Katrina exposes New Orleans’ deep poverty

[bevin]

Three considerations

(a) There must have been RUMOURS of rapes, murders, etc being spread through the crowds - often baseless or mutating

( There would have been drug addicts without their drugs, schizophrenics, alcoholics, and other street people in the crowds

© and probably some nasty street gangs also

I would guess that there was some nasty stuff, but that it has been greatly exagerated - or at least that the media has not accurately portrayed the percentages

/Bevin

[bevin]

I would also point out the Aussie story has a inconsistencies consist with exageration

(a) A single male is NOT going to be able to fend off gangs - "Mr Hopes emerged as a hero for the Australians, fending off threats from gangs who wanted to rob them and drag the women away."

( "If girls from our group walked to the toilet they were felt up and filthy comments made to them." Yeah - if it was that bad, they wouldn't have been walking to the toilets by themselves to find out

© ""I didn't see people raped, but we were afraid we would be attacked." - exactly - these are statements of feelings of fear - and I would have been fearful also

/Bevin

[cricket]

The reason so many blacks were there is because over 65% of the city was black and a larger portion of the black population is poor than the white population. If it were to happen where I live one would see a lot of hispanics because 87% of the people here are hispanic. [:"green"] Exactly, Shane. And, if it were to happen in your city, there would be a lot of questions regarding race as well. I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying that it does happen; it is happening; there is a race issue--whether we like it or not. [/]

Did the Mayor of New Orleans mess up the evacuation and hurricane preperation because of race? No [:"green"] Of course he didn't. People who use logic in their understanding of the world around them will see that race had nothing to do with it. Even so, there are still hordes of people who think race has to do with it. Either they are thinking: he's a fool and doesn't know how to run an evacuation because he's black; or, they think that he didn't run the evacuation well because the people who were most affected were black. Either way, to these people, there is a race issue. And, because there are people who respond in such a manner, those of us who understand otherwise are faced with the racial reactions of those people. Therefore, there is a race issue. [/]

Did the Governor fail to activate enough National Guard troops to aid in the evacuation and shelters because of race? No

Did Bush declare the area a disaster two days before the hurricane hit becuase of race? No

Did FEMA fail to get supplies to the refugees quickly due to race? No [:"green"] The same thoughts concerning the Mayor that run through the minds of these people are seen in their thoughts about the Governor, President Bush and FEMA. Race issues always are found in our society. Wrong as these issues may be, they are inescapable. [/]

[Amelia]

How would I act in a situation like this? I honestly dont know. It would be a great temptation if I were very hungry and thirsty BUT 1-2 days after the storm is not a starvation/dehydration situation for most average adults. So why were these things taking place shortly after the fact?

* Breaking into a jewelery store? Looting- no food or water present.

* Breaking into an electronics store? Looting- no food or water present. Several people were seen using shopping carts to haul away large screen TVs and other electronics. Very useful when you have no home and no electricity.

* Breaking into Wal-Marts? Hard Call - food and water present. But then why were all other manner of goods taken? Survivors were quoted saying they were only taking things they needed to survive.

* Breaking into a shoe store? - Looting - no food or water present. Those who were shown walking out with several bags of shoes were quoted on live air as stating that they needed shoes to keep their feet from being cut on broken glass. Those people had shoes on their feet at the time.

* Breaking into a mattress store? Looting - no food or water present. An older man and his son were seen carting 2 mattresses away from the store. A reporter stopped and asked them if they thought that was looting. They replied no. The family had taken shelter in a garage and after sleeping on concrete for 3 days they couldnt take it anymore and went for the mattresses.

* going through houses other than your own? Looting.

If there were canned foods and bottled liquids floating in the water after being blown/washed out of stores...I say fair game. Other perisable items would most likely not be edible due to contamination.

[lazarus]

Hi I'm new to club adventist. I've been reading posts for a while and I guess I felt moved to sign up and join in particularly on this issue.

I'm interested to see that most of those posing have very quickly concluded that race has not been a factor. My guess is that if this were a majority black forum the conclusion would be perhaps almost the opposite.

Individual and collective experiences weigh heavily on the conclusions we draw.

Some points to consider

1. The use of the word refugee as a description

2. The depiction of white survivors and black survivors.

3. The fact that bodies of dead Americans have been shown on TV is that usual? Can you remember when bodies of Americans we so casually shown on TV. Reflect on 9/11...and other disasters hurricaines etc.

I don't mean to accuse anyone of anything just trying to suggest another perspctive.

