SDA Church in Germany in rebellion against SDA doctrine?

[Naomi]

JohannThank you for the kuddos, but I highly doubt it's light. It is just researching what is out there and making highly informed speculations at best.

Frankly, I've learned not to put a whole lot of worth into what I read or take it as gospel. It is hard to tell the cops from the robbers these days. Lucifer is a more intelligent than any of us!

[BobRyan]

...especially someone like Veith who has a dodgy reputation already.

[BobRyan]

Not only because you say so... I had to read some of his defense literature to verify it. He may be strong and convincing in certain areas, but unfortunately he reaches out into areas where he has little knowledge, and there he draws unwarranted confusing conclusions.

Here is a sample:

<http://pdf.amazingdiscoveries.org/BRI/Reflections-BRI-response-Feb_2008.pdf>

[BobRyan]

Again a dangerous generalization. My first encounter with German Seventh-day Adventists was in 1952 and I attended my first Sabbath School and church service in Germany in 1955, and I have been there frequently ever since.

Is it possible to find a "weak" Seventh-day Adventist in the United States? Is that then a generalization of our church in USA?

[Tom Wetmore]

... By contrast Jesus actually said that His followers would be treated just as he was treated.

I guess we are free to believe whichever source we choose - after all God has given all of us free will.

in Christ,

Bob

On that latter point I would agree. But some people do make very poor choices in that regard and get lead down paths in the wrong direction.

On the first point, being treated as Jesus was treated is not proof that one is his follower. Persecution is obviously not definitely proof of the validity of anything. Otherwise every bad thing that happens to a bad person as a consequence of their own actions would validate that they are doing the right thing, rather like a self fulfilling prophecy or the logic of a bootstrap argument.

My point on the risk of comparing oneself (or another) to Christ brings me to what tradition claims as Peter's insistence that he was not even worthy to be crucified as Jesus was, and insisted that he be hung on the cross upside down.

[Tom Wetmore]

Not only because you say so... I had to read some of his defense literature to verify it. He may be strong and convincing in certain areas, but unfortunately he reaches out into areas where he has little knowledge, and there he draws unwarranted confusing conclusions.

Here is a sample:

<http://pdf.amazingdiscoveries.org/BRI/Reflections-BRI-response-Feb_2008.pdf>

Yes that is very true and the point of concern that many have expressed about him. The problem is that the average person is not likely to be able to tell the difference. And there seems to be an overwhelming tendency toward sensationalism which often gets embroiled in conspiracy theory approaches. When all that get mixed and matched with efforts to preach the gospel it results in confusion.

The author of confusion is well served by that approach.

[Gail]

Well said, Tom. It was one of his videos on conspiracies that had me wondering...

This is my personal question, but I again wonder out loud what is the resulting mental state of anyone who gets heavily into the conspiracy theory thing. I say, Of course we can expect Satan to make conspiracies! That seems to be entirely within his character. But for us to spend so much of our time dwelling on Satan's weapons takes away from our hope and fills us instead with distrust of our brethren, our church leaders, leadership in general, and maybe even our trust that God has everything in control.

With his stand on Bible versions I am wondering also if it leads to suspicion on the Bible itself.

Like, why dwell on the bad stuff of life? Why focus your eyes there? It is one thing to be aware, it is another to preach it continually. And even if he doesn't preach it continually, those that watch Total Onslaught or whatever spread the negative.

That's the part that worries me. We know that bad times are coming. Now is the time to reinforce our sights on Jesus, not be dragged down with the turmoil on earth by keeping our eyes earthward.

[Johann]

Originally Posted By: Johann

Again a dangerous generalization. My first encounter with German Seventh-day Adventists was in 1952 and I attended my first Sabbath School and church service in Germany in 1955, and I have been there frequently ever since.

Is it possible to find a "weak" Seventh-day Adventist in the United States? Is that then a generalization of our church in USA?

I agree that one member falling away - or even one church or one conference leadership group falling away from our doctrines does not mean the entire division or the entire union is going off the rails.

That is why I posted this - hoping to get some response from people in Germany or closely associated with them who could attest to a more encouraging view of what is going on there.

Quote:

I have heard pastors making fun of people who consult EGW for everything in life, but just as many, if not many more, who fully accept the Spirit of Prophecy as an integral part of our faith, and they preach accordingly.

"Just as many if not more" in Germany? who accept and teach that Ellen White is a true prophet??

I am just trying to get a reference for the positive side of what is going on in Germany.

in Christ,

Bob

What I stated there is from my own experience through visits and contacts in Germany, listening to pastors preach,, etc., for most of half a century.

May your attitude towards your Brethren in Christ not prevent you from having a wonderful Sabbath experience when the sun sets tonight.

