Savage Killing of British Soldier In Broad-Day-Light

[John317]

http://news.yahoo.com/video/british-soldier-savagely-killed-london-131643707-cbs.html

Part of news article:

One of the alleged attackers was a British Christian who converted to Islam, according to Anjem Choudary, the former leader of the group Al Muhajiroun, a banned Islamist Organization.

Choudary told ABC News that the killer's name is Michael Adebolajo, who converted to Islam in 2003 and changed his name to Mujahid, meaning one who wages jihad.

Choudary said Adebolajo was never a member of Al Muhajiroun but knew him because he attended the group's rallies from about 2005 to 2011.

After 2011, Choudary said, Adebolajo stopped attending rallies. Choudary said he has no idea what Adebolajo has been doing since, and he said that Adebolajo never suggested any antipathy to British soldiers or any willingness to commit violence.

"He was a very peaceful man," Choudary told ABC News. "Never saw any kind of violence streak in him. Very quiet, timid man, in fact."

After the attack, instead of fleeing the scene, Abedolajo and his alleged accomplice invited eyewitnesses to interview them on their camera phones. Abedolajo spoke to one eyewitness while holding two bloody knives and his hands stained deep red, used rhetoric similar to that used in martyrdom videos.

"We swear by almighty Allah, we will never stop fighting you until you leave us alone, your people will never be safe," Abedolajo said calmly, according to ITV News, which first obtained the video. "Tell them to bring our troops back so we -- so you -- can all live in peace."

The attack occurred a few hundred feet from an army barracks in Woolwich, home to the Princess of Wales' regiment and the King's Troop, a ceremonial unit. Authorities have increased security at the 10 army barracks across London, according to British officials.

Source of article: http://gma.yahoo.com/london-attack-man-h...topstories.html

[phkrause]

Its ones like this, that make the rest look back. Really sad that people use there religion to promote violence.

[olger]

Islam is a religion of peace.

If you happen to be a muslim.

g

[Tom Wetmore]

Islam is a religion of peace.

If you happen to be a muslim.

g

So is Christianity. But try to convince those who are not Christians. Especially those being assaulted in various ways and degrees by Christians, even while those erstwhile Christians sanctimoniously invoking the name of the Lord while doing so and often in a misguided effort to justify their hatred and acts of hatred.

Sound familiar?

Much of the Muslim world where we have been engaged in fighting a war on terror, see it as a war on Islam and would find it very hard to believe us telling them that we are a peace loving people and that Christianity is a religion of peace.

Maybe a good start would be to change the climate by laying aside our saber rattling rhetoric of false accusations and actually take actions that are peaceful in the way Jesus admonished us to do. "Love your enemies..."

[olger]

I thought you might come on here and defend Islam, but I wasn't certain.

thanks and rejoice always

G

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: olger

Islam is a religion of peace.

If you happen to be a muslim.

g

So is Christianity. But try to convince those who are not Christians. Especially those being assaulted in various ways and degrees by Christians

So tell me Tom, because it sounds like you would know. When and where was the last time a Christian hacked an innocent unsuspecting muslim to death in the street with a meat cleaver, because he was a muslim? Or for any other reason?

[Guest]

Islam is a religion of peace.

If you happen to be a muslim.

g

That's not true my friend. If you happen to be a female muslim, you can be killed for any number of reasons. Ever hear of honor killings? There was one done (that we know of) right here in the states, not too long ago. Where the man killed his own daughter.

Ran her down like a dog in the street, with his car.

[Tom Wetmore]

So tell me Tom, because it sounds like you would know. When and where was the last time a Christian hacked an innocent unsuspecting muslim to death in the street with a meat cleaver, because he was a muslim? Or for any other reason?

Spend some time reading here - http://www.religioustolerance.org/reac_ter1.htm

[olger]

Originally Posted By: olger

Islam is a religion of peace.

If you happen to be a muslim.

g

That's not true my friend. If you happen to be a female muslim, you can be killed for any number of reasons. Ever hear of honor killings? There was one done (that we know of) right here in the states, not too long ago. Where the man killed his own daughter.

Ran her down like a dog in the street, with his car.

[Guest]

It's ok. We all make mistakes. I've done it before.