[Paula]

Hey Bevin,

I agree 100% with your previous posts (following mine).

Now to Niel...

hehehehe... When I first started typing a response I had actually written... considering I am a woman... I don't think you have to worry about me raping anyone... but then I thought it'd be a bit indelicate so I decided to delete it... hehehe... As for your question... I DO see a difference. If you are in a situation where there is no food or water coming INTO the city, where the food and water already IN the city is not being SOLD because the vendors are gone... AND it will all be THROWN AWAY because of the storm, I honestly don't see a problem. Add to that the fact that all of this will be covered by the insurance companies BECAUSE OF THE STORM (remember, no one would be allowed to sell this food after its been flooded and dirtied by debris and what have you), and so the owners aren't losing any money... I honestly don't see a problem. Under THOSE circumstances. Now I would not go to a store and rob food just because I am hungry and jobless. Thats a totally different situation. I honestly think the police should have "looted" all the food and water in the city themselves and then properly distributed them among the survivors. That way they could aggresively pursue those looting non-essentials.

As for saying that no one dies of dehydration in 2 days... yes you do. If you live in the SOUTH... if you are in south florida (where I live), or in the gulf (where the temps are similar)... and you have no water for 2 days in 90 degree heat, with a humidity of 80%, without Air conditioner, without running water to cool you off, and with no water to drink, and you are elderly or a baby... you WILL DIE!!

Lazarus,

When I said that race was not an issue, I meant in regards to the criminal activities. I can bet that if all the people there were white, and they had no food or water for days they would be looting for food just the same. And there would be delinquents among the whites who would loot jewelry and electronics just the same as there were delinquents among the blacks doing this. I too agree that the media portrayed the criminals disporportionately to the overall population who were just trying to get by.

As for race playing a part in how the aid was handled. I don't think it was race. Just the incompetence of the current administration. And that runs from the president all the way down to congressmen... they didn't come back from vacation till THURSDAY to pass the aid package!!?!?!??! THATS rediculous. As is the fact that the president didn't go to the affected areas until THURSDAY. He didn't acknowledge a problem until THURSDAY. And he can't even say he was away on somehting important like North Korea, or Iraq... he was on VACATION, and could very well have been there on Tuesday. Had the president and congressional leaders been to the affected area on Tuesday and SEEN first hand, and spoken directly to those affected, I doubt they would have allowed them to die, and hunger and thirst, AFTER the storm had passed. But it's very easy to say... "help is on the way.. .just be patient.. it's coming", when you are in the comfort of your air-conditioned home, with your refrigerator full of all lifes necessities. With your feet dry and clothes on your back. THATS what happened in New Orleans. It was not a RACE issue, it was a CLASS issue. Many of our leaders have no idea what it is to suffer for days without the basics... and it is in times like these that it shows.

[Dr. Shane]

The other thing to remember the time line.

The hurricane moved in Monday morning and blew all day.

One of the levies broke on Tuesday morning and another later in the day. The waters didn't equalize until Wednesday.

Additional troops and supplies arrived on Thursday.

[Naomi]

Hello Lazarus,

Welcome, we are glad you have decided to join us at C/A.

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lazarus said:

I'm interested to see that most of those posing have very quickly concluded that race has not been a factor. My guess is that if this were a majority black forum the conclusion would be perhaps almost the opposite.

Individual and collective experiences weigh heavily on the conclusions we draw.

Some points to consider

1. The use of the word refugee as a description

2. The depiction of white survivors and black survivors.

3. The fact that bodies of dead Americans have been shown on TV is that usual? Can you remember when bodies of Americans we so casually shown on TV. Reflect on 9/11...and other disasters hurricanes etc.

I don't mean to accuse anyone of anything just trying to suggest another perspective.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I do appreciate your perspective and yes, the word refugee was used for several days. To address your concerns:

1)I honestly don't believe it was met as a racial statement. What is the first word that comes to mind when over a hundred-thousand people must flee an area? After complaints were voiced concerning the descriptive word, mainstream reporters began using other descriptive words. Now they are referred to as evacuees or other descriptive words to describe those who were trapped in the City.

2) I have been addicted to news shows this week and have searched my mind. Only on a couple of occasions have I heard people referred as white or black survivors. And, the reporter making the distinction was black.

It was later in the week when most news reporters addressed the issue of color. The reason was because viewers were questioning why they were only seeing black people.

When the question of color was raised by enough people, it became necessary to address it. The reason was not racially motivated. It was because those who remained in the city, and who comprised the majority of the population were indeed people of color. Simply reality.

