Adverse drug reactions

[Barbara]

In some case I prefer Dr prescribed meds at least then I know the right dose I need. And I would not have another baby with out getting an epi.I was so sick with the flu that they had to induce Emily. They were afraid that she was in trouble due to the fact I was so dehydrated and couldn't keep anything down. I am not talk about a one or two day flu I was sick for a week. With out the drugs I received there id no telling that would have happened to her.

For some thing like colds I will try natural stuff but if it doesn't help them yes I go to the Dr's or take decongestants. I would rather pay $1.94 for a perception then have to shell out 15 bucks for a herbal remedy that may work. I will stick to what will work for me at the cheapest price. Nor do I want to risk the life of my kids trying to treat them with herbs and other stuff. Yes when my kids are sick or family members are sick I do pray for them and ask for healing. In some case he answer and sometime he doesn't. I know that there is a reason God has not healed my sister of her migraines and I know that in the end things will turn out Kay but for now I am glad she can get medical relief from the pain.

[Gerr]

Quote:

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Ed White said:

Gerry said. "P.S. Since you are so high on cayenne pepper, should I make a poultice of it and apply it to my wife's eye for her glaucoma?'

==================================

No I wouldn't do that, just one grain would do wonders. But if it was me and really wanted to help her, I would walk hand in hand BAREFOOTED along the ocean beach from the Mexican border to San Diego claiming bible promises & singing the Fanny Crosby type songs.

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[:"blue"]Perhaps a few drops of capsicum into the eye? [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

Ed, here are a few things you might consider.

1. EGW herself received smallpox vaccination & even urged her helpers to be vaccinated also when a smallpox epidemic was in the area, 2 SM 303.

2. EGW hereself received radiation treatments for a black spot on her forehead, 2 SM 303.

3. When asked by a missionary whose son had died because he refused to use quinine because of what she had said about it in the Testimonies, "Would I have sinned to give the boy quinine when I knew of no other way to check malaria and the prospect was that he would die without it?" In reply she said, "No, we are expected to do the best we can." CH 261.

4. Surgery is NOT a denial of faith, 2 SM 284, and God guides the hands of the Christian surgeon, 2 SM 285.

5. "The idea which you hold, that no remedies should be used for the sick is an error. God does not heal the sick without the aid of the means of healing which lie withing the reach of man; or when men refused to be benefited by the simple remedies that God has provided in pure air & water." 2 SM 262. "Nature will want some assistance to bring things to their proper condition, which may be found in the simplest remedies...." 2 SM 273.

What could be simpler than to use a simple remedy that comes from one of the simplest plant in the vegetable kingdom? Is there anything simpler than a mold that produces antibiotics, without the use of which a child with bacterial meningitis could be dead in 72 hrs?

Gerry

[Guest]

Gerry said this.

"1. EGW herself received smallpox vaccination & even urged her helpers to be vaccinated also when a smallpox epidemic was in the area, 2 SM 303.

2. EGW hereself received radiation treatments for a black spot on her forehead, 2 SM 303.

3. When asked by a missionary whose son had died because he refused to use quinine because of what she had said about it in the Testimonies, "Would I have sinned to give the boy quinine when I knew of no other way to check malaria and the prospect was that he would die without it?" In reply she said, "No, we are expected to do the best we can." CH 261.

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For items 1 & 2 above my answer is the same. I do not study from the SOP books compiled by man after her death. All them DOT/DOT/DOTS in these books [selected Messages] by man only proves that people are gullable. The inspired instruction [without any dot/dot/dots] I received from her pen goes like this. "If anyone wants to know sister White's position on a subject, read her published books." What her son/grandson/granddaughter/conferenceworker said she did or said means very little to me IF it disagrees with the instruction found in her "published books". Sorry I don't trust mans "pen-knife" [Jermiah 36] versions for my getting off this planet alive.

Mr. Robinson words on this 2SM page IS NOT the prophet words!!!

