"When the church becomes perfect"

[Restin]

Just gotta push this saw one more time: "When the church perfectly reflects the character of Christ, then He will come..."

Still galls me like a hiking shoe rubbing my ankle raw.

I've brought this up before and you all have helped me understand this EGW comment. But every time I hear it said in church, it just makes me feel like giving up...the church seems to be getting farther from perfect..so,Jesus is never coming...how can anyone be just like Jesus anyway...and I've been an SDA 60 yrs and still don't know anyone who's perfect, including me.

So, now it irritates me because it sounds like a cheap shot pastors do to motivate the audience, who seem not to pay a bit of attention to it, or maybe are wiser than I and don't get upset like I do.

[joeb]

Restin,

What do you think it means to be perfect?

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

I've been an SDA 60 yrs and still don't know anyone who's perfect, including me.

Considering this text;

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us."1 John 1:9-10 NASB

I would equate the condition that existed when the avenging angel of death came through the city described in the old testament, the same to be existing at the time when Jesus returns. In the AMP bible the Word "continuously" is used to indicate our (those who believe in Jesus) condition as clean before God, a result of the blood of Jesus washing us free of sin, just as the believers applied the blood over the frame of the door of their houses in symbolic evidence. Those who are washed clean, receive the garment of Jesus' spotless righteousness, essentially making them fit to enter into the heavenly home, all this being promised as a gift to those who do not trust in their own righteousness, which is as filthy rags.

"For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.

For God did not send the Son into the world in order to judge (to reject, to condemn, to pass sentence on) the world, but that the world might find salvation and be made safe and sound through Him.

He who believes in Him [who clings to, trusts in, relies on Him] is not judged [he who trusts in Him never comes up for judgment; for him there is no rejection, no condemnation—he incurs no damnation]; but he who does not believe (cleave to, rely on, trust in Him) is judged already [he has already been convicted and has already received his sentence] because he has not believed in and trusted in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [He is condemned for refusing to let his trust rest in Christ’s name.]"John 3:16-18 AMP Parenthesis brackets theirs's LHC

It does say elsewhere in the Word that we will all stand before the judgment bar of God. However, those who casts themselves on the mercy of God, accepting Jesus as Savior and Lord, admitting no righteousness of their own, have Jesus as their Advocate and the judgment for them will be positive since the blood of Jesus is sufficient to meet all the law's requirements. Subsequently they will enter in to the home Jesus went ahead to prepare for you.

"And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me."

2 Corinthians 12:9 NASB

Keep looking up, brother

God cares!

[Restin]

It does help to be reminded of the cloak of Christ's righteousness. Thanks for your comments that help me through this!

I had just come back from prayer meeting where this about being perfect like Jesus was touted once again. The way they say it, it sounds to me like Christ's last day people will totally never do one thing bad or wrong anymore...never hang up on the telemarketer, never say one impatient word to the wife/husband, never break the Sabbath in any way for even one minute, and also give up the house and car and live on the streets of the bad side of town to convert as many as possible, 24/7. I'm sitting in the prayer meeting thinking this about what it means to be perfect just like Jesus was.

[8thdaypriest]

An evangelist friend of mine was having late lunch with me at the Soup er Salad in Albuquerque. I asked him WHY was I still sinning? WHY did I get impatient? Why did my faith falter at times? Why was I not always thankful? I claimed the promise of Ezekiel 36 - "I will put my Spirit in them and will cause them to keep my Laws." He just smiled and replied "Read the context Rach." Sooooo - I went home and looked again at the promise. I will gather them from every place where they were scattered. I will bring them into their own land. THEN .......

Oh .... we are only in the process now. It won't be complete UNTIL we are returned to the land. And THAT won't happen until the 8th day (8th millennium). I think there was a prophecy about that too. Every newborn Israelite was circumcised on "the 8th day." Removing the "heart of flesh" and giving us a "new heart" and then writing His law on that new heart. THAT is circumcision of the heart. And it happens on the 8th day."

Incidentally - The Lord told Ezekiel that only those circumcised "in heart and in flesh" could "enter My sanctuary." That would be Ezekiel's Temple, of Messiah's reign (8th millennium of course). So just how are we "circumcised in flesh??? Well -

I noticed that Joshua (Yeshua) led Israel across the Jordan (which rolled back as a scroll) on Nissan 10. Then Joshua (Yeshua) "circumcised the people." (During the 40 years wandering, they did not circumcise the babies born in the wilderness.) And then they "kept the Passover." ........ Yeshua (Jesus) will lead US across the sky, which will roll back as a scroll. Then HE will "circumcised the people." The old flesh will be gone and we will have new "spiritual bodies." Then HE will keep the Passover - new with us - in His Father's kingdom.