{Did you have the opportunity to spend time in the area prior to Katrina? If you did, I am certain you understand the culture of the area(s) which suffered the most damage}

3) Perhaps I missed something, but the bodies I saw on several news services were appeared to be pictures of the very same bodies, covered, or from a distance. On one you could see a part of an arm (I believe) and it was not black. And, yes immediately after 9/11 they were showing "bodies" being carried away. Then and now, they were not showing "close-ups"; not showing a body that could be identified by viewers.

Moreover, Lazarus, as for this being a majority "any race" forum, I have been around here for quite sometime and other than a few who have sent pictures, I really have no idea who is what color.

Please do not be discouraged or angered by my response to your first post. Normally I would not respond to a new poster in anyway that may be discouraging or in disagreement. However, this is such a serious situation and so many, people of all ethnic groups are/and have been working so very hard and giving so much to help those who need the help that playing the race card just seems wrong. We have so many serious issues in our country, and in this old world , that the idea of taking an opportunity to make it worse by using race is difficult to understand.

Life is not always fair, mother-nature is not always fair, people do and say things when exhausted and stressed that perhaps they would do or say differently under less extreme circumstances. We were never promised anything different.

For me, for two reasons, this has been a personal reality check. One, if Katrina had hit a couple days later, I would have been there. I could have been one of the people trapped.

If a disaster strikes in my hometown what would happen. I have no money, am a poor senior citizen, with only the income I can earn by working much more than 40 hours a week. In the area I reside, I am a minority. I have no family within 300 miles. Would I have the forethought, money or ability to leave my home if disaster strikes? We all make choices which directly determine our future.

It is what it is.

Naomi

[Dr. Shane]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

What is the first word that comes to mind when over a hundred-thousand people must flee an area?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

And when they leave seeking refuge (or shelter) they are refugees.

Forgien media loves to show dead bodies on the news. We see it all the time on the Spanish channels we get. I have seen a couple in the coverage of Katrina and my thought was that it is just another step of our media becoming like forgien media.

[Naomi]

One thing that haunts me, and a questions that I asked the people who "escaped" on Wed am and stayed in my home for a couple of nights, Why would I care what name was used to describe me as long as help came? My house guest could have cared less, they were thankful to be this far from the nightmare.

Secondly, with little to no communication with the outside world, how did the survivors even know what term was used to describe their situation?

[Paula]

I don't believe it was those trapped in NO that complained about being called Refugees... as far as I know it was a complaint of those watching the news outside of the city.

Paula

[Dr. Shane]

I think a lack of communication also impacted more staying in the city. Immediately after the hurricane a lot of the people left in the city could have still gotten out. However after the levies broke the water flooded areas that had been dry and increased the amount of water in the flooded areas. Many of the people left in the city didn't even know the levies had broken or were in danger of doing so.

I heard this morning that the city of New Orleans did have a hurricane plan but they did not follow it. The big question is "why not?" Who dropped the ball there?

[Naomi]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Shane said:

I think a lack of communication also impacted more staying in the city. Immediately after the hurricane a lot of the people left in the city could have still gotten out. However after the levies broke the water flooded areas that had been dry and increased the amount of water in the flooded areas. Many of the people left in the city didn't even know the levies had broken or were in danger of doing so.

I heard this morning that the city of New Orleans did have a hurricane plan but they did not follow it. The big question is "why not?" Who dropped the ball there?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Shane,

I don't know who dropped the ball, but it is apparent that it was dropped.

OTOH, Should this have happened on, say Tuesday, I was scheduled to be in NO Monday night. I had reservations in a relatively new hotel on high ground. I understand that many people staying in that area were told that they would be safe.

The traffic out of the area and to the airport is awful in good times. I am certain that I would have considered traffic issues, as well as the possibility of being stuck in the airport and not being able to leave. I think I would have left, but am not 100% sure. Had I stayed, we would have survived the initial hurricane. After the levies broke the playingfield changed, instantly!

Everyone knows that the bridges are very old and in serious need of extensive repairs. This is true in many areas in our country. No one ever mentioned the levies and, at least, I assumedthey were well maintained. In retrospect, the only time I remember hearing accounts of work being done on the levies was in the early 80ties in preparation for the World's Fair. But, I don't live there and would not have known unless I heard a random comment.

Hindsight is 20-20. God's love is perfect.

Naomi

[Amelia]

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Hindsight is 20-20. God's love is perfect.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Forwards and backwards.

