Your story: How did you become a SDA ? Or left & came back?

[Jeannieb43]

Laurie, that's an interesting story. Do you have a link to your grandfather's autobiography?

[Laurie]

Hi, Jeanne -

A link? I've got a photocopy of it at home.

[bevin]

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I suspect the biggest reason is pride (then as now).

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The studies say that there are three basic reasons for leaving. (a) Sincere disagreement with some fundamental interpretations of the Bible, ( the organization does not meet the individuals basic needs for comfortable fellowship, or © they no longer wish to be organized christians at all.

Many ex-SDA are still very sincere and motivated christians. To accuse them of leaving because of pride is to refuse to face up to this fact. Many ex-SDA take up active membership in other churches.

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JOINING

My parents were SDA - both adult converts. By 1965 my father had stopped attending because he could not stand the disorganisation and the lies that were being actively told by the denomination about the origins of the SOP writings. In particular, it became well-known in the late 1950's that EGW had literary assistants, and had copied both words and structure from other writers - but the denomination was actively denying it.

As an intelligent and thoughtful yet trusting child, I believed the simplistic interpretations of the origins and meaning of the Bible - I sincerely believed that the elders and preachers were smart men.

STAYING

As a teenager, I began to realise that the colporteurs, elders, pastors were just sincere but uneducated people. I heard them state as facts enough things that I knew to be wrong that they lost credibility. Still the theologians and higher-up people I heard sounded credible.

Then the White Lie and the Ford controversy hit. Suddenly I discovered the 1919 Bible Conference material. I discovered all about the EGW white-wash. The over-simplifications of complex issues of scriptural interpretation.

My wife and I moved to the USA in 1982, and we almost decided to drop our church membership during the move. However the need for fellowship was strong, and the other christian denominations had even more flaws in their beliefs, and the local SDA church was VERY friendly, so we stayed SDA and became very active members.

Furthermore the denomination seemed to have learnt something from the Ford and Rea crises and became much more tolerant and accepting of an range of intelligent views of the origins of the bible and SOP.

LEAVING (already partially written in the Origins area under the title From a Short-Age Christian to a Long-Age Christian to ex-SDA)

In another post I have listed some of the evidence that finally persuaded me that the long-age people were right.

About 1980-1985 I realized that whenever I looked out the window of church, I drove down a road, I looked down from an airplane, I went to a museum, the world shouted "LONG AGE" to me.

I had to change my understanding of the book of Genesis. To match archeology I had to see it as the product of generations of oral histories, legends, camp-fire stories. God had never intended it to be a science text.

I still have an all-powerful God with a plan of salvation. I just have a less simplistic view of the origins of the world on which Eden was placed.

When I talked to SDA friends who were teaching science at SDA colleges and universities, I discovered I was not alone. The biology department at Andrews University had hall-way displays that clearly explained evolution and made no attempt to disprove it. The SDA church publications in general avoided the topic. It was no big deal. I was later to discover than about 50% of the science faculty at Canadian Union College were closet long-age believers.

It didn't matter. Nobody minded.

Furthermore the information about the origins of the SOP was not being denied. EGW was being seen, correctly, as not settling theological issues. 1844 was correctly being seen as a debatable topic.

Then, in 2000-2002, it began to change. The SDA mainstream publications, including the Adventist Review and the SS lesson pamphlet clearly hit strongly that SDA's should believe short-age creationism, 1844, and EGW.

In my local church, elders misrepresented and criticised my beliefs from the platform and during communion service.

There were other stresses in my work and family life going on at the time, and there were other aspects of SDA theology that I never saw strong Biblical support for.

One day I realized "there is too much stress in my life". There were three sources - family, work, and church. I refused to abandon my family, I needed my job, maybe I should drop my denomination?

A few weeks later I came home after yet another horrible church board meeting (I was the treasurer) and found a Clifford Goldstein editorial equating evolutionists and Satanists.

I wrote my letter of resignation that week, within a month had it passed at a business meeting, and have only been inside an SDA church about ten times since then.

I really should thank Clifford for spurring me into making the decision to resign - It certainly reduced my stress levels, and has given me time to take up being a volunteer EMT in my town, and do many other things that have enriched my life.

