous Paul saved before the Damascus road experience saved? I don't think so. Paul is therefore an example of an ignorant but sincere believer in God but yet lost before the Damascus experience, but who also became an example of a person who had the correct theology who also was saved after his Damascus & Arabian experience.

Again, at what point does erroneous theology become fatal?[/]

Gerry

[Yong T Tay]

Quote: "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." Mt 7:21 NKJ.

What is the will of the Father in heaven?

[Gerr]

Quote:

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yongttay said:

Quote: "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." Mt 7:21 NKJ.

What is the will of the Father in heaven?

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[:"blue"]Before I answer, let's hear your view as to what His will is. [/]

Gerry

[Clio]

Hi Gerry -

I think I'm ready to answer, IMHO, the question when does wrong theology become fatal?

First of all... no matter what we do we cannot save ourselves. Therefore, if we do not know something to be sin, and we do it, then I do not believe Abba Father and True Jesus hold us accountable for it.

For instance, someone to whom the Sabbath has never been presented has no idea it is a holy day... especially given the prevalence of Sunday.

I believe that Abba Father looks upon the heart, and it is by His true Wisdom that a determination on whether on not that person is safe to save is made.

As long as a person believes True Jesus to be the Begotten Son of Abba Father, crucified for our sins, raised from the dead by Abba Father on the third day, and confesses such with their mouths and as baptized then they are saved. PROVIDED that they do what they say and seek after His will in their lives in happy obedience.

The rest of the Bible is nothing more than illustrations, guidance, explanations of that simple truth. A true heart seeking after True Jesus and well grounded in the Gospel (NOT PAUL) will be led into all truth. It can't be fatal as long as True Jesus and the Holy Spirit and Abba Father are the center of that person's seeking, search, and desire.

HOWEVER, if the focus shifts from Them to doctrine, then I believe we must test what result the discussion on doctrine is having. Is it decreasing their faith?

2 Timothy says this starting in verse 14: 14 Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Bolding is mine. To the ruin of the hearers. What more is needed than the Truth of the Gospel? That True Jesus gave us a way back to Abba Father, to be at Peace with Him in all things. True Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father save through Him.

Anything that departs from this basis, is toxic. True Jesus and the Holy Spirit will fix everything else.

Clio

[benherndon]

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Again, at what point does erroneous theology become fatal?

Gerry

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>>>When a person no longer loves and believes in God and His Son, Jesus Christ, who died for our sins and was resurrected reconciling us to God; the person who loses all hope, or care, about eternal life under God, and who persists(without remorse) in selfish evil actions which all mankind has known about since creation.

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People who are judgmental of others, projecting their opinion of God's judgment on others, are emotionally damaging the will, belief and hope of others in eternal life by producing hopeless discouragement in them.

Its one thing if some people want to live out an ascetic life for themselves---but all too frequently those very people are the ones discouraging other 'normal minded' folks from contiuing in the faith by being so judgmental of others--- and so often hypocritically so, to boot!. Very few people of the world have wanted to be like the Jews, for example, unless they were born proud to be Jewish in the first place. That's why, to a great extent, Christianity let go of Judaism and most of the unique traces of it in its early years----plus that the Jews categorically rejected Christ.

Why copy a losing 'game'? (The Jews are still looking for a 'Messiah'!.....thus, a losing 'game'......read Paul's hope and predictions on the subject...Rom 9,10,11.)

Adventists should be very careful about how they teach 'the law' and "the SOP" to their children. Failure of the church and us individuals to teach those properly is at least one of the big reasons why 80% of our children leave the church permanently---- in this country at least.

(Looking back with some regret, I know I didn't do it very well myself! I feel the church bears some burden in this respect, also, when our children are sent to its schools.

One of my SDA friends reminds me that the SDA church of 70 yrs ago was not exactly the SDA church of today. The church had its effect on me during my 20 yrs of SDA education in its leading schools---and I, then, taught it to my children in my parenting years before I had really studied the Bible better. "Too soon old; too late smart!" )

Ben

[Guest]

Ben said this. "Adventists should be very careful about how they teach 'the law' and "the SOP" to their children. Failure of the church and us individuals to teach those properly is at least one of the big reasons why 80% of our children leave the church permanently---- in this country at least."

=================================

Children are not dumb! They can see that people/parents TALK does not measure up with their WALK. To say out of one corner of their mouth that this church has a prophet, then to see about 95% of this inspired counsel disregarded by leadership even allowing those in the medical work to remove timbers in an attempt to destroy a solid platform set in position by heaven design is weighing on these childrens minds until they throw up their hands in disgust!! Children will fall into line in being obedient when they see responsible people in leadership being obedient. Don't you know that "any person that cherishes a know error in faith or in practice is under the power of sorcery nd is practicing sorcery on others"???

[Gerr]

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I believe that Abba Father looks upon the heart, and it is by His true Wisdom that a determination on whether on not that person is safe to save is made.

As long as a person believes True Jesus to be the Begotten Son of Abba Father, crucified for our sins, raised from the dead by Abba Father on the third day, and confesses such with their mouths and as baptized then they are saved. PROVIDED that they do what they say and seek after His will in their lives in happy obedience.

