EARTHQUAKE Swarm on San Andreas

[Ron Lambert]

God's punishments are administered as redemptive discipline, designed to rebuke the defiant, humble those emboldened in sin, and bring repentance to those near and far who may still be reached with the lessons of justice.

Punishment may extend to the surrounding area, but so does the influence of sin, and the responsibility even of those who did not participate in sin who nonetheless looked away and failed to oppose it actively. Attempting to be "neutral" in the face of sin is counted by God as sin as well. As Ellen G. White said:

"If God abhors one sin above another, of which His people are guilty, it is doing nothing in case of an emergency. Indifference and neutrality in a religious crisis is regarded of God as a grievous crime and equal to the very worst type of hostility against God." (Testimonies for the Church, Vol. 3, p. 280)

[cricket]

Excellent! Thank you for posting these.

Some instances illustrate the idea that God will mete out His punishment in eternal damnation. This clearly shows that punishment is not always for discipline, but as a consequence for bad behavior--a consequence that sometimes leads to eternal death.

[Gregory Matthews]

God's punishments are often (not always) simple the natural consequences of one's actions.

We live in a world that has gone wrong, in many ways, due to our human actions. To the extent that is true, the results are simply our consecuences. If we build a major city below sea-level, next to an ocean body of water, with levies not designed for the stress they will be placed under, they will sooner or later fail. That is the result of our action, and it is not God's punishment.

[Paul Beach]

Dear persons,

Having posted about God's punishment, it is important to also note another major quality of God - His great love, wisdom, and faithfulness. If we only focus on punishment, we get a distorted picture of the One who died for us. He loves everybody, even those who reject Him.

Nehemiah 9:17

They refused to listen and failed to remember the miracles you performed among them. They became stiff-necked and in their rebellion appointed a leader in order to return to their slavery. But you are a forgiving God, gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and abounding in love. Therefore you did not desert them,

Psalm 86:15

But you, O Lord, are a compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness.

(Note: That phrase "slow to anger, abounding in love" appears many times in the Bible. Mrs. Gray thought it was there only once, but it shows up at least 9 times.)

The story of Jonah illustrates God's compassion for cities that are in need of repentance.

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But Jonah was greatly displeased and became angry. 2 He prayed to the LORD, "O LORD, is this not what I said when I was still at home? That is why I was so quick to flee to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity. 3 Now, O LORD, take away my life, for it is better for me to die than to live."

4 But the LORD replied, "Have you any right to be angry?"

5 Jonah went out and sat down at a place east of the city. There he made himself a shelter, sat in its shade and waited to see what would happen to the city. 6 Then the LORD God provided a vine and made it grow up over Jonah to give shade for his head to ease his discomfort, and Jonah was very happy about the vine. 7 But at dawn the next day God provided a worm, which chewed the vine so that it withered. 8 When the sun rose, God provided a scorching east wind, and the sun blazed on Jonah's head so that he grew faint. He wanted to die, and said, "It would be better for me to die than to live."

9 But God said to Jonah, "Do you have a right to be angry about the vine?"

"I do," he said. "I am angry enough to die."

10 But the LORD said, "You have been concerned about this vine, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight. 11 But Nineveh has more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, and many cattle as well. Should I not be concerned about that great city?"

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Jonah, Chapter 4.

God is concerned about every great city, and ever person in the most remote parts of the earth. We are all part of His plan, and He wants to save us.

Sincerely,

Mrs. Gray

[Neil D]

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God is concerned about every great city, and ever person in the most remote parts of the earth. We are all part of His plan, and He wants to save us.

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This I concur....

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God's punishments are administered as redemptive discipline, designed to rebuke the defiant, humble those emboldened in sin, and bring repentance to those near and far who may still be reached with the lessons of justice.

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Is not God served better when thru the Holy Spirit, He can speak to each and every individual about thier po-tic-ular needs? When bad things happen, can not the Holy Spirit use the situation to cause some heavey reflection? I think so. And it is then when God speaks to each and every individual.

Disasaters, such as Katrina, only shows public policy failures. In this case, the leaders of the country were very slow to act. The leaders misjudged and forgot the poor in the citys and byways of that section of the country. It was those caught in the economics of the poor that were caught and had NO resources except to rely on the goverment...and the goverement failed them.

