SDA Church in Germany in rebellion against SDA doctrine?

[BobRyan]

A Review of Walter Veith's video presentation posted here:

I am listening to the Walter Veith recording presently, about half way through. Some observations:

Dr. Veith compares the Kadesh-Barnea story found in Numbers 13 and 14 to God's people today. He even lists some of the "giants in the land", i.e. communism, Marxism, evolution, etc. (the giants which arose at the time of 1844.)

Veith tells stories of how the church has reacted to him:

* He has been asked if he checked his message with Church leaders.

* He describes a department in an apparently Adventist university; the Health Department. They agree with him; and the Medical Department, who wish he would not stir things up.

Theologically, Dr. Veith presents no obvious errors. His is a message of reform. He calls for reform.

He accurately presents the Bible passages of his study. His interpretations are reasonable and relevant to Adventists.

More later...

Agreed. A "just the facts" review is always much appreciated.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

EGW is nice and thank God for the work he has accomplished through her, but are they Christians and do they accept the Bible(canon) and it's teachings? That's what really matters.

Well... her writings in harmony with the Bible as far as I understand them, that's why we accept her, so I guess there's a misunderstanding of some sort when they say all of her writings are "wrong".

Indeed it is puzzling as to what they think they are doing?

[Bravus]

So - do you plan to correct yourself about where Veith is from...?

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

My understanding is that the SDAC in Germany is still split, and that the one that capitulated to Hitler is still the dominant one.

That's my understanding too.

(I'm not German but my family is Polish - that's close enough. :-))

edited to add:

Is that Walter Veith?

Yes that is the man that has brought person after person into our local area churches purely based on seeing his material - studying the Bible topics and the way he exposes the flaws in blind faith evolutionism - as a former atheist biology professor at the university level and now a Christian biology professor.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

So - do you plan to correct yourself about where Veith is from...?

I said he was German - are you saying that He is not German?

Am I still Norwegian - or did that change too??

[BobRyan]

Veith is not a German, he is a South African.

Some people claim that I am not Norwegian but that I must be some sort of native American since I was "born here". I usually correct them when they do that.

Around here we call it "ethnicity" and in some cases - it matters having implications about close family history, languages etc.

Just "details" I guess.

in Christ,

Bob

[Bravus]

Not worth fighting about, but you suggested that he knows German culture as a German. Pretty sure your Norwegian blood doesn't give you any unique insights into Norwegian culture. Veith grew up in South Africa, the other end of the world from Germany.

Did you read the (translated) article about Veith's comments in Germany? About the Holocaust being a Jesuit plot to get the Jews in Israel, and that those in Israel are not 'real' Jews?

[BobRyan]

Not worth fighting about, but you suggested that he knows German culture as a German.

At this point I simply guessing that his German is better than yours - but I could be wrong. (He gave his lecture in German so I suppose that says something - again I could be wrong about what it means to everyone else.)

And I am also guessing that the German he was riding with in that 3 hour car ride - was also a lot more German than you or I.

My guess could be wrong -- but so far I don't see any reason to doubt it.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Did you read the (translated) article about Veith's comments in Germany? About the Holocaust being a Jesuit plot to get the Jews in Israel, and that those in Israel are not 'real' Jews?

[Johann]

Just saw a sermon that stated that the SDA church in Germany is in rank apostasy.

Apparently the church in Germany by in large rejects the writings of Ellen White - as antiquated and wrong - and declaring the 3 Angel's messages to be wrong.

See the 1 hour 17 minute point.

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[Tom Wetmore]

Well stated, Johann. Your direct personal experience says far more, and is far more credibly than a drive-by shooting style of a stranger to that country, especially someone like Veith who has a dodgy reputation already.

[Gordon1]

...especially someone like Veith who has a dodgy reputation already.

Jesus had a dodgy reputation and suffered many ad hominem comments.

Why? Because He had the truth, and the organized church found this intolerable.

[Textus Receptus]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

Did you read the (translated) article about Veith's comments in Germany? About the Holocaust being a Jesuit plot to get the Jews in Israel, and that those in Israel are not 'real' Jews?

In Romans 2 and 9 Paul makes the argument that those in Israel are not "real Jews" but that the children of the promise are the "real Jews".

You knew that right?

It is possible (I suppose ) that not a few of our German SDA brethren and our Spectrum brethren are simply unfamiliar with scripture when it comes to this topic. But I doubt that could be said about all of us.

In addition there is only a small percent of the current population of Jews in Israel that believe in God and the actual Bible the way the Jews of Christ day would have done it.

We all knew that right?

It does not mean that they do not deserve to have a nation or to live in peace or to be evangelized. We love them and want to evangelize them like everyone else.

Here is Dr Veiths actual statement to the Germans on this point.

Quote:

The purpose of the lecture was to show that literal Israel (both physically and theologically) can in no way represent the ‘Spiritual Israel’ of the Bible and that any theological gymnastics to the contrary cannot negate this fact. Indeed this is the Advent position and stands contrary to most modern theological views held by other evangelicals. My purpose was not to attack the Jews but to defend the Advent position. Of necessity the Advent position will create controversy as it stands in juxtaposition to all other views. It is my sincere wish that that all people, including the Jews, will accept the Advent position which glorifies Christ and firmly establishes Him as Saviour and Ruler of the ‘Israel of God’.