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[:"blue"]I have been pondering what you said for several days. I think I can endorse what you said. When I started this thread, I didn't have a clear answer to this question myself, and I was trying to find out what others think. While I say I can endorse what you stated, there is a troubling incident recorded in 1 Ki 13.

Jeroboam had set up idolatrous worship places in Bethel & Dan after he was crowned king by the 10 northern tribes when they split because of the stupidity of Rehoboam. God sent a prophet to cry out against the altar in Bethel & prophesied its eventual destruction. He was EXPLICITLY told to, "not eat bread, nor drink water, nor return by the same way you came." But an old prophet, probably a false one, was about this man of God. So this false prophet went to look for this man of God, and when he found him, invited the man of God to come home & eat bread with him. The man of God replied, "I cannot return with you nor go in with you; neither can I eat bread nor drink water with you in this place. For I have been told by the word of the LORD, 'You shall not eat bread nor drink water there, nor return by going the way you came.'" 1 Ki 13:16,17 NKJ.

But the false prophet said, "I too am a prophet as you are, and an angel spoke to me by the word of the LORD, saying, 'Bring him back with you to your house, that he may eat bread and drink water.'" v18.

The man of God was given an explicit command, just like Eve. He was deceived, just like Eve. Neither renounced God openly. Nevertheless, both died. Fortunately for Eve, she got a second chance but not the man of God. He had the truth, but believed a lie which may seem like a minor thing to many, but it was fatal.

[/]

Gerry

[Clio]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

[:"blue"]I have been pondering what you said for several days. I think I can endorse what you said. When I started this thread, I didn't have a clear answer to this question myself, and I was trying to find out what others think. While I say I can endorse what you stated, there is a troubling incident recorded in 1 Ki 13.

Jeroboam had set up idolatrous worship places in Bethel & Dan after he was crowned king by the 10 northern tribes when they split because of the stupidity of Rehoboam. God sent a prophet to cry out against the altar in Bethel & prophesied its eventual destruction. He was EXPLICITLY told to, "not eat bread, nor drink water, nor return by the same way you came." But an old prophet, probably a false one, was about this man of God. So this false prophet went to look for this man of God, and when he found him, invited the man of God to come home & eat bread with him. The man of God replied, "I cannot return with you nor go in with you; neither can I eat bread nor drink water with you in this place.

For I have been told by the word of the LORD,

'You shall not eat bread nor drink water there, nor return by going the way you came.'" 1 Ki 13:16,17 NKJ.

But the false prophet said, "I too am a prophet as you are, and an angel spoke to me by the word of the LORD, saying, 'Bring him back with you to your house, that he may eat bread and drink water.'" v18.

The man of God was given an explicit command, just like Eve. He was deceived, just like Eve. Neither renounced God openly. Nevertheless, both died. Fortunately for Eve, she got a second chance but not the man of God. He had the truth, but believed a lie which may seem like a minor thing to many, but it was fatal.

[/]

Gerry

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Hi Gerry. Yes, I've run across this incident as well. I see it as a stark warning against disobedience. We cannot know the full circumstances. But I believe for one who searches sincerely and diligently after True Jesus and Abba with a heart attuned to Their will and tests what they are told against the Word of Abba, whether it be the Bible of today, or His explicit commands of this passage, they cannot believe a lie... they cannot be deceived.

The prophet who was not to eat and drink, he never sought Abba's council when the old prophet came to him. When prophets sought Abba's council in prayer, we are told they did so. Usually with a statement like "And Elijah bowed before the Lord in supplication...." or "He fell on the ground and wept before the Lord".

Now it seems to me, that if this prophet, whose very life was at stake, had sought Abba's council when confronted with something totally opposite of Abba's Word to him, that the outcome would have been very different.

And it is the same with fatal theology. If any accepts theology as taught them by another... any other, be it pastor, teacher, theologian, professor, EGW, SDA or not SDA...without checking it out for themselves with prayer, diligent study, and waiting to receive True Jesus deep abiding peace which passes all understanding about it... then they have believed a lie to their own peril.

We are taught throughout the Bible, old and new Testaments, that those who seek Abba Father and True Jesus with a clean heart (sincere, with no ulterior motive) will be found by Him. Not they will find Him, but HE will find them. We are also told that the Holy Spirit will teach us, and lead us into all truth.

Therefore my statements still hold true.

As long as a person believes True Jesus to be the Begotten Son of Abba Father, crucified for our sins, raised from the dead by Abba Father on the third day, and confesses such with their mouths and as baptized then they are saved. PROVIDED that they do what they say and seek after His will in their lives in happy obedience.

That means checking any theology that detracts from the simple, profound truth of the True Jesus Gospel of Peace with Abba Father.

As long as True Jesus is the central focus, nothing is added or detracted from that truth, and the seeker continues to press in to a closer and closer relationship with Him, then True Jesus and the Holy Spirit will make sure that the truths they need to know are revealed to them, and the errors they need to shun are ALSO revealed to them.

Clio