What are evil methods of growth?

August 2, 2005

I have no idea what evil methods of growth are, but Dennis wanted to make this a separate topic and I'm curious to know what "evil methods of growth" are.

August 2, 2005

Mmmmmm I think there ARE evil methods of growth. I think any teaching that removes the focus from True Jesus, onto self-improvement, self-actualization, or that "scratches the itching ears" of any given congregation such that the True Jesus Gospel of Peace is subordinate to that teaching is an evil method of growth.

I say "evil method" because it detracts from the simple Gospel of True Jesus. It appeals to the "I can do it!" method of salvation... works.

And that is toxic if given free reign.

Clio

August 2, 2005

It seems to me like 'evil methods of growth' is an oxymoron if applied to individual spiritual growth: if it leads to genuine spiritual growth, how can it be evil, and if it doesn't, how can it be growth? <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

If the topic is church growth, then I guess anything that makes the church numbers grow but keeps the members from growing spiritually would be evil.

I share the concern with making church growth numbers the only measure of success: I have a whole problem with the 'only what is countable, counts' mentality. On the other hand, if we believe those who aren't Christians are going to *die eternally*, more numbers of new Christians is an unequivocally Good Thing. Of course they'll have growing to do - we all do - but if they believe, they're saved, and if they're saved they have eternal life instead of eternal death. Praise the Lord!

August 2, 2005

As long as it's the True Gospel of Peace of True Jesus. Which is what I think we are saying, just in different ways.

Nothing else saves... even if couched in "spiritual" terms.

Clio

August 3, 2005

If you are truly SDA, and committed to the teachings of both the bible and the Spirit of Prophecy, evil methods of growth are those methods employed by unsanctified ministers who are employed by the dragon. Anything that fails to distinguish itself from the standards of the world (Rock music, coffee or "soft drink" drinking, sensuality in dress, advocating women for positions of authority or headship in church offices, congregationalism, watering down of standards in general, etc...) is encompassed in this.

August 3, 2005

Yep,

there are few methods of growth as evil as drinking soda - and when a woman does it while in a position of authority, all Hell rejoices

/Bevin

August 3, 2005

Now Brother Bevin, don't forget to use those graemlins to show your humor. <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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Anything that fails to distinguish itself from the standards of the world (Rock music, coffee or "soft drink" drinking, sensuality in dress, advocating women for positions of authority or headship in church offices, congregationalism, watering down of standards in general, etc...) is encompassed in this.

I can agree with sensuality in dress and watering down standards. Another I would add is baptising those that have not accepted Christ. Often times people are baptised just because they agree with the Adventist church but they have not actually accepted Christ. More enphasis can be placed on Adventist doctrine than on heart conversion.

August 3, 2005

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"....evil methods of growth are those methods employed by...." persons that choose to condemn others for not believing 'their' way and forget that 'Christ Crucified' is the only way to eternal life.

Why don't you just say it??? Stop beating around the bush... <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/sad25.gif" alt="" /> Radical Islamic terrorists!!!! They condemn others for not believing their way and forget that Christ crucified is the only way. <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I agree. Using radical Islamic terrorists for church growth is eviiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiil <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

August 3, 2005

Like I said...the shoes are comfortable and look appealing to you and you wear them well...

August 3, 2005

Quote:

Why don't you just say it??? Stop beating around the bush... Radical Islamic terrorists!!!! They condemn others for not believing their way and forget that Christ crucified is the only way.

I agree. Using radical Islamic terrorists for church growth is eviiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiil

Them too... !!!!!!!!!!

August 3, 2005

Quote:

Anything that fails to distinguish itself from the standards of the world...advocating women for positions of authority or headship...is encompassed in this.

You know Dennis, I have been saying all along that holding Ellen White in a position of authority is an evil method of growth. Its gratifying to see that we finally agree on something.

August 3, 2005

Very funny Richard....

August 3, 2005

Quote:

wicklunds said:

If you are truly SDA, and committed to the teachings of both the bible and the Spirit of Prophecy, evil methods of growth are those methods employed by unsanctified ministers who are employed by the dragon.

Are you saying only SDA's have sanctified ministers? It seems that way.

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Anything that fails to distinguish itself from the standards of the world (Rock music,

Rock music? C'mon! It's not the music itself Dennis. Classical music at one time was the "Rock Music" of it's day. It's the attitude and focus that the music you are listening to engenders in your spirit.

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coffee or "soft drink" drinking

Dennis, Dennis, these are health issues, not salvation issues. And any who has taught you they are salvation issues has LIED to you.

