Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted June 3, 2013 Administrators Share Posted June 3, 2013 I agree that there are more important things to concern oneself with than what other people are doing, drinking, eating, smoking. However... It has been some years since I've been inside an Adventist church, but when the occasion arises again, I will be very disoriented if the congregation smells like tobacco and has booze on their breath, and ashtrays at the entry. There are certain things that a person likes to depend on in life, and one of those things for me is that an Adventist church has clean air inside, and their potlucks are all vegetarian. So, your challenge is to find a balance between retaining what identifies you as a unique congregation while being caring and considerate to those who don't quite walk the walk. It is a challenge to both create a safe and comfortable place for those with our traditional values, standards and lifestyle choices and a place that is safe and comfortable for those who don't even understand the idea of church because they have walked a completely different walk. Part of it is understanding our mission. Are we here to bring in those in the later group or to create a safe place for ourselves and to protect ourselves from them. "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 Quote: Part of it is understanding our mission. Are we here to bring in those in the later group or to create a safe place for ourselves and to protect ourselves from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators debbym Posted June 3, 2013 Administrators Share Posted June 3, 2013 Quote: Originally Posted By:Tom Wetmore Quote: Originally Posted By: D.A. Wintsmith I agree that there are more important things to concern oneself with than what other people are doing, drinking, eating, smoking. However... It has been some years since I've been inside an Adventist church, but when the occasion arises again, I will be very disoriented if the congregation smells like tobacco and has booze on their breath, and ashtrays at the entry. There are certain things that a person likes to depend on in life, and one of those things for me is that an Adventist church has clean air inside, and their potlucks are all vegetarian. So, your challenge is to find a balance between retaining what identifies you as a unique congregation while being caring and considerate to those who don't quite walk the walk. It is a challenge to both create a safe and comfortable place for those with our traditional values, standards and lifestyle choices and a place that is safe and comfortable for those who don't even understand the idea of church because they have walked a completely different walk. Part of it is understanding our mission. Are we here to bring in those in the later group or to create a safe place for ourselves and to protect ourselves from them. 60% of SDA's eat meat, and the membership of the church in their lives represents pretty much the population of our society in child abuse and wife beating and criminals. we are a family and in the SDA church family we have all kinds of the church family tree. and those who know God are lead by Jesus within the church to love the church as he loves it. he says for us to be perfect even as he is perfect, and to show his love the same for the world as for the Church. and to love the church members when they are obedient and when hey are disobedient. when we are exclusive we teach our children that if they fall outside of our special ideals then God does not love them the same anymore. this is for the purpose of exposing to us our incapacity to love as he loved in our humanity. this does not mean i bring home a church member who is a pedophile to play with my children in the back yard, while i fix dinner. But it means i do not own the church, and if a registered sex offender desires to attend church i respectfully and graciously show them a form to sign agreeing to being assigned two people who will attend them from a comfortable distance so as to not humiliate them, to keep our members safe and to protect them from the risk of false accusations. Placing ashtrays outside the church is really wonderful, and shows respect for the grounds, and accommodation towards those who are smoking. God's love does not stop toward anyone. we have limitations, and we must pray and be cleansed of all our selfishness and our capacity to love blessings more then we love those who Jesus died for. this does not mean i am asked to smoke, or lower the standards of Holiness in my life. We worship God in my church, confessing our failures, and seeking new life and new power to live for God. and if anyone wants to come and is willing to be in God's presence, we rejoice. I know with all my heart there is no one that God is not speaking to every moment of their life. He wants to speak more and more directly and let them experience a demonstration of that love in humanity so they can see it more and more clearly and through the darkness see Jesus and respond. and my humanity is like a dark glass that others can see him dimly. God help us to become transparent to show his love and not our judgement of them. it is God's Church he alone is able to convict and to cleanse. my words are not holy. my voice cannot convict of sin. Only God can do this, i cannot bring myself up to the standard of God, only God can do this in me