SDA Church in Germany in rebellion against SDA doctrine?

[BobRyan]

Just saw a sermon that stated that the SDA church in Germany is in rank apostasy.

Apparently the church in Germany by in large rejects the writings of Ellen White - as antiquated and wrong - and declaring the 3 Angel's messages to be wrong.

See the 1 hour 17 minute point.

[olger]

I have heard similar accounts - but not personally verified it.

[Gerr]

My understanding is that the SDAC in Germany is still split, and that the one that capitulated to Hitler is still the dominant one.

[Neil D]

And what of their faith? is it strong? Is it growing? Is it stagnant? How do we know any of these answers when we 1] don't know German, 2] don't know the German people, 3] don't know the culture of the German people nor the culture of the SDA church in German....

I will say this much- I don't know....but I have a God, who is father to all of my brothers there in German...and He will perfect their faith until the day of Jesus Christ....And that's the promise...regardless of what I think...

[aldona]

My understanding is that the SDAC in Germany is still split, and that the one that capitulated to Hitler is still the dominant one.

That's my understanding too.

(I'm not German but my family is Polish - that's close enough. :-))

edited to add:

Is that Walter Veith?

If so, I would approach whatever is on the video with a large grain of salt.

AJ

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

If so, I would approach whatever is on the video with a large grain of salt.

This man being a professor of some 30 years and more conversant re: the scriptures than any other person I've ever listened to, not to mention his in depth knowledge of many other topics as well, I'm wondering what brings you to that conclusion.

God cares!

[Bravus]

Consider the source.

[BobRyan]

And what of their faith? is it strong? Is it growing? Is it stagnant? How do we know any of these answers when we 1] don't know German, 2] don't know the German people, 3] don't know the culture of the German people nor the culture of the SDA church in German....

I will say this much- I don't know....but I have a God, who is father to all of my brothers there in German...and He will perfect their faith until the day of Jesus Christ....And that's the promise...regardless of what I think...

At the 1 hour 17 minute point a report is given by a German (in this case Veith) about meeting another German SDA who gave a testimony about how he became a Seventh-day ADventist - from atheist to SDA and the fact that he was lead to believe that SDAs do not accept the writings of Ellen White - by his fellow German SDAs. Eventually according to that account - the man began reading those books for himself and decided he needed to help out the SDA church in Germany. Only later did he start to find people here and there that had not yet tossed out all of the SDA knowledge and acceptance of the Gift of Prophecy.

It is a pretty interesting account from an atheist turned SDA in Germany.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Consider the source.

(Consider the source.)

That would be Germans - speaking about what is happening in Germany???

So we should listen to ...??? non-Germans? New Zealanders maybe?

or?? wait until we are incarnated as a German child to see it first hand?

[BobRyan]

Quote:

If so, I would approach whatever is on the video with a large grain of salt.

This man being a professor of some 30 years and more conversant re: the scriptures than any other person I've ever listened to, not to mention his in depth knowledge of many other topics as well, I'm wondering what brings you to that conclusion.

God cares!

Indeed so - "considering the source" that this man knows the Bible, is a biology professor, is a converted atheist, is a German, has done far more research than any two of his critics...

It is pretty obvious that his statements are to be taken seriously.

In that video there is a point where he tells a story of a guest pastor standing at the pulpit in Veith's home church and insisting that SDAs should be helpless when it comes to the philistine-giant of blind faith evolutionism. The pastor then went on to insist that nobody knows anything about science if they do not agree with the pastor's own views on it.

That is pretty much the level of incredulity that one finds among those who bash Dr. Veith. The less informed they are, and the less they are in favor of SDA doctrine - the more they seem to oppose his views exposing the flaws in evolutionism and his stand in defense of SDA doctrine.

Not that all who oppose him are in that boat - but many are -- too many to be sheer coincidence.

in Christ,

Bob

[Hair]

EGW is nice and thank God for the work he has accomplished through her, but are they Christians and do they accept the Bible(canon) and it's teachings? That's what really matters.