You realize that no uncircumcised person could partake of the Passover.

Someone let me know what you think of this.... Rachel

[Kevin H]

Just gotta push this saw one more time: "When the church perfectly reflects the character of Christ, then He will come..."

Still galls me like a hiking shoe rubbing my ankle raw.

I've brought this up before and you all have helped me understand this EGW comment. But every time I hear it said in church, it just makes me feel like giving up...the church seems to be getting farther from perfect..so,Jesus is never coming...how can anyone be just like Jesus anyway...and I've been an SDA 60 yrs and still don't know anyone who's perfect, including me.

So, now it irritates me because it sounds like a cheap shot pastors do to motivate the audience, who seem not to pay a bit of attention to it, or maybe are wiser than I and don't get upset like I do.

I think that the trouble with this text is that it's become part of the Adventist sub-consciousness that to be perfect means to follow the teachings of Elder's Washburn and Wilkinson to a "T", rather than Ellen White's view.

We are constantly making choices, choosing what we choose to think, what we choose to visualize and what we choose to do (actions or behaviors). These choices go towards either loving the world as Jesus has loved it, or they go towards a disposition in us to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world.

Washburn and Wilkinson believed in a last generation perfection that was of a different quality than ever before. Mrs. White disagreed with them. She saw last generation perfection as that each generation has had people who were fully committed to Jesus, those who were following Jesus but without the full commitment, those who are not following Jesus but are open to conversion and those who have completely rejected Jesus and live for them selves.

While she does not come out and say it, she seems to maybe indicate that John Wesley was a model for perfectly reflecting Christ.

Anyway she differs from Washburn and Wilkinson in not seeing the last generation as having a different quality than ever before and working towards that experience. But instead that as we faces the different crisis of the last days, the increased demonic activity and the increased pouring out of the Holy Spirit that we will focus more on Jesus with our thoughts and visualizations and the resulting actions that we will become men and women like John Wesley and others. Or else we will be come so self centered and selfish that we perfect the character of Satan.

[joeb]

It does help to be reminded of the cloak of Christ's righteousness. Thanks for your comments that help me through this!

I had just come back from prayer meeting where this about being perfect like Jesus was touted once again. The way they say it, it sounds to me like Christ's last day people will totally never do one thing bad or wrong anymore...never hang up on the telemarketer, never say one impatient word to the wife/husband, never break the Sabbath in any way for even one minute, and also give up the house and car and live on the streets of the bad side of town to convert as many as possible, 24/7. I'm sitting in the prayer meeting thinking this about what it means to be perfect just like Jesus was.

Restin,

To me your list of actions implies to me you're thinking of perfection in terms of legalism, i.e. I will have to do all these things to be perfect.

Is that correct?

[Gail]

Thanks once again, Kevin, for your wise insight!

If we are to have a goal to perfection it is not keeping the checklist (this is the way I see it).

It is in our faithfulness to Him. As we consider Jesus in our thoughts, as we read of Him in God's word (for He is the Word made flesh), we will, by His Spirit that dwells in us, be changed. Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith. It is He who will do the finishing!

When you seek Him every day, the Spirit will bring to light things about you that conflict with the mind of Christ. As you listen to God working upon your heart, you will find Him a gentle teacher.

The Beatitudes tell us that it is the meek who inherit the earth, the poor in spirit who possess the kingdom of heaven and the peacemakers who are the children of God. The Jews of His day had a checklist- and a big one at that! He blew them away when he talked of the heart.

God takes us every day, every moment, from where we are at, and leads us further along. It doesn't matter how badly we have sinned that day, if we come to Him He again takes us from where we are at and leads us again along the way.

It is our faithfulness in returning to Him that counts. It is coming again to His feet in order that HE do the leading, and our willingness to follow, that brings about the perfection. It is our meekness and submission to Him, no matter what, that will bring the change.

[Gail]

Quote:

So, now it irritates me because it sounds like a cheap shot pastors do to motivate the audience, who seem not to pay a bit of attention to it, or maybe are wiser than I and don't get upset like I do.

It is a cheap shot in that it doesn't give the whole story, or focus on the remedy.

[Textus Receptus]

The SDA church is falliable for it is a man made organization inspired by God. As such, the church organization will never be perfect, however, it is those members who truly seek the will of God that are made perfect through Christ.