The other thing that bothers me is this word "punishment", specifically, "God's punishment" or "God's Wrath". These conotate anger, an action to deal with bad behavior. It gives a character reference to God that, at least in my mind, just is not there.

When God comes the next time, is it a threat to the human race or is it a time to collect His own? The primary purpose can not be both, as we know that if God were here, His presence destroys sin. It is only when His own have no other resources other than God Himself to rescue them.

When God destroys Sin in finallity, is it to destroy sin and judge the wicked or is it to remake the universe into the clean place that God desires once again?

I think that the judgement scenerio is language that the primative used to convey the gravity of the situation to the unrepentant. Only those 'in the know', ie His followers, know that God will eventually remake the universe into something better...

Just some words of thought..

[Gerr]

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Christine Wall said:

That's what I was thinking, too. God didn't really punish the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, He removed the life from them.

Out of curiosity, is there anywhere in the Bible that God does, indeed, punish people for their sins?

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[:"blue"]"And I heard another voice from heaven saying, 'Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works..." Rev 18:4,5 NKJ.

"The time of trouble - trouble such as was not since there was a nation [Dan 12:1]- is right upon us, and we are like the sleeping virgins."

"The world is becomeing more and more lawless. Soon great trouble will arise among the nations - trouble that will not cease until Jesus comes."

"We are on the very verge of the time of trouble, and perplexities that are scarecely dreamed of are before us."

"We are standing on the threshold of the crisis of the ages. In quick succession the judgments of God will follow one another - fire, and flood, and earthquake, with war and bloodshed." LDE 12

"Get out of the cities as soon as possible...."

"Out of the cities, is my message at this time...

The Lord calls for His people to locate away from the cities, for in such an hour as ye think not, fire and brimstone will be rained from heaven upon these cities. Proportionate to their sins will be their visitation. When one city is destroyed, let not our people regard this matter as a light affair, and thin that they may, if favorable opportunity offers, build themselves home in that same destroyed city..." LDE 95 [/]

Gerry

[Paul Beach]

Dear friends,

In order to understand the issues of sin, grace, and punishment better, one should really study the message of the Sanctuary. Psalm 73 is poetic in its description of sin, grace, reward, and punishment and shows that these questions have been on peoples' minds for millenia, but that there is an answer in God's love.

Take a minute or two and read it slowly and think about it.

1 A psalm of Asaph.

Surely God is good to Israel,

to those who are pure in heart.

2 But as for me, my feet had almost slipped;

I had nearly lost my foothold.

3 For I envied the arrogant

when I saw the prosperity of the wicked.

4 They have no struggles;

their bodies are healthy and strong.

5 They are free from the burdens common to man;

they are not plagued by human ills.

6 Therefore pride is their necklace;

they clothe themselves with violence.

7 From their callous hearts comes iniquity ;

the evil conceits of their minds know no limits.

8 They scoff, and speak with malice;

in their arrogance they threaten oppression.

9 Their mouths lay claim to heaven,

and their tongues take possession of the earth.

10 Therefore their people turn to them

and drink up waters in abundance.

11 They say, "How can God know?

Does the Most High have knowledge?"

12 This is what the wicked are like—

always carefree, they increase in wealth.

13 Surely in vain have I kept my heart pure;

in vain have I washed my hands in innocence.

14 All day long I have been plagued;

I have been punished every morning.

15 If I had said, "I will speak thus,"

I would have betrayed your children.

16 When I tried to understand all this,

it was oppressive to me

17 till I entered the sanctuary of God;

then I understood their final destiny.

18 Surely you place them on slippery ground;

you cast them down to ruin.

19 How suddenly are they destroyed,

completely swept away by terrors!

20 As a dream when one awakes,

so when you arise, O Lord,

you will despise them as fantasies.

21 When my heart was grieved

and my spirit embittered,

22 I was senseless and ignorant;

I was a brute beast before you.

23 Yet I am always with you;

you hold me by my right hand.

24 You guide me with your counsel,

and afterward you will take me into glory.

25 Whom have I in heaven but you?

And earth has nothing I desire besides you.

26 My flesh and my heart may fail,

but God is the strength of my heart

and my portion forever.