[BobRyan]

I have heard pastors making fun of people who consult EGW for everything in life, but just as many, if not many more, who fully accept the Spirit of Prophecy as an integral part of our faith, and they preach accordingly.

[BobRyan]

... By contrast Jesus actually said that His followers would be treated just as he was treated.

I guess we are free to believe whichever source we choose - after all God has given all of us free will.

in Christ,

Bob

[Tom Wetmore]

Quote:

On the first point, being treated as Jesus was treated is not proof that one is his follower.

Neither is popular acceptance by the world. But be that as it may - Jesus still chose to warn us that we would be treated as He was treated by the worldly minded people who oppose the message of Christ.

in Christ,

Bob

But as has been most clearly pointed out and documented is opposition or disagreement (not really persecution) and serious questions about reliability of things from Veith that really are not "the message of Christ." And challenging him and disagreeing with him on these things are not persecution as he (and perhaps you) seem to want to embellish them to be. If anything he should be getting the message that he is being "persecuted" for straying from the narrow path of thrush

There is a consequence to the clearly questionable positions or ideas he promotes in those areas where it seems he really doesn't have adequate expertise, knowledge or experience, his propensity to over-sensationalize things, and his wandering int he quagmire of conspiracy theories. No matter how faithful he might be to the Adventist message on other things, those strange (wrong really) ideas just erode his credibility and cause one to doubt if he really knows what he is talking about in other areas.

[BobRyan]

Quote:

On the first point, being treated as Jesus was treated is not proof that one is his follower.

Neither is popular acceptance by the world. But be that as it may - Jesus still chose to warn us that we would be treated as He was treated by the worldly minded people who oppose the message of Christ.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Notice that in this case from Johann's own link - the two key questions - not answered are these.

Quote:

I mentioned in my previous a previous communication to you a letter which I sent to the relevant parties at that time (including the BRI, in 2004) to which I received no

answer.

I append those documents again for clarification. There were no steps taken to correct the stand of these brethren and your silence then, together with your public

rebuke of my position now, could be construed as support for their overall position.

I thus need official clarification on the position of the BRI regarding some of these matters and would appreciate a frank answer, simply stating yes or no.

1. Does the BRI officially stand by the doctrine that the papacy is the antichrist and

that the pope in Rome is the e

mbodiment of the “man of sin”?

2. Does the BRI officially accept the writings of Ellen White as the revealed will of

God for the remnant and can these writings thus be considered as authorative in issues

of health, science and Bible doctrine?

And the reason for these questions appears to be that these are the very points where the German SDA leadership was stuck.

The much unexpected answer from the BRI of "we don't need to give an answer" - will be taken by Libs to affirm their views and by conservatives to affirm their view. A wise political move - but not helpful under the circumstances.

in Christ,

Bob

[Tom Wetmore]

missing the point...

[BobRyan]

missing the point...

Indeed - was about to point that out myself - but I didn't want to give offense.

The thread is about the conditions of the SDA church in Germany as viewed by the actual account given by the German that gave his testimony to Walter Veith - and by anyone else here who has first hand information on Germany.

It is not about finding ways to vilify Dr. Veith for his statements on Bible translations. The man who was quoted did not indicate that the subject of Bible translations was even an issue with him. And it is hardly credible to insert "conspiracy theory" into every topic Walter Veith addresses.

in Christ,

Bob

[Johann]

What makes this very complicated is that we do have a "denomination" called the Reformed Seventh-day Adventist. Through the years I have had several meetings with these people in Europe and also with former members in USA and Europe.

A former leader of the Reformed Church in Europe told me that their church actually had no other doctrine than finding fault with the official SDA church. This was manifested in two different areas:

1) That young SDA accepted military service and

2) That the official church does not believe in the Spirit of Prophecy.

Several former members of the Reformed Church have told me they left their former allegiance and joined the official church when they discovered that point #2 was false. When they discovered that the SDA church both in Germany and in America used and believed even more in the writings of Ellen White than the Reformed people ever did.

This means that a person could have met a member of the Reformed Church whose main doctrine is that the official church does not believe in the Spirit of Prophecy, something which is false.

So, do you also want to carry on the falsehood proclaimed by the Reformed SDA people?

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

missing the point...

Indeed - was about to point that out myself - but I didn't want to give offense.

The thread is about the conditions of the SDA church in Germany as viewed by the actual account given by the German that gave his testimony to Walter Veith - and by anyone else here who has first hand information on Germany.

It is not about finding ways to vilify Dr. Veith for his statements on Bible translations. The man who was quoted did not indicate that the subject of Bible translations was even an issue with him. And it is hardly credible to insert "conspiracy theory" into every topic Walter Veith addresses.

in Christ,

Bob

Missing the point... X ∞

[Gail]

What makes this very complicated is that we do have a "denomination" called the Reformed Seventh-day Adventist. Through the years I have had several meetings with these people in Europe and also with former members in USA and Europe.