Think of it this way, the church does not make up the SDA church, yet the SDA church has members that make up the body of Christ. As such, many of Christ's followers are also found outside the SDA organziation. They may be those who have found the sabbath truth, who are privy to the Anti-christ and the Roman Church and follow the 10 commandemnts etc but are not members of the SDA church. Granted, they may not have the total understanding of the plan of salvation yet their obedience to the 10 commandments certainly makes them saints of the one true God.

I can certainly understand why people have the presumtion that the SDA church is a cult when we some have a mind set that the SDA church must be perfect in order for God to return

[LifeHiscost]

I had just come back from prayer meeting where this about being perfect like Jesus was touted once again. The way they say it, it sounds to me like Christ's last day people will totally never do one thing bad or wrong anymore...never hang up on the telemarketer, never say one impatient word to the wife/husband, never break the Sabbath in any way for even one minute, and also give up the house and car and live on the streets of the bad side of town to convert as many as possible, 24/7. I'm sitting in the prayer meeting thinking this about what it means to be perfect just like Jesus was.

To some degree that is the way I spent the first 25 or thirty years in the church, until I began to question when those texts in the Word would be less than truthful. I eventually realized as long as this nature I inherited from Adam was part of my experience, my only peace, that which Jesus said passes understanding, could only be achieved by accepting fully the imputed righteousness of Jesus right now, and while His imparted righteousness is in progress as He more fully works in my life, it will not be perfected in its' fullness until Jesus returns to claim those who would rather die than carry anything into the kingdom that would defile that home of everlasting purity.

"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. "1 Corinthians 15:51-53 NKJV

If we had already reached that condition of absolute flawlessness before Jesus returns, what would be the reason for a change at Jesus' coming? And if we could reach some condition as to be as perfect as Jesus, when would we no longer have to ask for the cleansing of His blood? In other words, when would the Bible as it now reads, no longer apply to me?

I'm convicted while I now by faith, rely on the new nature (the new creation) to live my life successfully, it will not be brought to the fullness of perfection until I receive that change that God alone provides at the coming of Jesus, the second time.

As one person has stated it, by grace I'm not what I used to, but thank God, by grace I'm not where I'm going to be.

"Let your character or moral disposition be free from love of money [including greed, avarice, lust, and craving for earthly possessions] and be satisfied with your present [circumstances and with what you have]; for He [God] Himself has said, I will not in any way fail you nor give you up nor leave you without support. [i will] not, [i will] not, [i will] not in any degree leave you helpless nor forsake nor let [you] down (relax My hold on you)! [Assuredly not!]" Hebrews 13:5 AMP parenthesis brackets their's LHC

God cares!

[Woody]

I've not followed this thread. But I thought the church was getting worse not better. Which is it?

[lazarus]

I had just come back from prayer meeting where this about being perfect like Jesus was touted once again. The way they say it, it sounds to me like Christ's last day people will totally never do one thing bad or wrong anymore...never hang up on the telemarketer, never say one impatient word to the wife/husband, never break the Sabbath in any way for even one minute, and also give up the house and car and live on the streets of the bad side of town to convert as many as possible, 24/7. I'm sitting in the prayer meeting thinking this about what it means to be perfect just like Jesus was.

Restin, let me share this. This is from the paragraph prior to the quote you mentioned. Context is everything!

If you have accepted Christ as a personal Saviour, you are to forget yourself, and try to help others. Talk of the love of Christ, tell of His goodness. Do every duty that presents itself. Carry the burden of souls upon your heart, and by every means in your power seek to save the lost. As you receive the Spirit of Christ--the Spirit of unselfish love and labor for others--you will grow and bring forth fruit. The graces of the Spirit will ripen in your character. Your faith will increase, your convictions deepen, your love be made perfect. More and more you will reflect the likeness of Christ in all that is pure, noble, and lovely. {COL 67.3}

"The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance." Galatians 5:22, 23. This fruit can never perish, but will produce after its kind a harvest unto eternal life.

EGW is very practical and balanced. It's not about not doing bad things its about being like Jesus. When I think about being like Jesus in terms of what he did I get inspired. When I think about Jesus in terms of what I shouldn't do I get discouraged. Here's what she recommends just before "when the character of Christ is...

Forget yourself.

Help others.

Talk of the love of Christ.

Tell of his goodness.

Do every duty that presents itself (take opportunities to do good).

Seek to win the lost.