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sensuality in dress

Sensuality in dress is dependent on the culture of the country in which the woman lives. And what does sensuality in dress have to do with church growth? It is nothing more than a symptom anyway. And in some cases, might not even be that. What about a woman who wants to wear the best she has... and it doesn't conform to someone's notion of modesty... but she can't afford to go buy new... should she stay away from the feet of True Jesus because someone is more interested in judging and condemning her than nourishing her spiritually?

This also is NOT a salvation issue. And it is the teaching of the Gospel of Peace and the love of True Jesus that grows a church. No church will grow without the blessing of the Holy Spirit. It appears you are advocating church growth through works rather than through Salvation by Faith in True Jesus.

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advocating women for positions of authority or headship in church offices,

It is clear True Jesus expected women to have positions of authority and teaching in the church... Consider this:

He taught female students.

Luke 10:38 Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house. 39 And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word. 40 But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me. 41 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: 42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

He called a woman a daughter of Abraham as equal to men.

Luke 13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

He accepted women in his inner circle.

Luke 8:1 And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him, 2 And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils, 3 And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.

He appeared first to a woman after his resurrection.

Matthew 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Women were present at Jesus' death.

Matthew 27:55 And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him: 56 Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children.

Mark 15:40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome; 41 (Who also, when he was in Galilee, followed him, and ministered unto him;) and many other women which came up with him unto Jerusalem.

John 19:25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.

Jesus repeatedly expressed concern for widows.

Luke 20:46 Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts; 47 Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.

He ignored ritual impurity laws .

Mark 5:25 And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years, 26 And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse, 27 When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment. 28 For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole. 29 And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague. 30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes? 31 And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me? 32 And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing. 33 But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth. 34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.

He talked to foreign women.

John 4:7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink. 8 (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.) 9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans. 10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Jesus changes the male-favored doctrine of divorce:

Mark 10:11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. 12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

After Jesus' resurrection,a women receives the first apostolic commission of any human.

Matthew 28:5. And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. 6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. 7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.

With just the evidence above, not considering the love and fairness Jesus expressed to all humanity, or his promise of salvation for all humans, the statement you made regarding women does not appear to be the doctrine or the practice of the Son of God. Women are equal to men, they should be treated with equality and respect, and no doubt, will be so in the true Kingdom of God.

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congregationalism

Erhm.... what is this?

My head is spinning... What you appear to be advocating is lethal theology. It is not consistent with Biblical teaching.

Clio

PS: Edited for formatting.

August 4, 2005

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Rock music? C'mon! It's not the music itself Dennis.

From everything I have seen the words are what determine if a certain type of music is harmful or not. I am missing something?

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these are health issues, not salvation issues.

I think here we have to respect each others' walk with Christ. For some, violating health principles could be an issue of salvation. Once we accept salvation (free gift from God [grace]) our reaction is to live in faith (also a gift from God [grace]) and walk in the Spirit (another gift from God [grace]) and experience victory over the sins revealed to us (another gift from God [grace]).

Now each of us are in a different place in our walk in the Spirit. God did not call every Israelite to go preach in Ninevah - only Jonah. So not every Israelite sinned by not going - only Jonah. The Spirit does call for some of us to do things others are not called to do. If we resist the spirit we resist His grace. We are saved by grace through faith but we must accept that grace and not resist it. If the Holy Spirit has convicted a brother not to drink soda (especially that with caffiene) who am I to tell him it is not an issue of salvation - for him?

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Sensuality in dress is dependent on the culture of the country in which the woman lives.

This is true BUT culture needs to be considered and respected. An African lady may be able to walk topless in Africa but when she comes here to America we would expect her to wear a modest shirt - especially to church. Many areas of the world have nude beaches and it is a nonsexual thing for many that participate. But that doesn't mean Adventist churches in America should have nude swimming socials.

August 4, 2005

Quote:

Clio said:

Quote:

coffee or "soft drink" drinking

Dennis, Dennis, these are health issues, not salvation issues. And any who has taught you they are salvation issues has LIED to you.

Not to evade the importance of salvation, Clio, but I'm not satisfied that our place in heaven is the most important issue. When we ignore the instructions and counsels of God, to follow a pathway different than our Father has outlined, unless it is out of ignorance it leads to setting up our own standards for government, which leads to unbelief and rebellion, which is exactly what the prince of darkness followed.