[Anthony!]

bevin:

Quote:

---

Three considerations

(a) There must have been RUMOURS of rapes, murders, etc being spread through the crowds - often baseless or mutating

(

There would have been drug addicts without their drugs, schizophrenics, alcoholics, and other street people in the crowds

© and probably some nasty street gangs also

I would guess that there was some nasty stuff, but that it has been greatly exagerated - or at least that the media has not accurately portrayed the percentages

---

bevin:

Quote:

---

I would also point out the Aussie story has a inconsistencies consist with exageration

(a) A single male is NOT going to be able to fend off gangs - "Mr Hopes emerged as a hero for the Australians, fending off threats from gangs who wanted to rob them and drag the women away."

---

He could if he was fierce enough - I can guarantee you that if this man got mad dog mean, any gang members would avoid getting hurt and look for easier prey. This is true in the animal kingdom, too. Also, we don't know for sure if when this happened the other Aussie males weren't backing him up.

Quote:

---

(

"If girls from our group walked to the toilet they were felt up and filthy comments made to them." Yeah - if it was that bad, they wouldn't have been walking to the toilets by themselves to find out

---

Well, maybe they went to the restroom not knowing how bad it would be initially, and then partially formed their defenses as a result of that experience.

Quote:

---

© ""I didn't see people raped, but we were afraid we would be attacked." - exactly - these are statements of feelings of fear - and I would have been fearful also

---

So he didn't see any rapes... hhhmmm... well, if they were occurring in the dark, I can understand why. Duh! Australian quote: "Nobody really slept at night. The boys stayed awake watching as we were afraid the generator would go out and it would be total darkness again. That is when the rapes happened." (Italics supplied)

However, they did see, as quoted "They were molesting children that we saw".

So, excuse me? Bevin, I think you are terribly ignorant in this matter. You weren't there. You didn't see it. Would you use the same above arguments to discount the witness of a holocaust survivor? A Vietnam war veteran? A survivor of the Los Angeles riots?

Also, I am sorry, but I am going to 'play' the race card here because race will always be an issue when human nature is at its worst. Anyone who would suggest otherwise is living in dreamland. I was raised by my father to be a racist. I have practiced racism. And, I have been the victim of racism.

There will always be some disenfranchised in any group, race or culture/subculture who will feel persecuted and threatened by those who they perceive as possessing wealth, education and power superior to their own. Thus, that frustration is manifested and shows its ugly head.

We only have to look as recently as the Los Angeles riots which resulted from the Rodney King trial. Does anyone remember Reginald O. Denny, the white truck driver who was assaulted by African-American Damian Monroe Williams? Does anyone remember that the perception of racial injustice was a factor in the motivation for these assaults? Does anyone remember African-American celebrity Arsenio Hall on television back then, pleading with African-Americans to NOT retaliate against white people?

Is it possible that there may have been impoverished and disenfranchised African-Americans who felt that because of their socio-economic-racial status, they were warehoused at the Superdome to be 'disposed of'?

Indeed, let not racial differences be a factor to us as individuals in how we regard others. But unfortunately, as a society, we have a long way to go to become a nation of equality...

The Lord delays His coming and is long-suffering so that all may have opportunity for salvation...

P.S. Please see ABCNews.com for this positive African-American role model for disaster survival:

Amy Henry photo inset

[Dr. Shane]

Thank you for the link to that inspiring story.

[lazarus]

I have never heard those who have had to flee a disaster in developed countries referred to as refugees. I'm a news addict and I would have noticed it. Also when watching the news coverage Refugee is usually used

against backdrop the backdrop of black victims of Katrina.

Of course, refugee is the word to use for displaced people but it is usually only applied to non-whites. None of those who survived last year's hurricaines were ever referred to as refugees...I wonder why.

I remember watching an in depth interview with a group of white folks who were in a upstairs apartment. The admitted to looting to get food etc. They were portrayed sympathetically and under siege with a hostile world outside their apartment.

Whites leaving stores with food are not called looters.

I have not seen any in depth interviews with black survivors. Just brief, encounters with talk of squalor, murder, rapes, gangs, beatings....animal like behavior. Concerning the bodies. I really don't have a problem with the media showing bodies. If you came from Mars you would think no-one died in the Iraq war. There was no blood, guts or gore. If we could see the price paid maybe we would decide that it cost too much!

When do you ever see the bodies of victims so casually portrayed on the TV screens. Its usually of Africans and Asians in developing countries. Nearly, 3,000 people died on 9/11 and there were a few distant shots of rescuers carrying bodies. With respct to the Katrina coverage. I've seen a man dead on the side of the road his face uncovered. A corpse being dragged. The old lady in the wheel chair.