=========================

The #3. item about quinine which does help with malaria, but in a few cases the people are never the same again. The pastor in my home church as a boy had a 6 year old son with him in Central Americia as a missionary came down with malaria and quinine was used. His body grew into a adult but his mind was that of a 6 year old. Malaria was treated in SCORES of cases with success by Dr.David Paulson in a hospital setting without one ounce of guinine. The people that sister White tells about above, she knew that this missionary just "didn't know any other way". So for "him" it was not a sin to use quinine. But Doctors today should be INFORMED and KNOW another way!!! At least the SDA ones! Dr. David Paulson has his method all documened as to what he did with success. But his method was labor intensive that the MDs of today that are trained wrong just don't want to do. You know this, I know this, so go have a good day.

[Gerr]

I would like to pursue this a little further because of the misuse & abuse of the writings of EGW, IMO.

This is what D.E. Robinson have to say in, "Story of Our health Message": "In order rightly to evaluate these [the strong statements she made about drugs], we must know something of the medical practices at the time the statements were made. Such a knowledge can be gained by examining the medical literature of those times..." pp. 13-27.

Because of what EGW said about drugs, a medical students wrote & asked her:

"From our study of the Testimonies and the little work, How to Live, we can see that the Lord is strongly opposed to the use of drugs in our medical work...Several of the students are in doubt as to the meaning of the word 'drug' as mentioned in How to Live. Does it refer only to the stronger medicines as mercury, strychnine, arsenic, and such poisons, the things we medical students call 'drugs,' or does it also include simpler remedies, as potassium, iodine, squills, etc.? We know that our success will be proportionate to our adherence to God's methods. For this reason I have asked the above question." 2SM 278.

EGW's reply:

"Your questions, I will say, are answered largely, if not definitely, in How to Live. [:"red"] Drug poisons mean the articles which you have mentioned.[/] The simple remedies are less harmful in proportion to their simplicity; but in very many cases these are used when not at all necessary. There are simple herbs and roots that every family may use for themselves and need not call a physician any sooner than they would call a lawyer. I do not think that I can give you any definite line of medicines compounded and dealt out by doctors, that are perfectly harmless. And yet it would not be wisdom to engage in controversy over this subject." 2 SM 279.

Unless we take EGW's writings in the context of her times, just as we should do with the Bible, we will surely end up with the wrong conclusions. Mercury, strychnine, & arsenic are well-known poisons. I don't know of any use of these substances in the current practice of medicine with the possible exception of mercury used as an antiseptic (certainly not taken internally) in mercurochrome, or in some vaccines, which will probably be removed from vaccines soon, if they had not done so already.

Gerry

[bevin]

Quote:

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Malaria was treated in SCORES of cases with success by Dr.David Paulson in a hospital setting without one ounce of guinine.

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Interesting. What treatment was he using, how did it work, and what was its success rate?

/Bevin

[Nan]

As a general comment on this discussion, what weight should this quote, from Gerry's last post, carry?

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

And yet it would not be wisdom to engage in controversy over this subject." 2 SM 279.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

[Amelia]

AMEN

[Guest]

Quote:

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Nan said:

As a general comment on this discussion, what weight should this quote, from Gerry's last post, carry?

Quote:

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And yet it would not be wisdom to engage in controversy over this subject." 2 SM 279.

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Please let me add my "AMEN" to that of Amelia utterance, she was probally refering to these words on the same page for her to be so vocal.

"The practitioners are very much in earnest in using their dangerous concoctions, and I am decidedly opposed to resorting to such things. They never cure; they may change the difficulty to create a worse one. Many of those who practice the prescribing of drugs, would not take the same or give them to their children. If they have an intelligent knowledge of the human body, if they understand the delicate, wonderful human machinery, they must know

280

that we are fearfully and wonderfully made, and that not a particle of these strong drugs should be introduced into this human living organism. {2SM 279.2}

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What amazes me is these same practitioners DO prescribing these drugs to their own family members, showing they have faith in them and they were just trained wrong. But when a person that is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he/she with either QUIT being mistaken...OR they will cease to be honest. I've seen a lot of honesty lately lay down dead in the street.

[Nan]

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I've seen a lot of honesty lately lay down dead in the street.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Does any one of us have the right to judge whether another is being honest?