27 Those who are far from you will perish;

you destroy all who are unfaithful to you.

28 But as for me, it is good to be near God.

I have made the Sovereign LORD my refuge;

I will tell of all your deeds.

[Ron Lambert]

God sent Jonah to warn Ninevah, and the city repented. Who warned New Orleans? Were Christians, SDAs in particular, intimidated and hesitant to speak out about the dangers of defying God so directly and persistently as was the case in New Orleans? Have we not been inclined to go along with the tolerance toward sin that is fashionable in our hedonistic society? Have we not been too ready to jump on the bandwagon of those who readily condemn anyone who would speak out against sin, and suggest there is a God who judges? How many of us are more inclined to denounce consaervative Christian groups and their spokesmen, than to reprove those who organize events like "Southern Decadence," and those public officials who turn a blind eye to the gross behavior that has always taken place during Mardi Gras?

[aldona]

If a major disaster happened to strike St Louis a week before the General Conference, what sort of discussion would we be having here?

aldona

[Dr. Shane]

With all due respect, Sister aldona, It didn't. No natural disaster struck St. Louis during the General Conference Session. Hypotheticals that far away from reality don't seem productive to me. Perhaps I am off base there.

[Clio]

You are.

More pointedly, what if the disaster had happened DURING the GC session?

St. Louis is not immune from disasters.

Personally, I'm more inclined to think HAARP played a role in this rather than the Hand of Abba.

We are not yet into the time when we must endure the wrath of a living God. And until that time, all GOOD things come from HIM. He's specific about that. And therefore, in this time when the veil of Mercy from the shed blood of the Lamb still covers the earth, disasters, catastrophes, and mayhem still come from the Adversary.

Not Abba.

Clio

[Dr. Shane]

St. Louis is not immune to disasters but God has promised to protect His people.

Now if the GC Session was held in Los Angeles and there was a major earthquake and thousands of Adventists were killed, I am sure the many, if not most, in the church would view that as a judgement against the lukewarm Laodicean church. However if few were killed we would be talking about God's deliverance and protection.

A major earthquake hit El Salvador a few years back and killed hundreds if not thousands. It hit on Sabbath morning while the Adventists were in church. No one in church was injured but many lost their homes and had they not went to church would have lost their lives. That was a topic of discussion there for quite sometime.

[Ron Lambert]

We have joked for a long time here in the Michigan conference that whenever we have a campmeeting, sometime during the weeklong event there will be a torrential downpour. Farmers who have been enduring droughts have gladly welcomed the Adventist campmeetings.

A few years ago during the Michigan campmeeting, in addition to the mandatory downpour there was a tornado, spotted headed straight for the camp grounds at Cedar Lake. But an odd thing happened. A couple of miles before reaching the camp grounds, the tornado split in two, according to police obersevers, and passed harmlessly on either side of the campgrounds.

What is the point of saying "What if" such and such a disaster occurred during an Adventist convocation? Is this meant to convey the idea that all natural disasters occur purely by chance, and that God never has anything to do with it? This sounds like atheism. Who else habitually resists the idea that anything is miraculous, that anything is a judgment from God? What motivates people to disparage faith and spiritual discernment with such emotional antagonism?

[aldona]

Ron, we are not trying to say that God never has a hand in natural disasters. That is obviously not the case. But I just looked at how every time a natural disaster strikes, some Christians immediately start pointing the finger at other people's sins and declaring with certainty what they believe to be the reasons for God's judgement. I just wanted to turn the scenario around and consider it from the opposite perspective for a moment.

If a bolt of lightning came out of nowhere and destroyed my house, and left all my neighbors' houses untouched, at about the time I was planning to do something I knew was wrong, it would be pretty clear. There would be only one conclusion I would come to.

But most of the people destroyed by Hurricane Katrina were not homosexuals. There were old people and little children, sick and disabled people, God-fearing Christians as well as criminals and unbelievers. Those who insist that God sends his judgement in this way do nothing but produce disgust and outrage in those who do not know Him, making Him no better than the Nazis who rounded up young and old, Jew and Gentile, to avenge the death of each soldier during the war in Poland.

How much atheism has been generated by this kind of approach? I would venture to say, much more than can come from any gay festival.

aldona