Nicodema Posted September 4, 2005 Share Posted September 4, 2005 The level of ignorance and hypocrisy evidenced in certain posts here is in large part why I don't bother coming here anymore. If we are going to call any natural disaster a judgment from God then we have to call them all as such. Notice how those pushing for this viewpoint (all one of them) were those all up in arms when it was JOKINGLY suggested last year (or was it the year before?) that the hurricanes that ripped through Florida's "red" districts but spared the "blue" were evidences of God's displeasure with those not spared. Spare me and everyone else here the garbage. New Orleans rocks. I love(d) the cemetaries there, the bistroes, the Cajun Zydeco music, the cypress trees hung with Spanish moss, the beautiful priestess who guided our tour through the voudon museum. New Orleans has (had?) its problems like every other city, its pockets of crime and corruption, but it is (was?) a jewel and will always have a special place in my heart. I love you, New Orleans. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted September 4, 2005 Moderators Share Posted September 4, 2005 s'great to see you here anyway Nico, even though I can definitely understand your frustration and the decision to spend less time here. You're definitely missed, but I think you've made a sensible decision, and I'm often awfully tempted to follow suit... Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Naomi Posted September 4, 2005 Administrators Share Posted September 4, 2005 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Neil D said: Actually, now that I have time to respond to your answer,Naomi, it is stupidity. It is stupidity that causes religion [of any persuasion] to answer this way to the general public. Religion , when it acts this way, only serves to inflame and wound. Where is the mercy, the healing influence of religion in times of crisis? That is the very legitament reason that religion [of any persuasion] exists today. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Neil, I missed your post earlier. The thing we need to learn is how to be a Christian without becoming religious. Naomi Quote If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted September 4, 2005 Author Share Posted September 4, 2005 Nice to see you back, Nico. I hope we will continue to see more of you. It is nice to be part of the family of God and each member is important and missed when they don't come around. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted September 5, 2005 Author Share Posted September 5, 2005 This gets into their Congressional representation. Make no mistake about it, New Orleans recieves a nice piece of the federal pie. I suspect they recieve more back from the federal government than they pay in. If the levees were a priority to the community their congressmen and women would have seen that they remained funded. That might have meant less money for some other areas like school projects, new police cars, public works or some good old pork barrel spending. So why didn't that happen? This is how it works. Mr. Congressman gets lots of donations and "favors" from building contractors so he has to see that federal dollars keep these contractors busy. He gets donations from the manufacturing sector so he has to see they keep their government contracts and subsidies. He doesn't get any donations from the levees or Corps of Engineers so those do not become a priority. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pockey Posted September 5, 2005 Share Posted September 5, 2005 Hey Nico!!! Glad to see you back. I missed you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Naomi Posted September 5, 2005 Administrators Share Posted September 5, 2005 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> CoAspen said: but city government ignored these calls and spent not a penny to upgrade the levees. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> From what I understand, it was not the earthen levees which gave way, but the concrete sea walls built inside the levees. Quote If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Lambert Posted September 5, 2005 Share Posted September 5, 2005 Naomi, actually CoAspen was quoting me. The fact remains, an ounce of prevention here might have saved the city. But it is all symptomatic of an endemic malady. Not every natural disaster should be seen as a judgment of God, except perhaps in the most general way (since we as a species have told God to back off, and He has obliged). But for a city as deeply mired in sin as New Orleans, sins which had official acceptance and approval from the city government, to suffer the unique fate of being the first major city in U.S. history that has had to be abandoned for months (some say years will be necessary), we have to be especially hard-headed if we refuse to acknowledge there are lessons to be learned in this of the limits that do exist to God's patience with sin. God is real, He does have a place in the reality of our common experience, and He will uphold justice and punish sin sooner or later. Those who try to deny this do no one any favors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted September 5, 2005 Share Posted September 5, 2005 God already dealt with sin on the cross. End of story. Those that keep wanting to resurrect an old testament deity of wrath and retribution are the ones who are hard-headed (say nothing of -hearted) and doing no one any favors. Not to mention, they are just plain *bleep* outta luck, too bad, tough turkeys, etc. since they aren't going to get their way no matter how loud they squawk or how many people they diss or kill. Reality just isn't built to their specs. Thank God. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restin Posted September 5, 2005 Share Posted September 5, 2005 I've wondered about this case of "collateral damage" myself. Many religious people have been thinking a long time that New Orleans "had it coming", for the crime, corruction, depravity, and all out defiance of morality of any kind. But you are so right about the rich and middle class having the means to get out, (tho they have nothing to go back to) while the poor and weak were trapped. Who is responsible for this, just spiritually speaking? I think that's a good question, tho a hot one, and deserves some discussion in depth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Lambert Posted September 5, 2005 Share Posted September 5, 2005 Calvary does not mean that God will never punish sinners. In fact, it proves that God WILL punish sinners. Forgiveness is offered to everyone, but on condition of acceptance. Those who brazenly continue in sin, making no effort at reformation, do not demonstrate acceptance. Rather, by trivializing the importance of sin, they trivialize the importance of Christ's death on the Cross. David was forgiven for his sins, but he still suffered many consequences of his sins in the dysfunction of his own family that resulted from his sin. Nicodema, there is only one God in Old Testament and New. The only Deity who dealt directly with humanity in the Old Testament was God the Son. It was the pre-incarnate Son who gave the Ten Commandments on Mount Sinai. It was Jesus Christ who appeared to Moses in the burning Bush. It was Jesus Christ who sent the fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorra, and the surrounding vicinity. See 1 Cor. 10:1-4, especially the last phrase of verse 4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Byers, N.D. Posted September 6, 2005 Share Posted September 6, 2005 Hi Ron, a lot of the destruction in the OT happened to God's people. They were disobedient; over and over they were punished for the leaving God and worshipping idols. They entered into a covenant with God and knew the terms or should I say the curses for leaving God. God gave them land and they were known for their God. In this land was to be a place of light but they failed. Of the places that were destryed by God in the OT none of them were without knowledge of God or they attacked God's people. In otherwords God did not destroy places without some kind of warning. Touch not my annointed or sending a Jonah. God's people had a special calling; to introduce the Messiah to the world. The Messiah would then reveal the Father to the world. The purpose of this revelation was to introduce all humanity to a loving God and invite them to a world that wasn't controlled by Satan. This earth is Satan's proving ground at this time in earth's history. He has come down having great wrath because he knows he has a short time. Jesus said we'd have all these disasters but that would not be the end. The end would come as the Gospel is preached in all the world as a witness. If we are children of God we should look to ourselves and ask am I preaching the Gospel? If you are telling people that this is an act of God when you really are not sure, are you preaching the Gospel? There is a time when God will deal with those who reject His gift of salvation. After the time of the Gentiles it's called the 7 last plagues. My Bible reads the goodness of God leads to repentance not the wrath of God. I don't know if this will change your mind but maybe someone else will be moved. have a great day Norman Quote The unconditional pardon of sin never has been, and never will be. PP 522 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restin Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 About God's unconditional love, I heard it explained this way recently: God's love for all of us is unconditional, but His forgiveness is conditional...conditional on our confession and determination to change, with His help. Explained that way, it became a lot clearer to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restin Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 CoAspen, I'm usually the one arguing your point. We cannot change, or even want to, without the Holy Spirit's constant help. And we are covered by Christ's cloak, all the while in this on-going process. But hopefully, not to fall into quibble as you say, His forgiveness is conditional just because we do have to accept jesus' sacrifice, and start trying to change for the better. I do love, and agree with, Apostle Paul and his down-to-earth messages about salvation. Christ forgave us in advance, that's true, but on the condition that we accept His New Covenant, and turn to follow him the best we can at the stage we're in. That's what I'm trying to say. like you, I don't want to get into one of Club Adventist's notorious ping-pong games of quibble and nickpicking each and every word of a post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Lambert Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 Romans 5:18 tells us that with the Atonement of Christ, justification came to "all men." Arguably, no human being will be lost and destroyed in the Lake of Fire at the end of the Millennium because of their sins; but rather they will suffer punishment for refusing the Atonement and righteousness of Christ. In so doing, they chose to cut themselves off from God, the Source of all life, and ultimately He must let them go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 Quote: Shane said: We know these are the works of Satan - no doubt. However we also know from the story of Job that God does lift His hand of protection and let Satan do such things. So is it possible that God lifted His hand and let New Orleans be destroyed? I will concede that it is possible. Let's look at God's character as seen in His Son: Luke 9:51 And it came about, when the days were approaching for His ascension, that He [Jesus] resolutely set His face to go to Jerusalem; 52 and He sent messengers on ahead of Him. And they went, and entered a village of the Samaritans, to make arrangements for Him. 53 And they did not receive Him, because He was journeying with His face toward Jerusalem. 