Its not all about race. Its about class, poverty too! I don't think any news organisation set out to be racist. What is happening is that stereo-types are being re-enforced and the rules that apply to non-whites across the world in terms of reporting the news are being used with regard to African Americans.

On another note, perhaps more importantly we are now more keenly aware of how vulnerable we are despite all our technology and sophistication. I feel like it time for me to move to Montana and begin growing my own food!

[aldona]

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lazarus said:

I feel like it time for me to move to Montana and begin growing my own food!

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I have a dream...to move to the mountains to the east of Melbourne (somewhere in that rugged green area on the map between Warburton and the NSW border), and set the property up so it can be used as a shelter if something like Katrina ever strikes here.

...lots of fresh food, water, cabins...kind of like Camp Howqua, for those who are familiar with the Adventist infrastructure around here.

aldona

[Amelia]

Make room aldona, Im comin down. I also had a dream like that. Only now, as a single, it really doesnt matter any more. God can make use of me in the city.

[Parade Orange]

Hello u wonderful people!

I want to share something I do believe about the Last Days that are coming soon that coincide with this tragedy.

When this earth is so globally affected(infrastructure failing,finacial chaos,religious liberty stripped ect.)that causes a great paradigm shift and world crisis government forms. God's people will trust Him even if there is no food and water at our disposal.

The world will be plunged into utter ruin(astroids,Great earthquakes,flooding,volcanoes,fires)and as God's children we cant loot for survival. We will share what we have(if any)with strangers who maybe repugnant to our former carnal hearts. Dont you realize what causes the Sunday Laws to be universally passed? Universal Catastrophys and tragedies will alert the 'powers that be' that God needs to be appeased! Thats what forces the hand to do what it ussually wouldnt do in a WORLD WIDE SETTING! And it will be our opportunity to reach out with the Gospel and hands-on unselfish love to a fearful and unsure world. The Faith in God that requires Sabbathkeeping when the world hates you is the same faith that trusts in God when tragedy happens and you will not break the other commandments.

I know u all must realize this.

God bless you all.

Gay4Jesus

Take a short look at sin and a long long Look at JESUS-

Jack Blanco

[Naomi]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

When do you ever see the bodies of victims so casually portrayed on the TV screens.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

This may seem cold, but perhaps we should see the shapes of our dead. Perhaps now we fully understand the reality and depts of loss of life.

Anyone who watches a TV show will know that our airwaves are filled with all kinds of weekly shows, showing upclose pictures of nice clean, quiet murders ... maybe this will become a reality check. Death is not nice, quiet and clean.

Moreover, on news shows after an auto accident, fire or other emergency situation, at least here, we see the bodies, from a distance, see the covered dead being loaded on the emergency vehicles.

In my city we have and have had for several years the highest in the Nation incidence of violent crimes. Police and City government officials often being charged with illegal actions. School systems closed or unable to operate properly because the money has been stolen by the administors.

This has a ripple effect to peoples of all races. What can the average citizen do? Perhaps we do need to see the ugly, sad results of such action within our cities.

[Anthony!]

Bump to keep this discussion at the top - it is very relevant to all others right now.

[aldona]

New Orleans' forgotten limp out of the ruins

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Donald Littlejohn, who spent eight days trapped by floodwater in east New Orleans, arrived at the convention centre with his guide-dog Bingo and his wife Tawn.

He has terminal cancer and was too weak to walk. There were no wheelchairs, so someone found an office chair with wheels to move him to a shaded area to wait for the next helicopter.

When Katrina hit, he said he asked his landlord for help.

"I asked him for the keys to the second floor; he said no. I asked him for the keys to his boat; he said no. I asked him to take us with him; he had a big car. He said no. I asked him for an axe; he said no," Mr Littlejohn said.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

What a caring landlord. I hope he can sleep at night as he ponders the fate of his tenants from some rich relative's place on higher ground.

aldona

[Naomi]

Aldona,

There are so many sad stories surfacing from the ruin.

Anyone who has ever been to the Superdome or Convention Center can tell you that there is so much room inside that you can park tractor-trailers and still have bunches of room. There is more than adequate room for helicopters to land on the parking lots. Yet, the mayor had one trailer filled with water in the Dome only. Not to even mention the short notice given to evacuate. Why?

Everyone, from the landlord(s) on up are to blame for this mess. I think we'll see rapid reconstruction and compensation to try to make it all go away.

Naomi