Speaking personally, I practise medicine to the best of my knowledge and ability, using a variety of solutions to the problems presented to me. And I reject the claim of any person not knowing me to be able to judge my honesty and integrity - and I would suppose all others who work in the health field and post here would have the same feeling.

[Amelia]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Amelia utterance, she was probally refering to these words on the same page for her to be so vocal.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

<img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/tongue1.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/tongue1.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/tongue1.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/tongue1.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/tongue1.gif" alt="" />

[Gerr]

Quote:

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Nan said:

Quote:

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I've seen a lot of honesty lately lay down dead in the street.

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Does any one of us have the right to judge whether another is being honest?

Speaking personally, I practise medicine to the best of my knowledge and ability, using a variety of solutions to the problems presented to me. And I reject the claim of any person not knowing me to be able to judge my honesty and integrity - and I would suppose all others who work in the health field and post here would have the same feeling.

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[:"blue"]Ed must believe he is the last honest man on earth. He has nothing good to say about the leadership of the church, thinks all MDs are only interested in second homes, membership in lodges, paying their kids tuition while practicing & prescribing the devil's concoctions. [/]

Gerry

[Guest]

I find it Amazing Facts that the father of medicine [Hippocratic] which was a Herblist never once used insulin or redlin & such. What would he think today to see a profession that TAKES his oath and then administer drug medication with side effect that "do harm" when they swear not to? Has anyone read his oath lately?

The Hippocratic Oath

I swear by Apollo the physician, and Aesculapius, and Health, and All-heal, and all the gods and goddesses, that, according to my ability and judgment, I will keep this Oath and this stipulation- to reckon him who taught me this Art equally dear to me as my parents, to share my substance with him, and relieve his necessities if required; to look upon his offspring in the same footing as my own brothers, and to teach them this art, if they shall wish to learn it, without fee or stipulation; and that by precept, lecture, and every other mode of instruction, I will impart a knowledge of the Art to my own sons, and those of my teachers, and to disciples bound by a stipulation and oath according to the law of medicine, but to none others.

I will follow that system of regimen which, according to my ability and judgment, I consider for the benefit of my patients, and abstain from whatever is deleterious and mischievous.

I will give no deadly medicine to any one if asked, nor suggest any such counsel; and in like manner I will not give to a woman a pessary to produce abortion. With purity and with holiness I will pass my life and practice my Art.

I will not cut persons laboring under the stone, but will leave this to be done by men who are practitioners of this work. Into whatever houses I enter, I will go into them for the benefit of the sick, and will abstain from every voluntary act of mischief and corruption; and, further from the seduction of females or males, of freemen and slaves.

Whatever, in connection with my professional practice or not, in connection with it, I see or hear, in the life of men, which ought not to be spoken of abroad, I will not divulge, as reckoning that all such should be kept secret.

While I continue to keep this Oath unviolated, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and the practice of the art, respected by all men, in all times! But should I trespass and violate this Oath, may the reverse be my lot!"

================================

Yes it is amazing to see many of these other Protestant Churches are at the forefront NOW in warning people to not use drug medications, yet Adventists are sticking tight to their guns as knowledge & just plain common sense goes on without them. Everyone of these school shooting is a direct results of a child being subjected to drug medication for 10-12 years. Back in my neck of the woods, you plant a seed, you are going to get a crop!!

[Barbara]

You have you believes and I have mine. I know that a dr has given meds to my birth dad for his gout and it helped a little and now he is on a special diet and guess what he still in pain and has had take pain pills with codine just to get through a day.

[Bravus]

Ed quoted: </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

If they have an intelligent knowledge of the human body, if they understand the delicate, wonderful human machinery, they must know that we are fearfully and wonderfully made, and that not a particle of these strong drugs should be introduced into this human living organism. {2SM 279.2} (my emphasis)

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I do think the piece that is most often forgotten in this discussion, although it has been raised in this particular thread already, is what Sister White meant by 'these strong drugs'. If, as I believe is the case, she meant strychnine, arsenic, mercury and so on, then I whole-heartedly agree with her! Not a particle of these strong drugs should be introduced into the human living organism!

In that case, we don't really have a statement from her on, for example, something like the newer antibiotics.