also. i can teach the word of God, i can teach by actions and by speaking, but i cannot apply anything to someone's soul, God alone has done this for me and will do it for others. we are to life up Christ, but i tell you Jesus is the mighty rock, and much too heavy for me to lift, or for any human being to lift. God must lift up Jesus within us, we are completely unable to do this in out strength and in our way. ok i am off my soap box... sigh deb Love awakens love. Let God be true and every man a liar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.A. Wintsmith Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 At the synagogue where I work, most of the congregation don't keep kosher, or at least not kosher to the point of having two refrigerators, etc., but all meals served and prepared at the synagogue itself are strictly according to the laws of kashrut. There isn't any judgment or condemnation about a person's individual choice. It's just that the practice of kashrut is a part of what identifies Judaism, So while you are meeting together where Jewish religion is practiced, you abide by tradition. In the Adventist congregations I knew, many people ate meat at home, but the church potlucks were vegetarian. When they got together as a group, they kept by the traditional customs although they might do differently at home. It wasn't a big deal if people ate meat at home, although smoking and drinking was looked at askance. But it's been a while. Perhaps things have changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon1 Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 It's just that the practice of kashrut is a part of what identifies Judaism D.A. you've made a salient point here. Organized Judaism has maintained its identity in this and other areas. Adventism has lost its identity in dietary distinction and health reform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 Quote: Adventism has lost its identity in dietary distinction and health reform. And I agree. Some Adventists have. Usually it is those who no longer burden Christ with their burdens. "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls."Matthew 11:29 NASB God cares! Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Don777 Posted June 4, 2013 Members Share Posted June 4, 2013 We should guard the feelings of each other. Bluntly addressing matters doesn't seem very helpful. A speaker with wisdom can address some issues. Friends who associate can share values in the discussion venues of the church, i.e. Sabbath School, fellowship meals, etc. Educational programs such as cooking schools, seminars, etc. can present the "present truth" for today... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 HOnest answers mode-on Ok, so let me get this straight..... it's ok to bring meat to a potluck, provided it's clean meat...? It's ok to allow other members to drink alcohol, or smoke....???? Is it ok to defile the temple of God, which we consider as the body? The evidence of eating meat is definitely defining as to it's worthiness to be considered "food"..... What is the goal here people??? What is the standard of being a Christian? Specifically a Seventh day Christian? If you do not live up to those goals, can you be a part of the group known as "Seventh day Adventist Christian"? Perhaps I do not understand this tepidness to reaching goals and living a lifestyle that is considered of heaven here and now.....I understand the occasional meat dish, especially from newbies who are not established in the faith....But I would have thought that the goal of SDAs was to be vegetarian in the least, and to be transitioning in the meantime.....And any discussion toward the people who are bringing meat to the potluck would result in a quiet, teaching moment....not a condemnation, but rather an explanation of why most of the congregation is trying of new reciepes involving vegetarian meals... Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.  George Bernard Shaw  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Don777 Posted June 9, 2013 Members Share Posted June 9, 2013 @ Neil D. Meat at fellowship dinners: Most, if not all, fellowship dinners I have attended have been 100% vegetarian. Though, I have heard of some churches where their dinners are not so. I agree with your emphasis on quiet teaching moments. The church is to nurture not destroy. Adventist message as a whole package The Adventist church has a holistic message combining Faith in Jesus, keeping of the commandments of God, Jesus is coming again, a view of God's compassion even in eternal judgment, healthful living, care for all humanity, the gifts of the Spirit, etc... The lifting up of all features The church should intentionally lift before society, including and especially its members, all the features of its message in an appropriate manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzarkWoman Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 Quote: Adventism has lost its identity in dietary distinction and health reform. And I agree. Some Adventists have. Usually it is those who no longer burden Christ with their burdens. God cares! That would be because it is not what one eats or doesn't eat that will get a person to be with Jesus. It has nothing to do with someone supposedly no longer trusting Jesus. It is not a big deal and those that make it a big deal are the ones who happen to be judging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 Yes, yes and yes! Quote: It has nothing to do with someone supposedly no longer trusting Jesus. It is not a big deal and those that make it a big deal are the ones who happen to be judging. This goes back to a topic about which 'sins' as seen by others allows us in the .org. We spend way too much time looking at the negatives of others lives, according to our beliefs, instead of the positives as Christ sees when looking at each of us. Why would He have chosen to pay the penalty of sin for us if not? Telling people what to do accomplishes 'squat', how we live our lives makes the difference to others, in their observation of us. Walk the belief instead of talking the belief!! really very simple.....if we want it to be!