I am not talking about perfect performance. Only about deliberate disregard for that which God felt was important to put in His instructions for spiritual wellbeing.

[:"red"] "Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth." [/] 3 John 1:2 KJV

[:"red"] "Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God." [/]

1 Corinthians 10:31 KJV

Blessings!

August 4, 2005

No disagreement LHC, but to call them "evil methods of growth" !?!

The only REAL point to growing a church is to bring in those who are in need of the Master Physician. The ONLY way to minister to these is to do as Jesus did... and meet them where they are and meet their needs.

Perhaps that means having both Coffe and herbal tea when you know there are non SDA members of the community at some program at the church. It's not going to defile the sanctuary to serve coffee and be a hospitable host meeting them where they are instead of trying to enforce (from their view point) fanatic ideas on them.

We want them to desire the Joy in Jesus that leads to salvation. All other things the Holy Spirit will start heart-convicting them of.

Seeing healthy people, who partake of herbal teas, or some other substitute for coffee when they want a hot drink will surely prompt some of them to ask questions, and maybe try it for themselves. When they ASK then we should tell about the health benefits of abstaining from caffeine and what Abba Father had to say about fueling the human body.

Jesus sent his disciples out to evangelize and minister to the people with the injunction to eat what was set before you.... If we are to reach out to our communities, invite them into our sanctuaries where we present the message of Abba's Word and the True Gospel of True Jesus Peace, we have to meet them where they are.

We are not to teach the false gospel of salvation by works, which is where we are perilously close to being.

There are all kinds of ways to make the same kind of allowances for spiritual injured people who normally would look askance at a "peculiar" people, and not hear the Sabbath message, the True Jesus Gospel of Peace, or anything else, out of the mouths of those weird cult-like Adventists...

But who, if you offer them a cup of coffee, tea, perhaps a slice of banana bread (bananas, walnuts, cinnamon... mmmmm much better than cookies, less sugar too) will try to not be too obvious as they carefully search for the brainwashing you're sure to try on them... and reassured by how normal we are, listen with open ears and an open heart.

That's not to say we shouldn't also have juice, herbal teas, Pero, fruit, trail mix, or some other healthy snacks and beverage choices available. Just that we're talking about growing the church.

NOT THE SDA DENOMINATION!!! THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING!!!!

We are talking about helping people be comfortable in our churches where they can hear True Jesus Gospel of Peace, and the other Bible truths we can share with them that they may have never heard before.

Nor am I talking about condoning such on a regular basis for regular members... But who are we to judge? Abba Father works on one area at a time... and then allows a rest. Who is to say when He will get to diet, when there are severe spiritual issues of trust, faith, hope, redemption, salvation, True Jesus love that need healing first so the patient doesn't die before we can get to the issues of diet.

Clio

Edited to add: --------> getting off my soapbox now. Wicklunds attitude really hits some hot buttons for me. He expects to be a pastor, yet drives the very ones away he would minister to by his rigid, un-Christlike attitudes. There are ways and ways and ways to set a good example, an example people will ask you questions about opening up opportunities to witness, without being offensive and un-Jesus like.

I would never want to be like Wicklunds... and I would never ask him any questions because I might become like him.... But True Jesus? I'd run to HIM in a heartbeat. If we claim to belong to Him, it seems to me we should follow His example and be recognizable as His...

August 4, 2005

I do not expect to be a pastor, never have... I only pursued an education that would assist me with the possibility of doing some form of public ministry. Yes, pastoring is a large chunk of that, but, personally, I see a greater value of ministering in irregular lines as Ed White so aptly puts it.

Dennis

August 4, 2005

Quote:

Clio said:

No disagreement LHC, but to call them "evil methods of growth" !?!

Thank you for answering my post. Lacking for time I cannot answer all that I wish to right now. However the above statement I feel comfortable with as it shows by question your consideration for the needs of others first. It reminds me of the quote by Ellen White, [:"blue"] "When we are liable to err, it is better to err on the side of the people." [/] She goes on to say there is no necessity of error but I do not feel myself fully in that position, except as the Holy Spirit gives the discernment needed for the benefit of the person/s we might be giving witness.

Any disagreement I may have with your post is more in method than it is in principle, and I am fully confident that the divine love given for the sake of others through the disciple, will meet with any problems that may arise as indicated by 1 Cor 13.

[:"red"] "If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. " [/]

[:"red"] "Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.

For we know in part and we prophesy in part;

but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away." [/] 1 Cor 13:1,2,8-10

Blessings!

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What are evil methods of growth?

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