/Bevin

[Laurie]

I'm probably too much of a simpleton to see it as a problem, but what's the big deal about E G White having literary assistants who worked with her on her books? Didn't Paul have helpers? Why should this be an issue? Of course, not having been raised an Adventist no doubt colours my understanding of this issue.

[David_McQueen]

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bevin said:

The studies say that there are three basic reasons for leaving. (a) Sincere disagreement with some fundamental interpretations of the Bible, (

the organization does not meet the individuals basic needs for comfortable fellowship, or © they no longer wish to be organized christians at all.

/Bevin

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Although I wouldnt say I have left the church, am still a member and sometimes worship/speak at SDA churches, but mentally I am at (a) and (b)

[bevin]

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what's the big deal about E G White having literary assistants who worked with her on her books?

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The 'big deal' is the SDA church and the EGW Estate taught from about 1910 to about 1970 that she was an uneducated girl from Maine who personally wrote all this marvellous stuff that the Lord had shown her in visions and dreams - and that the volume and quality of the work was evidence of her gift.

/Bevin

[LifeHiscost]

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Laurie said:

but what's the big deal about E G White having literary assistants who worked with her on her books?

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That is essentially the way I feel. The same with the furor over plagarism, a man made law that was devised for the sake of one person gaining all the profits from an idea that could prove useful to all mankind, if it could be afforded by free access.

[:"red"] "That which has been is what will be, That which is done is what will be done, And there is nothing new under the sun." [/] Ecclesiastes 1:9 NKJV

[:"red"] " For who regards you as superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?" [/]

1 Corinthians 4:7 NASB

Those who wish to prove the correctness of their choices that are contrary to a clear evidence of God's direction, will always find difficulty with God's chosen instruments.

How many do we see in the Scripture who suffered under the abuse of those who wished to be friends of this world.

[:"red"] "....do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God." [/] James 4:4 NASB

Keep the faith!!

[Laurie]

The White Estate made those claims? No doubt. I certainly wouldn't argue the point. The White Estate was wrong to put that twist to Mrs. White's writings (though to extent they are right). Why would they do that? Because they didn't have sufficient faith in her gift and in her experiences and felt they needed to prop her up. That was very wrong for them to do - for any number of reasons. The Lord did "show her marvelous stuff in visions and dreams" and I don't believe her prophetic gift can be disputed. Unfortunately, until Jesus comes this church of ours and its various entities will be filled with severely faulted humans who are capable of great perfidy, cruelty, intellectual dishonesty, guile, jealousy, and hatred. Oh, don't let me leave the sanctimonious, venal, and self serving off the list. The human condition hasn't changed in six thousand years and won't until Jesus comes. I'm neither surprised, discouraged nor especially dismayed by the way people in our church behave. Grieved a bit but not surprised. There's a shaking coming (is it here already?) and the chaff will be sifted out, those with uncircumcised hearts will fall away. Can we persevere to the end?

[Laurie]

The White Estate made those claims? No doubt. I certainly wouldn't argue the point. The White Estate was wrong to put that twist to Mrs. White's writings (though to extent they are right). Why would they do that? Because they didn't have sufficient faith in her gift and in her experiences and felt they needed to prop her up. That was very wrong for them to do - for any number of reasons. The Lord did "show her marvelous stuff in visions and dreams" and I don't believe her prophetic gift can be disputed. Unfortunately, until Jesus comes this church of ours and its various entities will be filled with severely faulted humans who are capable of great perfidy, cruelty, intellectual dishonesty, guile, jealousy, and hatred. Oh, don't let me leave the sanctimonious, venal, and self serving off the list. The human condition hasn't changed in six thousand years and won't until Jesus comes. I'm neither surprised, discouraged nor especially dismayed by the way people in our church behave. Grieved a bit but not surprised. There's a shaking coming (is it here already?) and the chaff will be sifted out, those with uncircumcised hearts will fall away. Can we persevere to the end?

[Jeannieb43]

IMHO, the Clifford Goldstein editorials have done more harm than good, overall. But I can't really see his heart. I just know he comes from the legalistic Jewish background, so it could be expected that his writings would reflect that perspective. I've come to avoid his writings, intentionally. Although for some I realize they've been a great help.