[Gordon1]

Part of the problem is that purportedly 'Christian nations'

- those whose Presidents & Prime Ministers say "God Bless our nation", and whose currency is stamped "In God we trust" -

have been waging nuclear war on brown/Islam/non-Christian nations for over two decades two. Think 2 Gulf Wars, Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Libya.

Depleted Uranium is spread far & wide, affecting both Western troops and most certainly their "host" countries.

Birth defects are through the roof in Iraq, G.I.s are finding the same problem.

Another sign that time is almost over.

Read an American army doctor's report after serving during the 1st Gulf War (1991)

- a leading world expert on radiation effects:

http://stopuraniumwars.blogspot.ca/

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: RLH

So tell me Tom, because it sounds like you would know. When and where was the last time a Christian hacked an innocent unsuspecting muslim to death in the street with a meat cleaver, because he was a muslim? Or for any other reason?

Spend some time reading here - http://www.religioustolerance.org/reac_ter1.htm

Ok Tom, I read the whole thing. I didn't really see anything that approaches what we are talking about here. Here are some of the things that are listed there:

-Six bullets shattered windows of a mosque in Irving, TX. $3,000 in damage was caused.

-Four bricks were thrown through the windows of a Muslim bookstore in Alexandria, VA. Also in Virginia, two mosques reported vandalism.

-In Canada, the front doors at mosques in St. Catherines, ON and Montreal, PQ were fire-bombed, with minimal damage.

-The British Broadcasting Commission (BBC) reported that there had been many death threats and assaults against Muslims.

-In Lynnwood, WA, a mosque was vandalized.

-A man drove his car through the front entrance of Parma Mosque in Cleveland OH.

-In Gary, IN, a man wearing a mask pumped over 20 bullets from a high-powered assault rifle at a Muslim, Hassan Awdah. He survived. Hassan is a U.S. citizen, born in Yemen.

-Adel Karas, 48, an Egyptian-American grocer was shot and killed near his International Market store in San Gabriel, CA. He was a Copt -- neither Muslim nor Arab. No money was taken. Police are investigating the murder as a possible hate crime.

-In Chicago, a Molotov cocktail was thrown at an Arab-American community center. There were no injuries and little damage.

-In Suffolk County, NY, a man allegedly made anti-Arab threats and pointed a handgun at the employee of a gas station. He was arrested.

Not quite the same if you ask me. In fact, not one case of a Christian hacking a muslim to death in the street with a meat cleaver because he was a muslim. Or for any other reason.

The question was:

"When and where was the last time a Christian hacked an innocent unsuspecting muslim to death in the street with a meat cleaver, because he was a muslim? Or for any other reason?"

Frankly I'm surprised that you offered this up as a comparison.

[Tom Wetmore]

You left out several of the killings and there is more than what you cut and pasted here... But even the few that you include are strong evidence of the point I was making. But seriously, are you really trying to justify and minimize even those by comparing the manner of killing?!? Or that the deadly attacks sited were not successful! Dead is dead.

And I seriously doubt you read the whole thing. The site has far more to it than the one page that I linked. Go back and read more.

And the point that I made is also supported by a long history of persecution and violence by Christians against non-Christians, and even fellow Christians. Many of the early settlers to this country were fleeing that specifically. (And on a far lesser level, there is the venom and contempt and snarkiness express here too often toward the non-Christians, and non-Adventist, in our midst...)

I think Jesus made a point along these lines of overlooking planks in our own eyes and stone throwing from those that have sins of there own.

[Tom Wetmore]

I thought you might come on here and defend Islam, but I wasn't certain.

thanks and rejoice always

G

How is pointing out that there is a dark side to Christians despite our messages of peace and love a defense of Islam! Before we run to clean up the neighbor's house, we need to stop and look around at the mess in our own and get working on cleaning our own house first. That's all I am saying.

[Guest]

You left out several of the killings and there is more than what you cut and pasted here... But even the few that you include are strong evidence of the point I was making. But seriously, are you really trying to justify and minimize even those by comparing the manner of killing?!?

I'm not trying to justify anything. My point is about the degree of violence, and the frequency of it. Christians, and even non-Christians just don't do what muslims are doing today.