A former leader of the Reformed Church in Europe told me that their church actually had no other doctrine than finding fault with the official SDA church. This was manifested in two different areas:

1) That young SDA accepted military service and

2) That the official church does not believe in the Spirit of Prophecy.

Several former members of the Reformed Church have told me they left their former allegiance and joined the official church when they discovered that point #2 was false. When they discovered that the SDA church both in Germany and in America used and believed even more in the writings of Ellen White than the Reformed people ever did.

This means that a person could have met a member of the Reformed Church whose main doctrine is that the official church does not believe in the Spirit of Prophecy, something which is false.

So, do you also want to carry on the falsehood proclaimed by the Reformed SDA people?

I was chatting with a young pastor coworker of mine and he simply said that when someone is telling him an account like what we are dealing with here all in this thread, he tries most of all to discern the spirit of the person telling the story.

IOW, if the person is tearing down rather than building up it can be counted as suspect.

I have a problem with spreading evil news, whether it is true or rumour. It just seems like we are training people to focus on evil rather than the good. Once you get the negative mindset, first you need ten positives to overcome the negative in your brain (or so they say). Repeating the bad reinforces it not only to others but also to yourself.

I don't know why, but I STILL have a gut feeling that pointing out faults and sins cannot be good for a person's spirituality or mental health, in the end.

[Johann]

So true

[Gregory Matthews]

I woke up this AM in Orlando and I am now in Denver. I do not feel like posting very much, especially since I have posted more detail before. So, I will be short:

1) The problems with the SDA Church in Germany date back to 1914 and even before with Conradi.

2) The problems boiled over during WW II and centered on Hitler.

3) It is clear that the leadership of a couple of Conferences took an inappropriate (spoken with great reservation) position in regard to supporting Hitler.

4) SDA historians are just beginning to get a good idea of the specifics and context of that support.

5) However, there was sin on the "other side" and there was an other side at that point in time. IOW, nobody was free of guilt in this matter.

6) As a result, of all that happened over about a 50+ year period, the official SDA Church in Germany remains in fellowship with the Official SDA church but respectfully has some points of disagreement with positions taken by North America. Those points of disagreement are not considered to be important enough for the SDA Church in Germany to be considered outside the world-wide fellowship.

NOTE: The SDA Reform Movement, in Germany as well as the U.S. and elsewhere, considers the official SDA Church to be in a state of apostacy.

I have been trying to think of the name of the SDA historian who has done the most recent work on the German Adventist Church during the time of Hitler. I believe it was Dr. Ronald Lawson, probably now retired from a teaching position from one of the New York (City, I think) Colleges. While you probably will not find that work of his on the Internet, you will find him in urban studies.

NOTE: I am going to bed. I have been up for 21 hours.

[Gregory Matthews]

http://www.sdanet.org/steve/articles/R.Lawson:Onward_Christian_Soldiers

The above is a major article by

Dr. Lawson related to the SDA Church and military service. It is substantially correct.

While it makes a very brief mention of the situation in Germany in which the denomination supported Hitler, it does not give any real detail. If I can find that on the Internet, I will post it.

[Bravus]

What we have in this thread so far is BobRyan's account of Walter Veith's account of the account of one random German.

Do you think you could find one person in the USA who would tell you that the SDA church in the uSA is in rebellion against SDA doctrine?

I bet you could find several thousand.

[Bravus]

It wouldn't be true, though.

[Johann]

If one wants to delve into mistakes within our church there is plenty of material.

Conradi is said to be one of those who ridiculed the message of righteousness by faith at the GC in 1888, and yet he later became president of the European Division. Finally he broke with the Seventh-day Adventist church and joined the Seventh-day Baptists. I recall Dr. Walther, church history professor at Andrews, telling us he'd seen a letter written by Conradi during WW I in which he told our young ministers to accept the draft issued by Kaiser Wilhelm, and fight for their country, Germany, with the guns provided.

A daughter of the secretary of youth in Hannover, Germany, told me her father had helped hiding a young man who had received a call to the army where he was forced to carry arms. As a punishment this youth leader lost his credentials and was expelled from our church, so the family joined the reform movement. Later she and her husband had to flee to Denmark to avoid persecution by the Nazis.

[Johann]

What we have in this thread so far is BobRyan's account of Walter Veith's account of the account of one random German.

Do you think you could find one person in the USA who would tell you that the SDA church in the uSA is in rebellion against SDA doctrine?

I bet you could find several thousand.

I have met quite a few in USA - and elsewhere in the world.