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...t/showflat.html

I prefer to go to the source rather than settle for hearsay.

in Christ,

Bob

It is true that we as SDA want to evangelize to the entire world and we do love all peoples, but I think Veith was trying to examine the larger picture. At times, it may sound hurtful to suggest that the Jews of Israel are not truly descended from the bible Israel, in fact, there are many credible sources which point to this. For instance, the majority of the Jews, including those who live in the nation of Israel are not Jews by blood but are Ashkenazi Jews which have no lineage to the biblical Jews. They are Jews by conversion and not by blood. This is a fact and not speculation.

With regards to Veith's conspiracy, that the nation of Israel was created for reasons other than what is reflected in history, primarily for occult reasons, strangely can also be reasonably defended. Yes, I know that this is inflammatory and seems crazy, yet if put our biases aside and examine the evidence with an open mind, there is some interesting facts which cannot be rationalized away. For instance, modern Israel was bank-rolled by the Rothschild family. Anyone familiar with the Rothschild’s know that they have strong ties to the secret societies and the underworld, including the Vatican. If anyone has ever seen the Israeli Judicial Supreme Court, which mind you, the Rothschild’s funded, you will clearly see that the building is encrusted with Masonic and occult symbolism. They have even gone as far as placing a pyramid with the all Seeing Eye at the top of the roof.

http://www.abidemiracles.com/555701.htm

It can also be easily suggested that contemporary Judaism does not reflect that of the Old Testament. Modern Judaism is more kabalistic in nature and does not reflect in any since that the religion of Moses. Here is an interesting quote from Albert Pike, the founder of the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry with regards to the Kabbalah.

"All truly dogmatic religions have issued from the Kabalah and return to it: everything scientific and grand in the religious dreams of all the Illuminati… is borrowed from the Kabalah; all the Masonic associations owe to it their Secrets and their Symbols". (Morals and Dogma, pg 744, Albert Pike)

Furthermore, one only has to study the works of Jewish theological scholars to find illuminations of the kabbalic influences. Frankly, there are Jewish resources with Kabbalic libraries. Ever heard of B'nai B'rith? It's a quasi-Masonic Jews organization that heavily reflects Freemasonry.

http://www.whale.to/b/jews_and_freemasonry.html

All in all, where there is smoke there is fire as the old adage goes.

[Johann]

So we must understand the smoke signals from the Kabalah? And support any preacher who reveals their secret?

[CoAspen]

What I find interesting is that there are those who will always feel more comfortable with 'independent ministries', becasue they will be able to tell the "real truth" as opposed to the .org, whose theology is deemed to be 'watered down'. That mindset is more open to conspiracy theories.

[Textus Receptus]

So we must understand the smoke signals from the Kabalah? And support any preacher who reveals their secret?

Not at all, you can believe whatever you wish. Frankly, Lucifer will do what is already written and the means in which he conducts his buisness is nothing more than a peripheral reality, for me atleast. I just like examining the proverbial fig leaf so to speak.

As for conspiracies, they should never be presented as fact. A good conspiracy will never be proven; especially those designed by the Dragon. Yet, Lucifer has to work with in the parameters of our world, and with such a momentous task of wanting to rule the world, this will unfortnately, for him, leave lots of physical evidence.

[Johann]

Originally Posted By: Johann

So we must understand the smoke signals from the Kabalah? And support any preacher who reveals their secret?

Not at all, you can believe whatever you wish. Frankly, Lucifer will do what is already written and the means in which he conducts his buisness is frankly a peripheral reality, for me atleast. I just like examining the proverbial fig leaf so to speak.

As for conspiracies, they should never be presented as fact. A good conspiracy will never be proved, especially ones designed by the Dragon. Yet, Lucifer has to work with in the parameters of our world, and with such a momentous task of wanting to rule the world, this will unfortnately, for him, leave lots of physical evidence.

Let your light shine, Textus!

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

...especially someone like Veith who has a dodgy reputation already.

Jesus had a dodgy reputation and suffered many ad hominem comments.

Why? Because He had the truth, and the organized church found this intolerable.

I would not compare Veith with Jesus. When we make comparisons of that sort to Jesus, I get a chill up my spine - to say a man suffers as Jesus for the same reason is presumptuous at best and at worst...

That Veith may suffer from a questionable reputation and why simply does not compare. Not even in the same league...

[Gordon1]

True, Veith and Christ may not share the same character.

But their detractors exhibit a common trait:

Disparage the man because he's a church member speaking without approval/credentials.

Protestants have faced the same for centuries.

Ellen White foresaw this in a vision of the Roman Catholic procession surrounding her house, chanting threats. (Testimonies Volume 1) Turned out to be fellow churchgoers she knew who were

intent on destroying the Whites because "they had spoken against our holy order."

The same intolerance will be voiced against those who favour Sabbathkeeping: dodgy reputation, shadowy character, heretic, etc.

Bringing uproar and disaster to the land.

[Textus Receptus]

JohannThank you for the kuddos, but I highly doubt it's light. It is just researching what is out there and making highly informed speculations at best.

Frankly, I've learned not to put a whole lot of worth into what I read or take it as gospel. It is hard to tell the cops from the robbers these days. Lucifer is a more intelligent than any of us!

[Bravus]

I do not disparage Veith because he is 'a church member speaking without approval/credentials'.

I don't disparage him at all. I state that he is incorrect in matters of fact.

[Tom Wetmore]

Exactly!

[Woody]

Exactly!

[Gerr]

What incorrect facts? I want to check them out.

[Johann]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

Exactly!

Not only because you say so... I had to read some of his defense literature to verify it. He may be strong and convincing in certain areas, but unfortunately he reaches out into areas where he has little knowledge, and there he draws unwarranted confusing conclusions.

Here is a sample:

<http://pdf.amazingdiscoveries.org/BRI/Reflections-BRI-response-Feb_2008.pdf>