You just don't see Christians hacking people up in the street, or setting off bombs to kill innocent men women and children at sporting events. Or running over their daughters with their cars, and calling it an honor killing.

I asked you to show examples of Christians doing that, and you can't do it.

Even non-Christians aren't doing that. You don't see Jews sending suicide bombers into crowds of innocent people, or setting off bombs at sporting events. Or running over their daughters with their cars.

Even if you can find the odd case here or there, it is not on any kind of a scale comparable to what muslims are doing.

You will never hear a Christian of ANY denomination say: "It is ok to kill infidels".

Not even the Baptists say things like that.

When you try to say that Christians are just as bad, like you have here, it looks like you are ok with the level of violence coming from the muslims, and excusing it. That may not be the case, but that is the appearance that it gives.

As far as getting the plank out of my own eye goes, I haven't killed any Christians OR non-Christians lately. So I am looking at those who are.

[olger]

It's ok. We all make mistakes. I've done it before.

[Tom Wetmore]

Of the 1.6 billion Muslims in the world today, how many of them are engaged in these kinds of violence? If you check many of the sects of Islam, how many of them are engaged in or advocating this sort of thing?

But go back to my original post. You say there is no evidence of Christians committing violence against Muslims. Over 2 trillion dollars worth of war spending by America may be a bit hard for the Muslim world to overlook. Listen to the rhetoric of those most zealously pushing for the war on terror being waged in Islamic countries. They are very often also among the loudest voices proclaiming that America is a Christian nation, founded on Christian principles. And even some of the war rhetoric has unfortunately taken on a religious tone. That was a major part of what I was saying. Try to convince the Islamic world that we are all that different; that we have message of peace and more importantly that our ways and teachings are better and the truth.

That brings me to a point that troubles me most. We as Christians, and more specifically Adventists, believe we have a God given job to take the gospel to the Muslims of this world. All that has happened over the last decade or more has only made that task many times more difficult. And if we keep mocking their faith, pointing to the worst examples of people associated with Islam,and telling untruths about them and their faith, how do you expect them to listen to us or take our message seriously? And if we are not truthful about them and their religion, don't you think they might question our truthfulness about ourselves and our religion?

[Guest]

...and telling untruths about them and their faith, how do you expect them to listen to us or take our message seriously? And if we are not truthful about them and their religion, don't you think they might question our truthfulness about ourselves and our religion?

I won't argue most of your points, but this one I will. I haven't said anything that isn't true. Do you think the news article of this thread, about the man being hacked to death with a meat cleaver, by a man spewing muslim rhetoric is untrue?

None of what I said is untrue either.

[LifeHiscost]

Have you ever known or been made aware of any devout Christian who has brutally murdered anyone in the name of Christ? Saul (later named Paul) was responsible for the killing of many Christians, but after receiving Jesus, he died rather than lift his hand in effort to save himself or earn his way into heaven. Anyone following the teachings of Jesus, have no injunction coming from Jesus, to slay the enemies of the Holy Word.

That is not true of those who kill in the name of other gods, who I believe are following the the voice of the god of this world.

"If the Good News we preach is hidden behind a veil, it is hidden only from people who are perishing. Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

You see, we don’t go around preaching about ourselves. We preach that Jesus Christ is Lord, and we ourselves are your servants for Jesus’ sake."2 Corinthians 4:3-5 NLT

" Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’"Matthew 7:19-23 NKJV

God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

And the point that I made is also supported by a long history of persecution and violence by Christians against non-Christians, and even fellow Christians.

You are putting up evidence about people who profess to be Christians, not true followers of Jesus. Even people from Arabic nations are moved by the Holy Spirit when reading the Gospel of Jesus. And many have had dreams of Him as a Person returning to this world.

Maybe it would be good for you to listen to programs put out by 3ABN.org/com or Hopetv.com, to find out what real Christians are doing for their enemies, some yielding up their lives as a result of being willing to focus on the task Jesus has given us to accomplish, or in many cases, dyng as a result of converting to the faith of Christ.

"If someone claims, “I know God,” but doesn’t obey God’s commandments, that person is a liar and is not living in the truth."1 John 2:4 NLT

Those who masquerade as Christians can hardly be held up as examples of Who it is wisest to follow.