54 And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?” 55 But He [Jesus] turned and rebuked them, and said, “You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; 56 for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.” And they went on to another village. Doesn't that spell out God's character? With that in mind read the following: "The time is at hand when there will be sorrow in the world that no human balm can heal. The Spirit of God is being withdrawn. Disasters by sea and by land follow one another in quick succession. How frequently we hear of earthquakes and tornadoes, of destruction by fire and flood, with great loss of life and property! Apparently these calamities are capricious outbreaks of disorganized, unregulated forces of nature, wholly beyond the control of man; but in them all, God's purpose may be read. They are among the agencies by which He seeks to arouse men and women to a sense of their danger." [EGW] Please note it doesn't say that God caused this disaster, it simply states that "the Spirit of God is being withdrawn." It is a process...it doesn't say that God's Spirit has withdrawn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 Well said.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted September 19, 2005 Moderators Share Posted September 19, 2005 Genesis 18:32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake. Can we use God's interaction with Abraham concerning S & G as model for how God deals with Cities and punishment? Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted September 22, 2005 Share Posted September 22, 2005 Really...only God knows how wicked a city has become.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted September 24, 2005 Share Posted September 24, 2005 Quote: Robert said: Really...only God knows how wicked a city has become.... Ok, that said, I have a question for you all. Read the following article... Who now says that God's judgement has not visited upon Houston? [:"blue"]By PAM EASTON, Associated Press Writer GALVESTON, Texas - Wind from Hurricane Rita whipped up dramatic fires in this city's historic Strand District and parts of Houston, sending out swirls of sparkling embers even as rain poured down in sheets. One building was nearly destroyed in Galveston; two others appeared heavily damaged. A burning electric pole was lying on one of the buildings. "It was like a war zone, shooting fire across the street," Fire Chief Michael Varela said early Saturday. No injuries were immediately reported in either city, which were virtual ghost towns because most residents had heeded calls to evacuate. Rita made landfall more than 100 miles away early Saturday along the Texas-Louisiana line. One of the buildings that caught fire in Galveston was built in 1905, five years after the hurricane that destroyed most of this island city and killed at least 6,000 people. The damaged buildings were a bail bonds company, a Victorian-era home, and Eagle Lodge, a former fraternal club that's now an art gallery. Varela said one person escaped the fire, but he didn't know the person's identity or condition. Officials at the University of Texas Medical Branch in Galveston did not respond to requests for information about the person who escaped. The Strand District includes historic buildings, night clubs and shops. It is the site of a massive Mardi Gras celebration and an annual Charles Dickens festival. Several fires also were burning in and around Houston, including an apartment complex. In Pasadena, south of Houston, a Dollar General store was nearly engulfed in flames, Mike Baird of the Pasadena Police Department told KTRK-TV in Houston. Despite the fires, officials were relieved that Rita spared the flood-prone cities a direct hit. Galveston initially had been at the center of forecasters' fears as Rita churned in the Gulf of Mexico. Authorities worried a high storm surge could overwhelm seawalls and submerge the island city. "It looks like the Houston and Galveston area has really lucked out," said Max Mayfield, director of the hurricane center. [/] As an addendum, I would like to go on record...This is an unfortunate event brought about by the person who likes to hurt/destroy the human race. And while God could have altered it to weaken the blow to the area [and I suspect that there is some evidence of this], I also believe that this phenomone was initiated by the human race thru other human actitivites, ie global warming and that we are seeing the exteme results of these activities. IOWs, hurricanes are the result of satan's judgement, not God's. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Naomi Posted September 24, 2005 Administrators Share Posted September 24, 2005 Neil D said: </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> As an addendum, I would like to go on record...This is an unfortunate event brought about by the person who likes to hurt/destroy the human race. And while God could have altered it to weaken the blow to the area [and I suspect that there is some evidence of this], I also believe that this phenomone was initiated by the human race thru other human actitivites, ie global warming and that we are seeing the exteme results of these activities. IOWs, hurricanes are the result of satan's judgement, not God's. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Neil, I am in complete agreement. We blatenly destroy the natural balance of our planet and then wonder what is causing things to blow up ........... As for judgements ... what about every person killed in a traffic accident, plane crash, etc.? Naomi Quote If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted September 24, 2005 Author Share Posted September 24, 2005 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> ie global warming and that we are seeing the exteme results of these activities. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> There are two equally fanatical extreames. The far right screams: God is punishing us! God is punishing us! The far left screams: It's gloabl warming! It's global warming! The middle says, "Maybe God is punishing us but... there is no evidence of that. Maybe it is due to global warming but... there is no evidence of that." On just one more issue, I show myself to be in the middle. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beryl Posted September 24, 2005 Share Posted September 24, 2005 Correct, Shane. But maybe it should be suggested that people read Great Controversy, the chapter entitled "The Impending conflict." Note just one quote: "Even now he [satan] is at work. In accidents and calamities by sea and by land, in great conflagrations, in fierce tornadoes and terrific hailstorms, in tempests, floods, cyclones, tidal waves and earthquakes, in every place and in a thousand forms, Satan is exercising his power...And then the great deceiver will persuade men that those who serve God are causing these evils...[read more...] Quote "Grace is God doing for us, in us and through us that which He requires of us but which is impossible for us to do in or for ourselves." But He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." 2 Cor. 12:9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derrell M Posted September 24, 2005 Share Posted September 24, 2005 Centuries ago "magicians" were using electricity, sleight of hand, and other things to amaze the population. What was science and trickery was attributed to God, the Devil, etc. What they couldn't understand had to be supernatural. Those were the "Dark Ages." Today we understand the scientific laws that govern much of nature. We know that the birth of a hurricane, its path, and what is destroyed by it requires no supernatural intervention or guidance... either from God, or the Devil. However, I suppose it is sometimes easier to accept calamity if we can somehow add the moral component of our choice to it. We can make sense of something mindless if we tell ourselves that it was driven by a supernatural mind. So maybe what we call ignorant superstition in the context of the Dark Ages is just human nature. We laugh at the jungle witch doctors who tell their patients that the fever is an evil spirit, that the drought was the vengeance of an angry god who must be appeased, that the flood was because of a spell cast by a neighboring tribe. How does that differ from us attributing Katrina to the judgement of the devil, or punishment from God? The same goes for other natural disasters and AIDS. Wether you serve a jungle spirit, or the god of Abraham makes no difference. You are doing the same thing, only attributing it to a different god. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted September 24, 2005 Share Posted September 24, 2005 Quote: There are two equally fanatical extreames. The far right screams: God is punishing us! God is punishing us! The far left screams: It's gloabl warming! It's global warming! The middle says, "Maybe God is punishing us but... there is no evidence of that. Maybe it is due to global warming but... there is no evidence of that." On just one more issue, I show myself to be in the middle. I have seen people be the proverbial 'frog in a pan of cold water over a slow fire'....The frog does nothing and eventually boils itself without ever realizing the danger. Shane, you say that the Left screams "global warming"....and that you imply that it's nothing, it's a normal cycle of weather. There are trends that point to the global warming...Even the bible says that part of the 7 last plagues indicates some sort of global warming... [ [:"green"] The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was given power to scorch people with fire. 9They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him][/] Currently, both polar ice caps are melting back to record levels, the oceans show at least a .5 degree increase over the last century of record keeping [and that is alot of energy to absorb] along with other migratory patterns upset over changes in tempral vegetation, and you say, "There is no evidence"???? Whoooooeeeeee, man...it takes a lot to convince you..... Is it stubborness that is not convincing the population or lack of knowledge or the resisting the need to change our behaviors? Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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