[Guest]

Barbara after creation was complete and all who witnessed it THEN, and those of us who read about it NOW where God said it was "very good", I submit to you that God had a "special diet" all picked out that is flawless. Why try and improve on something that is flawless? I heard in person a world famous herblist tell of a aunt of his came to him and asked "How can I get rid of this gorder off my neck"? He said that no one in his family EVER took his advice, but now she was willing. His answer was, "never eat another piece of white bread the rest of your life"! She said "OK, now what else can I do"? "No I am not going to tell you NOTHING else until you go do as I have said". You know what? The gorter went completely in just a few weeks. But you guessed it, she went right back to eating white bread & the gorder came back. Now the trained wrong MDs out there just love that mindset in people, that is the backbone of their profession.

[Gerr]

Quote:

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Ed White said:

I find it Amazing Facts that the father of medicine [Hippocratic] which was a Herblist never once used insulin or redlin & such. What would he think today to see a profession that TAKES his oath and then administer drug medication with side effect that "do harm" when they swear not to?

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[:"blue"]You know how you come across to me, Ed? That your ignorance is only exceeded by your arrogance. Or vice versa. [/]

Quote:

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Has anyone read his oath lately?

The Hippocratic Oath

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[:"blue"] I don't know about the other medical schools, but FYI, the school I graduated from does not believe in Apollo or the gods & goddesses, so we used a modified oath. [/]

Quote:

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I swear by Apollo the physician, and Aesculapius, and Health, and All-heal, and all the gods and goddesses, that, according to my ability and judgment, I will keep this Oath and this stipulation- to reckon him who taught me this Art equally dear to me as my parents, to share my substance with him, and relieve his necessities if required; to look upon his offspring in the same footing as my own brothers, and to teach them this art, if they shall wish to learn it, without fee or stipulation; and that by precept, lecture, and every other mode of instruction, I will impart a knowledge of the Art to my own sons, and those of my teachers, and to disciples bound by a stipulation and oath according to the law of medicine, but to none others.

I will follow that system of regimen which, according to my ability and judgment, I consider for the benefit of my patients, and abstain from whatever is deleterious and mischievous.

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[:"blue"]Most of the physicians I know of, who have gone through 4 yrs of medical school, and then 3 or more years of residency to refine their chosen field, practice medicine according to the best of their ability & judgment. [/]

Quote:

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I will give no deadly medicine to any one if asked, nor suggest any such counsel; and in like manner I will not give to a woman a pessary to produce abortion. With purity and with holiness I will pass my life and practice my Art.

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[:"blue"]Ed, I have already pointed out to you what EGW meant by poisonous drug in a previous post which you conveniently ignored. While I have the greatest respect for the 8 natural remedies, you use them on someone with a bacterial meningitis and I guarantee you that you will have withheld life-saving medicine (antibiotics) and killed a perfectly savable patient with perfectly good method but used in the wrong context.

Whithhold pain medication from someone suffering from pain? That would be like, "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one you says to them 'Depart in peace, be warmed and filled [with the 8 natural remedies],' but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" Jam 2:15,16 NKJ. Parentheses mine. [/]

Quote:

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I will not cut persons laboring under the stone, but will leave this to be done by men who are practitioners of this work. Into whatever houses I enter, I will go into them for the benefit of the sick, and will abstain from every voluntary act of mischief and corruption; and, further from the seduction of females or males, of freemen and slaves.

Whatever, in connection with my professional practice or not, in connection with it, I see or hear, in the life of men, which ought not to be spoken of abroad, I will not divulge, as reckoning that all such should be kept secret.

While I continue to keep this Oath unviolated, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and the practice of the art, respected by all men, in all times! But should I trespass and violate this Oath, may the reverse be my lot!"

================================

Yes it is amazing to see many of these other Protestant Churches are at the forefront NOW in warning people to not use drug medications, yet Adventists are sticking tight to their guns as knowledge & just plain common sense goes on without them. Everyone of these school shooting is a direct results of a child being subjected to drug medication for 10-12 years. Back in my neck of the woods, you plant a seed, you are going to get a crop!!