"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."John 8:44 NASB

God cares!

[Gordon1]

First hand testimony by U.S. Infantry with helicopter footage...

"This happens every day in Iraq" - GI Ethan McCord:

http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=127&contentid=10581

[Guest]

Have you ever known or been made aware of any devout Christian who has brutally murdered anyone in the name of Christ?

Excellent point. No I haven't even heard of such a thing.

Can you imagine someone like the Fort Hood shooter shouting, as he's mowing the people down, "In the name of Jesus, In the name of Jesus Christ!" ?

It doesn't happen.

[Ted Oplinger]

Truthfully, I think John 16:1,2 fits right here: those slaying in the name of God do not know the Father nor Jesus...no matter what one's profession.

Hence, neither side of the Crusades had God's blessing, and neither side was representing God. Likewise, the Inquisitions and the Puritan intolerance during Colonial times.

I wold like to say, though, that in the last 200 years, unprovoked attacks by Christians toward non-Christians number far, far less than those perpetrated by Muslims toward non-Muslims over the same period. It isn't even close. Even if one factors in the Northern Ireland conflict last century (professed Christian on professed Christian), the balance barely budges.

To my understanding, most of the attacks of Christians to non-Christians over that time come as reprisals - revenge for attacks against Christians. most of the reprisals come as a response to...Muslim violence to begin with.

Sorry, Tom, but one site does not the truth make, and I do not accept the biased sample fallacy, in reasoning that only a few of 1.6 billion does not represent the whole. The sad fact is, extremely FEW Muslims speak out against violent jihad. Those who do, do so at fear for their lives.

The pointed fact is that those who are true fundamentally devoted to the Q'uran full well understand the violent jihad, and forced conversion/belief commanded within those pages. Those equally fundamentally devoted to the Bible are strikingly different to the spread of the Gospel - we realize the Gospel is not served by violence against non-believers, violent conversion and forced belief.

Therein lies the difference between true Christian belief and true Muslim belief.

Blessings,

[LifeHiscost]

First hand testimony by U.S. Infantry with helicopter footage...

"This happens every day in Iraq" - GI Ethan McCord:

http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=127&contentid=10581

This, of course, reveals individuals, willing to take commands during a time of war and does not reveal Seventh Day Adventists who have refused to take up weapons of warfare, whoever they have been trained against. Perhaps a reading of the story of Desmond Doss, active as a medical corpsman during the second world war, might be worth reading to get some insight into what a person, kept by the Spirit of God to be sure, is willing to do rather than protect their own skin at the expense of another human being's life.

Is there anyone who believes this instruction still to be valid?

"But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."Joshua 24:15 NKJV

"And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."Revelation 12:17 NKJV

"Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he *said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”"Revelation 19:10 NASB

God cares!

[Guest]

Truthfully, I think John 16:1,2 fits right here: those slaying in the name of God do not know the Father nor Jesus...no matter what one's profession.

Hence, neither side of the Crusades had God's blessing, and neither side was representing God. Likewise, the Inquisitions and the Puritan intolerance during Colonial times.

I wold like to say, though, that in the last 200 years, unprovoked attacks by Christians toward non-Christians number far, far less than those perpetrated by Muslims toward non-Muslims over the same period. It isn't even close. Even if one factors in the Northern Ireland conflict last century (professed Christian on professed Christian), the balance barely budges.

To my understanding, most of the attacks of Christians to non-Christians over that time come as reprisals - revenge for attacks against Christians. most of the reprisals come as a response to...Muslim violence to begin with.

Sorry, Tom, but one site does not the truth make, and I do not accept the biased sample fallacy, in reasoning that only a few of 1.6 billion does not represent the whole. The sad fact is, extremely FEW Muslims speak out against violent jihad. Those who do, do so at fear for their lives.

The pointed fact is that those who are true fundamentally devoted to the Q'uran full well understand the violent jihad, and forced conversion/belief commanded within those pages. Those equally fundamentally devoted to the Bible are strikingly different to the spread of the Gospel - we realize the Gospel is not served by violence against non-believers, violent conversion and forced belief.

Therein lies the difference between true Christian belief and true Muslim belief.

Blessings,

Once again Ted, you have put into words, the truth of the matter.