Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted May 27, 2013 Administrators Share Posted May 27, 2013 Ted, that just falls into the "no true Scotsman" fallacy. Moderate Muslims (overwhelmingly the majority) will tell you that those jihadist are not true Muslims either. There are extremists and crazies in every religion and culture. And I am not in any way ignoring the significant prevalence of them within Islamic culture. It is of grave concern and shame to those moderate Muslims, just as the Westboro Baptist Church and the Jeremiah Wrights and the Crusades are to most Christians. Nor am I suggesting any proportionality. But looking at the span of history doesn't really favor any people group as examplars of consistent moral conduct or free of the stench of not living up to their best ideals. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted May 27, 2013 Administrators Share Posted May 27, 2013 Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore ...and telling untruths about them and their faith, how do you expect them to listen to us or take our message seriously? And if we are not truthful about them and their religion, don't you think they might question our truthfulness about ourselves and our religion? I won't argue most of your points, but this one I will. I haven't said anything that isn't true. Do you think the news article of this thread, about the man being hacked to death with a meat cleaver, by a man spewing muslim rhetoric is untrue? None of what I said is untrue either. No. I didn't say it was untrue, nor any of the violence by any of the extremist crazies. Note carefully what exactly I was responding to when I came into the conversation. Mocking the Muslim religion and distorting it for a chuckle or to further some ignorant ideology tends to fuel the fires of hatred, retribution and violence that is at the core of all this far more than the religion itself. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 Quote: And the point that I made is also supported by a long history of persecution and violence by Christians against non-Christians, and even fellow Christians. You are putting up evidence about people who profess to be Christians, not true followers of Jesus. Even people from Arabic nations are moved by the Holy Spirit when reading the Gospel of Jesus. And many have had dreams of Him as a Person returning to this world. Maybe it would be good for you to listen to programs put out by 3ABN.org/com or Hopetv.com, to find out what real Christians are doing for their enemies, some yielding up their lives as a result of being willing to focus on the task Jesus has given us to accomplish, or in many cases, dyng as a result of converting to the faith of Christ. "If someone claims, “I know God,” but doesn’t obey God’s commandments, that person is a liar and is not living in the truth."1 John 2:4 NLT Those who masquerade as Christians can hardly be held up as examples of Who it is wisest to follow. "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."John 8:44 NASB God cares! Forsooth! Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 No. I didn't say it was untrue, nor any of the violence by any of the extremist crazies. Note carefully what exactly I was responding to when I came into the conversation. Mocking the Muslim religion and distorting it for a chuckle or to further some ignorant ideology tends to fuel the fires of hatred, retribution and violence that is at the core of all this far more than the religion itself. Maybe they need a new Savior, one who says things like "Love your enemies and do good to those who mistreat you." They could trade in their koran for a Book that says "Let us love one another for love is of God.." That simple exchange would trigger a recession in the meat cleaver market. Islam requires no heart conversion - "just bring your hatred and join us - then you will have an outlet and an excuse for your unresolved bitterness." If anyone condemns your violence, we will just tell them that they are Islamophobic... Rejoice in the truth, `g Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators debbym Posted May 28, 2013 Administrators Share Posted May 28, 2013 Quote: Have you ever known or been made aware of any devout Christian who has brutally murdered anyone in the name of Christ? point well made, the first killing of a believer in Christ was done by a fellow believer in Christ and that was Cain. the spirit of religious intolerance has been flamed ever since. Hatred and hate killing is what any human beings are capable of and can only be cured and stopped by the power of God restored within the human heart. Quote deb Love awakens love. Let God be true and every man a liar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 Quote: Have you ever known or been made aware of any devout Christian who has brutally murdered anyone in the name of Christ? point well made, the first killing of a believer in Christ was done by a fellow believer in Christ and that was Cain. the spirit of religious intolerance has been flamed ever since. Hatred and hate killing is what any human beings are capable of and can only be cured and stopped by the power of God restored within the human heart. You appear to be saying that Cain - son of Adam - was a Christian. How do you support that? Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted May 29, 2013 Share Posted May 29, 2013 Quote: "just bring your hatred and join us - then you will have an outlet and an excuse for your unresolved bitterness." Except for the lack of population at the time, I'm satisfied that was the same spirit Cain had. And that would be described like this: "For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies."John 8:44 NLT God cares! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted May 29, 2013 Share Posted May 29, 2013 I must say Forsooth, G Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted May 29, 2013 Moderators Share Posted May 29, 2013 That is *not* what Islam says. Actually read, learn and know. Ignorance is the fuel of violence. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted May 29, 2013 Moderators Share Posted May 29, 2013 http://www.russellbrand.tv/2013/05/woolwich/ Lots of really good sense. No doubt it will be impugned for its source here... but I'd rather read wise words from a fool than foolish words from 'wise men'. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted May 29, 2013 Share Posted May 29, 2013 Ignorance is the fuel of violence. (...a lot of issues as well) Truth is important. (to whom?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted May 29, 2013 Share Posted May 29, 2013 I'd rather read wise words from a fool than foolish words from 'wise men'. some choice. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted May 29, 2013 Share Posted May 29, 2013 Muslim violence is the elephant in the room. It's past time to deal with it. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Originally Posted By: Bravus I'd rather read wise words from a fool than foolish words from 'wise men'. some choice. Except that fools don't have any wise words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Proverbs agrees. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 Ted, that just falls into the "no true Scotsman" fallacy. Moderate Muslims (overwhelmingly the majority) will tell you that those jihadist are not true Muslims either. There are extremists and crazies in every religion and culture. And I am not in any way ignoring the significant prevalence of them within Islamic culture. It is of grave concern and shame to those moderate Muslims, just as the Westboro Baptist Church and the Jeremiah Wrights and the Crusades are to most Christians. Nor am I suggesting any proportionality. But looking at the span of history doesn't really favor any people group as examplars of consistent moral conduct or free of the stench of not living up to their best ideals. Actually, it doesn't. As John 16:1,2 were words spoken by Christ Jesus as to what kind of persecution true faith would be up against in the future - including being slain in the name of the Father, are you suggesting Christ was forwarding the "no true Scotsman" fallacy when He said those participating in such murder were not truly worshipers who know the Father? As for "moderate" Islam...if they were truly in the right, why then do they allow their religion to be hijacked by the so-called "fringe crazies?" In truth, those we call the "moderate Muslims" are regarded in Islam as being on the fringe. They either pose as "moderate" to deceive the infidel, but implicitly agreeing with their jihadist brethren by their notable silence and lack of confrontation with these jihadists, or they are truly on the fringe and are disobedient to major sections of the Q'uran. If these moderates were truly the majority...why is it they always refuse to wage jihad against these jihadists? Or are they worse sheep than the average American voter??? Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 Ignorance is the fuel of violence. (...a lot of issues as well) Truth is important. (to whom?) If ignorance is the fuel of violence, do then the followers of Islam corner the market on ignorance? They don't seem too awful concerned about tolerating and understanding what any unbeliever believes... Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 Muslim violence is the elephant in the room. It's past time to deal with it. I'm sure you agree, in dealing with it, the child of God must leave his meat cleaver at home. And as an Adventist save its' use for chopping wood, or perhaps frozen phony baloney. God cares! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted May 31, 2013 Administrators Share Posted May 31, 2013 As for "moderate" Islam...if they were truly in the right, why then do they allow their religion to be hijacked by the so-called "fringe crazies?" In truth, those we call the "moderate Muslims" are regarded in Islam as being on the fringe. They either pose as "moderate" to deceive the infidel, but implicitly agreeing with their jihadist brethren by their notable silence and lack of confrontation with these jihadists, or they are truly on the fringe and are disobedient to major sections of the Q'uran. If these moderates were truly the majority...why is it they always refuse to wage jihad against these jihadists? Or are they worse sheep than the average American voter??? Uhh.... Because they are not jihadists?!?! Because they really are peace loving Muslims?!?! Because they do understand tht violence to fight violence doesn't result in less violnce, but rather more violence!?!? Because they are as afraid of these wackos as the rest of the world!?!? Because they see how successful we are in our war against these terrorists?!?! Why does any society tolerate tyrants, extremists and aberrant behavior?!?! Why do the abused continue to live with the abuser!?!? Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 Quote: Why does any society tolerate tyrants, extremists and aberrant behavior?!?! Why do the abused continue to live with the abuser!?!? Because the well behaved are always hoping the abuser will change for the better. There comes a time when those that abuse will have sinned away their day of grace. As the war in heaven eventually had to be isolated to a testing ground here on this earth, prepatory to final destruction, so also those on earth who vent their misbegotten anger on others, will find their day of unremitting anguish and remorse. "And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[a] in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."Revelation 12:7-9 NKJV "For the Lord will execute His sentence upon the earth [He will conclude and close His account with men completely and without delay], rigorously cutting it short in His justice." Romans 9:28 AMP brackets their's LHC In the meantime it is important not to prejudge the individual, though the profession may cloak a dangerous ulterior motive. "For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God. Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other. " 1 Corinthians 4:4-6 NKJV God cares! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 Quote: Uhh.... Because they are not jihadists?!?! Because they really are peace loving Muslims?!?! Because they do understand tht violence to fight violence doesn't result in less violnce, but rather more violence!?!? Because they are as afraid of these wackos as the rest of the world!?!? Because they see how successful we are in our war against these terrorists?!?! That would be logical! I can't say that I know the answer...I don't personally know any Muslims. But I do wonder how some on these forums feel they know what a Real Muslim is like or believes. How many do they know? How many have they polled? How many have studied their beliefs? etc...etc. Even we, here are the forum, have many differences in how to interpret the Bible! Different regions of this country and around the world can have and do have different view points. There are several views on what 'REAL SDAs' believe or should believe! So, that leads me to the conclusion that we may not know what 'REAL Muslims' believe or practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeb Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 That would be logical! I can't say that I know the answer...I don't personally know any Muslims. But I do wonder how some on these forums feel they know what a Real Muslim is like or believes. How many do they know? How many have they polled? How many have studied their beliefs? etc...etc. Even we, here are the forum, have many differences in how to interpret the Bible! Different regions of this country and around the world can have and do have different view points. There are several views on what 'REAL SDAs' believe or should believe! So, that leads me to the conclusion that we may not know what 'REAL Muslims' believe or practice. I know, or more accurately, knew one in the 90's. We worked together for a few months and spent a fair amount of time talking to one another. He was an Egyptian Muslim, and pretty devout. I invited him over for dinner one time and asked him to bring his family. He was very concerned about what we would feed him, and I told him it would be vegetarian so he agreed. However, he would not bring his wife along so my wife and I could meet her. He didn't want us to know her for some reason, but I never found out why. I do know he was pretty strict with her as he made her walk behind him and kept all but her eyes covered up. I have to say I really liked the guy and it seemed to be reciprocated. We stayed in touch by letter for a couple of years after he got his old job back and moved away, but gradually lost touch with each other over time. Curiously enough he worked in the airline industry as an engineer. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted June 1, 2013 Share Posted June 1, 2013 Originally Posted By: olger Muslim violence is the elephant in the room. It's past time to deal with it. I'm sure you agree, in dealing with it, the child of God must leave his meat cleaver at home. And as an Adventist save its' use for chopping wood, or perhaps frozen phony baloney. God cares! For- sooth. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted June 6, 2013 Moderators Share Posted June 6, 2013 I wold like to say, though, that in the last 200 years, unprovoked attacks by Christians toward non-Christians number far, far less than those perpetrated by Muslims toward non-Muslims over the same period. I think many Muslims would consider colonialism as an attack on Muslim people. During colonial times there were numerous Christian attacks against non-Christians. I'm surprised you are not aware of that. Quote: It isn't even close. Even if one factors in the Northern Ireland conflict last century (professed Christian on professed Christian), the balance barely budges. Why the use of the term professed? Would you say that the IRA bombers were not really Christians? On what basis would you make that assertion? Quote: To my understanding, most of the attacks of Christians to non-Christians over that time come as reprisals - revenge for attacks against Christians. most of the reprisals come as a response to...Muslim violence to begin with. Accepting what the Bible says about revenge means that these avenging Christians are no different from the Muslims who you say are simply committing violence. I'm sure the Muslims would argue that their attacks are revenge also. It would be interesting for you present an example of Muslim violence that is not connected some act of past Christian violence. Quote: The pointed fact is that those who are true fundamentally devoted to the Q'uran full well understand the violent jihad, and forced conversion/belief commanded within those pages. Those equally fundamentally devoted to the Bible are strikingly different to the spread of the Gospel - we realize the Gospel is not served by violence against non-believers, violent conversion and forced belief. There are many, many church attendees in the USA who are fully supportive of the many wars the USA has fought in the name of freedom and justice which is really code for American cultural Christianity. As the missiles fly they will sing their hymns and eat their potlucks. Take a look at any list of US military interventions across the world and one would be hard pressed to believe that Christian Americans don't believe in violence against non-believers. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 Interesting comments.....how quickly we forget the violence of the Old Testament. Hmmmm, even early settlement of this country was through violence started by christians...against heathens. All though this is in the past, it does demonstrate the humans have never been without violence when it comes to religion/belief systems. I wonder if we are not seeing more now, by fundamentalist sub groups, because of the strength gained in modernization of the marginalized cultures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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