Well... her writings in harmony with the Bible as far as I understand them, that's why we accept her, so I guess there's a misunderstanding of some sort when they say all of her writings are "wrong".

[Don777]

A Review of Walter Veith's video presentation posted here:

I am listening to the Walter Veith recording presently, about half way through. Some observations:

Dr. Veith compares the Kadesh-Barnea story found in Numbers 13 and 14 to God's people today. He even lists some of the "giants in the land", i.e. communism, Marxism, evolution, etc. (the giants which arose at the time of 1844.)

Veith tells stories of how the church has reacted to him:

* He has been asked if he checked his message with Church leaders.

* He describes a department in an apparently Adventist university; the Health Department. They agree with him; and the Medical Department, who wish he would not stir things up.

Theologically, Dr. Veith presents no obvious errors. His is a message of reform. He calls for reform.

He accurately presents the Bible passages of his study. His interpretations are reasonable and relevant to Adventists.

More later...

[Gordon1]

Another SDA world evangelist spoke (privately & publicly) of rebellion among SDA academics in Germany, and how this had led to rejection of SDA principles by the ministry and consequently the laity as well.

[Textus Receptus]

If memory serves me corrctly, Germany has strong anti-semitism laws no doubt as a consequence of their going-ons during WWII. As such, espousing a gospel which suggests that Jews are no longer 'a chosen' people, but that we are all spiritual Jews is viewed as being anti-semitic. Unfortunately, the country's laws have tempered the SDA message to reflect the current political climate.

[Gail]

Quote:

That is pretty much the level of incredulity that one finds among those who bash Dr. Veith. The less informed they are, and the less they are in favor of SDA doctrine - the more they seem to oppose his views exposing the flaws in evolutionism and his stand in defense of SDA doctrine.

Not true. That's a generalisation.

[Bravus]

Veith is not a German, he is a South African.

[Bravus]

And my problems with Veith are (a) his conspiracy theory views which do not accord with reality and ( the untruths he tells in opposing evolution. Opposing evolution is totally fine with me, it's untruths I object to.

[Bravus]

Quote:

If memory serves me corrctly, Germany has strong anti-semitism laws no doubt as a consequence of their going-ons during WWII. As such, espousing a gospel which suggests that Jews are no longer 'a chosen' people, but that we are all spiritual Jews is viewed as being anti-semitic. Unfortunately, the country's laws have tempered the SDA message to reflect the current political climate.

Veith's comments went far beyond this characterisation, to, for example, minimise the Holocaust and partly blame Jews for it.

[Gail]

It was his conspiracy theories that had me shaking my head as unreal. I think he just goes a bit far sometimes.

[Bravus]

If you use the Chrome browser or Google Translate, you can translate this German account of Veith's claims: http://www.eann.de/veiths-gefahrliches-s...en-check/14420/

[Stan]

Walter Vieth, in the opinion of many, has rejected EGW counsel on how to treat Catholics etc.

[Gerr]

When one confronts error, toes are bound to be stepped on and feathers ruffled. How tactfully could Elijah have confronted the sin of Ahab? Ditto John confronting Herod regarding his adulterous relationship with Herodias? Jesus vis-a-vis the Scribes & Pharisees?

[Bravus]

Sometimes telling the truth will step on toes.

This does not, in itself, logically imply that, simply because someone is stepping on toes, they are telling the truth.

[BobRyan]

Sometimes telling the truth will step on toes.

Certainly we can all agree on that point. At least on this thread - no doubt.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

And my problems with Veith are (a) his conspiracy theory views which do not accord with reality

I have yet to find anyone that has done the depth of research in the area of those historic elements - and so far I have not found you to be a source of such information either.

So while I cannot verify all of his research - I cannot find anyone who has been able to refute it with actual facts.

Which means that when he points out real life events with fellow SDAs - in areas such as Germany - I am much more likely to accept his account of the event - than an account of it held forth by someone who was not even present.

The practice of smearing someone 'in general' no matter what the topic - is not one that I tend to engage in.

I am sure we can both agree on that point.

in Christ,

Bob