[debbym]

human nature is not getting worse, it is the same, selfish, and has been for thousands of years.

God's nature is not getting better it is the same forever and ever.

The church is selfish human beings experiencing the eternally merciful, loving, gracious, empowering, forgiving, generous God.

God is in charge of his church, if you are having a problem with the church take it up with the one in charge.

[JoeMo]

I like what your saying, Rachel. The only issue I have is that you seem to be assuming that during the "7th-day" millenium, we will all be in heaven. I know that is what all good SDA's are supposed to believe; but I'm not so sure. Without getting into a majorly long Bible study, I find plenty of evidence that indicated the "7th day" millenium will be here on earth. Who else are the "nations" that come to Zion for holy days, new moons and Sabbaths? Will not all of us resurrected at the second coming already be circumcised of the flesh at the second coming (the beginning of the 7th millenium)?

I'm saying this without having visited your website yet; but I intend to.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

God is in charge of his church, if you are having a problem with the church take it up with the one in charge.

Seems simple enough to me.

God cares!

[joeb]

The SDA church is falliable for it is a man made organization inspired by God. As such, the church organization will never be perfect, however, it is those members who truly seek the will of God that are made perfect through Christ.

Think of it this way, the church does not make up the SDA church, yet the SDA church has members that make up the body of Christ. As such, many of Christ's followers are also found outside the SDA organziation. They may be those who have found the sabbath truth, who are privy to the Anti-christ and the Roman Church and follow the 10 commandemnts etc but are not members of the SDA church. Granted, they may not have the total understanding of the plan of salvation yet their obedience to the 10 commandments certainly makes them saints of the one true God.

I can certainly understand why people have the presumtion that the SDA church is a cult when we some have a mind set that the SDA church must be perfect in order for God to return

I can't think of a text, or a SOP quote, that says the church itself will be perfect before Christ can come. If there is one, I'd really like to see it.

The only quote that I can think of that is probably being referred to is from COL, and it talks about people having the character of Christ.

[Tom Wetmore]

Thanks Laz! That is exactly correct. And it is consistent with what Jesus said would be the sign that would distinguish his followers - quite simply that they love one another. And his description of the key point of distinction at the judgment, that this love manifests itself in acts of compassion and kindness even to the least among us.

[Kevin H]

Thanks Laz! That is exactly correct. And it is consistent with what Jesus said would be the sign that would distinguish his followers - quite simply that they love one another. And his description of the key point of distinction at the judgment, that this love manifests itself in acts of compassion and kindness even to the least among us.

[Restin]

I'm listening.

[LifeHiscost]

I'm listening.

And I'm wondering for what you're listening?

God Cares!

[Restin]

LHC, a good question. 2 things, I think. First I hope Jesus comes soon, but that comment about the church being perfect first looks like it's never going to happen. But comments here at the forum, plus another time we brought this up, have helped me understand perfection if I try hard to.

2nd thing is I wish preachers & leaders would realize that people (that is, me) are not encouraged to try harder by this "threat" and I wish they would cut it out!

[Neil D]

Just gotta push this saw one more time: "When the church perfectly reflects the character of Christ, then He will come..."

I don't know what you want, Restin....I'm already perfect...I got written lab reports that say that I am ...plus I have the promise of Christ...So, if I'm this way, everyone else must be....

[Kevin H]

Just found this on facebook. Have not had the chance to look at more than the Facebook teaser, but since this is the same topic I am sharing it here for our study and discussion. Don't know how much I will agree or disagree with this yet but as Eli Siegel said it is well for something to be known:

John T McLarty

It is natural for us to want the church to perfectly reflect our understanding of the character of Jesus. We want the church to be seen as noble, generous, wise, compassionate, principled, disciplined. It's a short step from this desire for the church to live up to our ideals to wishing some people would just go away. . . . zealous preachers within the Adventist Church have called for strenuous efforts to purge the church of riffraff. These dreams of a purged, pure church do not come from Jesus. --from today's sermon at Green Lake Church. See manuscript at: http://greenlakesda.org/2013/07/after-the-revolution-2/

[joeb]

LHC, a good question. 2 things, I think. First I hope Jesus comes soon, but that comment about the church being perfect first looks like it's never going to happen. But comments here at the forum, plus another time we brought this up, have helped me understand perfection if I try hard to.

2nd thing is I wish preachers & leaders would realize that people (that is, me) are not encouraged to try harder by this "threat" and I wish they would cut it out!

Restin,

What do you mean by what I bolded?