What I'm trying to say is, we're all of many and varied backgrounds, yet Christ died for each one of us. He accepts us regardless of our race, color, educational background or orientation.

I do believe, however, that the more highly educated one becomes, the more difficult it is to find a comfortable church home. You are probably the best educated person in your church, especially including your pastor. It's tough - sitting in the pew and listening to poor grammar, poor homiletics, and poor exigesis all coming from the pulpit. But we do have the power and ability to study on our own. And I love listening to taped sermons from other preachers whom I admire. They keep me spiritually fed.

And nowhere is it written that one's name must be listed on an Adventist church roll in order to go home to heaven with Jesus when He comes.

[aldona]

Jeannie said:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

I do believe, however, that the more highly educated one becomes, the more difficult it is to find a comfortable church home. You are probably the best educated person in your church, especially including your pastor. It's tough - sitting in the pew and listening to poor grammar, poor homiletics, and poor exigesis all coming from the pulpit.

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I agree with you, Jeannie...the more education one has, the tougher it is to be happy as a church member......but not always for the same reasons.

I don't care about poor grammar etc...when God communicates something that He wants me to hear, it can be through the most broken words and the most uneducated speaker. Or even through silence.

What I find hardest to take is the automatic assumption out there that just because one is educated, one's spirituality and walk with God is automatically suspect. Read many of our church's publications, the writings of Ellen White, and even many threads on this forum, and count the number of statements disparaging education and educated people. I might add that this is not confined to the Adventist church, but I have seen it in other denominations too.

When a whole category of people is consistently denigrated and treated with suspicion like this, there is only so long we can put up with it before it wears us down, and we come to only one conclusion...we are not welcome in the church and everyone would be happier if we just stayed away.

aldona

[LynnDel]

Aldona,

That is unfortunately true to some extent in some areas, and my family experienced exactly that ourselves very recently - a kind of class distinction in the church (try being a lawyer, and see where it gets you), promoted by the leader of the church.

A wise church leader (pastor) appreciates all his church members for who they are, not being intimidated by those with higher degrees, but happy to use them in God's service - my positive experiences related to that ideal have been greater than the negative one. Class distinction to the detriment of Christian brotherhood is not the way it always is.

LynnDel

[LifeHiscost]

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Laurie said:

Unfortunately, until Jesus comes this church of ours and its various entities will be filled with severely faulted humans who are capable of great perfidy, cruelty, intellectual dishonesty, guile, jealousy, and hatred. Oh, don't let me leave the sanctimonious, venal, and self serving off the list. There's a shaking coming (is it here already?) and the chaff will be sifted out, those with uncircumcised hearts will fall away.

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But for the grace of God, there go I. In the meantime I choose to put this principle to practice, as the Lord permits.

[:"red"] "Love bears up under anything and everything that comes, is ever ready to believe the best of every person, its hopes are fadeless under all circumstances, and it endures everything [without weakening]." [/]

1 Corinthians 13:7 AMP Brackets theirs

[:"red"] " BRETHREN, IF any person is overtaken in misconduct or sin of any sort, you who are spiritual [who are responsive to and controlled by the Spirit] should set him right and restore and reinstate him, without any sense of superiority and with all gentleness, keeping an attentive eye on yourself, lest you should be tempted also.

Bear (endure, carry) one another's burdens and troublesome moral faults, and in this way fulfill and observe perfectly the law of Christ (the Messiah) and complete what is lacking [in your obedience to it]." [/]

Galatians 6:1-4 AMP Brackets theirs

Blessings!!

[Kountzer]

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D_Bishop said:

I grew up in a small SE Texas town called Silsbee. We were the average middle class, or slightly working class black family. My Mom, and I, and later my step dad, lived next door to my grandparents. We had another relative, Uncle Tiny, as we called him, who lived just out of town, out in the woods. Uncle Tiny had a cabin that he built out there, also a well and a outhouse that was further back in the woods. Uncle had come back from the Korean war and decided to semi drop out of society. He worked as a handy man, doing electrical work, carpentry, this and that, a sort of jack of all trades.