---

[:"blue"]Since we live in a corruptible body, sooner or later your body will also go the way of all men. Doctors sure would like to hear what you have to say then. [/]

Gerry

[Guest]

Well Gerry I helped my brother in the final stages of his life after the medical profession sent him home to die after doing everthing. Poison/slash/burn then turned him over to Hospice, he came to my home and after being on 500 mg. of Phemon-Barbatal [wrong spelling] for 62 years as a results of being hit on the head in a Adventist school with a history book at age 14. He discarted all drugs on arriving at my home with no siesures, NONE! His testemony to me was, "Ed I haven't been this calm since I was a boy". I said yes, I can see it in your eyes. Now I was told to never touch his stool with bare hands but at times I had to in cleaning up. Anyway 6 months later two cancers appeared on MY chest & forearm, bigger than a half dollar about one forth inch thick. Did I go to a doctor for this?" Of course not! I told God You just keep those thing on me long enough for me to remember not to be a willful trangressor of your health laws again. I applied natural herbs and one day they both fell off without me EVER seeing one drop of blood. The cavity where they came out all filled in with clean flesh where no one could ever tell unless I show them.

Get real Adventist the stones will give your message if you are ashamed to give it.

[Nan]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Anyway 6 months later two cancers appeared on MY chest & forearm, bigger than a half dollar about one forth inch thick. Did I go to a doctor for this?"

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Ed, I admire the way you cared for your brother. Maybe rubber gloves were not available then.

If you did not go to a doctor and have the lesions on your chest and arm tested, how do you know they were cancers? Not all that grows in that form is malignant. Or do you have special diagnostic abilities unknown to the medical profession who usually need to check microscopic appearances, especially of well circumscribed lumps, to diagnose ?

[Amelia]

[]http://www.clubadventist.com/ubbtreads/attachments/182842-Bizarrog.gif[/]

[Amelia]

For Ed, who likes it natural:

Cough mixture made from snail slime

3 Aug 2005

Ananova.com

A company in La Florida, Chile is producing and selling a cough remedy made with snail slime.

Maria Sannino, owner of the snail farm told Las Ultimas Noticias: "I have more than 8500 snails working so we can get material for this ancient cough medicine recipe.

"The snail slime has antibiotic property as well as antibacterial and anti-inflammation ones."

The medicine is called Karacoflu and has artificial flavour of strawberry and avocado.

[Guest]

No Amelia, you are looking in the field glasses backwards again, the camp I am in does not eat unclean food, neither touch this slime, it's the OTHER camp that uses pus from cows, leeches & sorceries making their witches brew. My position is loud & clear as to what heaven approves.

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Nan please tell me one reason I should trust a lab report? If there are 5 empty beds on floor four of an accute care center, it the labs job to be creative!! After all there are kids off in the university that are depending on mom & dad to keep their tutition paid.

[Barbara]

Like Nan said, How do you know if the lesions that were growing on you boby were cancer? I think I would rather have a dr tell me I have cancer then trust myself. Until my grandma went to a dr about a fall she had she didn't know she had cancer.

[Guest]

Quote:

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Barbara said:

Like Nan said, How do you know if the lesions that were growing on you boby were cancer? I think I would rather have a dr tell me I have cancer then trust myself. Until my grandma went to a dr about a fall she had she didn't know she had cancer.

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Cancer is what the "dr" said. When you find one that hasn't been trained wrong, please let me know. I don't need to go and get a second opinion AFTER God gave me the answer I asked for & expected. You are aware that all of heavens biddings are ACTUAL enabelings? Yes I would like to have confidence in someone in the medical field as I have other things to think about, but if they are connected with drug medication, I will keep searching, BECAUSE "God's servants do not administer medicine even if it does relieve present suffering". SOP

[Nan]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Ed White said:

No Amelia, you are looking in the field glasses backwards again, the camp I am in does not eat unclean food, neither touch this slime, it's the OTHER camp that uses pus from cows, leeches & sorceries making their witches brew. My position is loud & clear as to what heaven approves.

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Nan please tell me one reason I should trust a lab report? If there are 5 empty beds on floor four of an accute care center, it the labs job to be creative!! After all there are kids off in the university that are depending on mom & dad to keep their tutition paid.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Questioning others' honesty again Ed?