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Naomi Posted June 9, 2013 Administrators Share Posted June 9, 2013 Telling people what to do accomplishes 'squat', how we live our lives makes the difference to others, in their observation of us. Walk the belief instead of talking the belief!! really very simple.....if we want it to be!!!! If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 Quote: That would be because it is not what one eats or doesn't eat that will get a person to be with Jesus. It has nothing to do with someone supposedly no longer trusting Jesus. It is not a big deal and those that make it a big deal are the ones who happen to be judging. That would then apply to the Apostle Paul? When one stops listening to what the Word says, that is essentially closing one's ears to Christ and belief in what He instructs through His servants. "It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak."Romans 14:21 NKJV "If I can thank God for the food and enjoy it, why should I be condemned for eating it? So whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. Don’t give offense to Jews or Gentiles or the church of God."1 Corinthians 10:30-32 NLT God cares! Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 Quote: Walk the belief instead of talking the belief!! really very simple.....if we want it to be!!!! Well I'm glad you made it plain what you believe Jesus meant when He said to those who came to Him, follow Me. "When Jesus returned to Capernaum several days later, the news spread quickly that he was back home. Soon the house where he was staying was so packed with visitors that there was no more room, even outside the door. While he was preaching God’s word to them..."Mark 2:1-3 NLT "Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If any of you wants to be my follower, you must turn from your selfish ways, take up your cross, and follow me."Matthew 16:24 NLT Yes, it is! Very simple. God cares! Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 16, 2013 Moderators Share Posted June 16, 2013 [That would be because it is not what one eats or doesn't eat that will get a person to be with Jesus. It has nothing to do with someone supposedly no longer trusting Jesus. It is not a big deal and those that make it a big deal are the ones who happen to be judging. Perhaps. My question would be - what is the attitude behind the eating or abstaining? If a person reads the Word - ESV | ýIs 66:17 “Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one in the midst, eating pig’s flesh and the abomination and mice, shall come to an end together, declares the LORD. ESV | ýPhp 3:19 Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things. ESV | ý1 Co 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, What does the attitude say about their relationship with Jesus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 16, 2013 Moderators Share Posted June 16, 2013 I have a conundrum. At my church we have 2 new members who are takig classes to be baptised. Last week we went out after church to a restaurant where alcohol was being served, and the 2 members partook of some alcohol. Apparently my other friends noticed this but I didn't. I kinda feel guilty that maybe we should have said something. I know for a fact that they know the Adventist message on not drinking. Dealing with perceived wrongdoing is very difficult for me in general. There is no question in my mind that if it were strychnine that we saw someone was about to drink that we would all immediately warn the person. How well do you know the other person? In what spirit, tone, are you doing it? Is it the right place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators debbym Posted June 16, 2013 Administrators Share Posted June 16, 2013 Quote: Originally Posted By: DougI have a conundrum. At my church we have 2 new members who are taking classes to be baptized. Last week we went out after church to a restaurant where alcohol was being served, and the 2 members partook of some alcohol. Apparently my other friends noticed this but I didn't. I kinda feel guilty that maybe we should have said something. I know for a fact that they know the Adventist message on not drinking. the person who is giving them studies and working with them and their questions should be the one and they would have the time and place to deal with this. It is the work of the Spirit to deal with it. They may not have grown to the place of addressing this issue. deb Love awakens love. Let God be true and every man a liar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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