Lots of folks in town, including some of the family, thought Uncle was a bit strange, living out in the woods alone. They thought it especially strange that he had this weird thing about stopping everything on Saturdays, and having church. After coming back from the war, Uncle attended the regional VA hospital in Austin, Tx., for various war related problems he had. While there someone, a white man, as uncle likes to tell it, gave him a bible study card for some vop bible lessons. He accepted the things he learned as bible truth and became an adventist.

There were no adventist churches near by, at least none that were predominately black. There was an ostinsibly white adventist church in nearby Beaumont, Tx., but uncle, back then, had seen too much racism, lynchings, etc., to feel comfortable with worshipping with white people. You have to understand, some of the nearby towns were places like Vidor, Tx, and a town many thought as a racially benign called Jasper, Tx.

So Uncle would have church by himself. Sometimes he would invite some of his neighbors, those that would come. Saturday evenings, around dusk, he would come up to the grandparents house, his parents, and we would talk. The family would sort of chide him about his sabbath keeping, and from that a discussion would start. My grandfather, who was a local deacon and who did some speaking in the local baptist and methodist churches, would be the lead person arguing, and disagreeing with my Uncle, his son, about the sabbath issue.

After awhile they would get out the big family bible, and have a bible study/set to. All the family would gather around them. Sometimes other aunts and uncles and cousins from Houston would be there. It would be my grandfather against my uncle, and everyone else watching, and backing my grandfather. My grandfather would make a point, and my uncle would counter that with a verse. The verse would be so clear and so unmistakable that I would here some of the other grown up say, "it sho does say that, um hum".

This went on, off and on, for some time, perhaps years. Then one year the sda churches in Houston were having a big tent effort in the 3rd ward area of Houston, near Tx Southern University and the University of Houston. Uncle persuaded all the family members to come out to the meetings, which were conducted by EE Cleveland. After those six weeks or so of meetings were through, several of my greater family became sda, including my grand parents and my mom. That's when I first became acquainted with the sda church, and all that. Afterwards, I was on quite a few occasions one of those 2 or 3 having church with my uncle in his cabin out in the woods.

DB

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An update: Silsbee took a direct hit from hurricane Rita. So I'm told, half the town was destroyed. The phone line is working, & I've talked to my Uncle 2 or 3 times. He says that he has all the basic provisions. Various church groups bring him supplies from FEMA. At night he doesn't have any electric light. As mentioned earlier, he's used to roughing it.

DB

[Naomi]

Hello D_B,

I just read your post and when I saw the name of the town I knew they have serious problems in the area. I have friends all over the area and it is pretty awful. Will be praying that your Dear Uncle shall continue to retain his courage and faith. That he continues to receive the provisions required for his survival. The damage will not soon be repaired.

Naomi

[Taylor]

I love this story about your family! I have a feeling I would have enjoyed sitting in on some of those Bible discussions. Your uncle sounds like a special person. Thanks for sharing!

[Taylor]

I am not saying whether I agree with you or not about Clifford Goldstein's editorials. However, I think you might be surprised at his incredible raw honesty, reading his editorial in the August 25 edition of the Review. Here are sections of it.

"I got to the General Conference buidling after four yeras in the church, a convert screeching with zeal, thrilled at discovering that not only did truth exist but I had found it. As such I was one self-righteous and sanctimonious terror, kind of an erumpent Yiddish Torquemada ready top urge out all heretics. With my theology sniffers in full-throttle, I could tell the saints from the apostates here at the General Conference simply by watching what they ate. I knew who was on the side of truth, righteous, and goodness, and who wasn't, after just a five minute conversation with them, even if I did all the talking!....

Life was so much simpler then, when truth and error were so easily distinguishable. Now, though, things that I would have burned at the stake over, or gladly burned others over (without a tiwinge of guilt, but on the contrary satisfied that I had done the Lord's will), I don't give a rip about. More so, I discovered that many of the folks I was ready to consign to Dante's seventh circle of hell because of their theology were dedicated christians who loved thelOrd and the church (in fact, I often got along better with them than with those whose theology is like mine.). In short, the older I get, that which was once black and white has at times morphed into shades of gray....."

It continues of course and he makes some very valid points. I have a hunch you would enjoy reading it.