MY personal opinion is this

[Stan]

MY personal opinion is this,

I really do not care if males or ordained and females are not. Or if females are and males are not.

What I want to see is results. The gosple expanding, people giving their lives over to Christ, transformed lives, expanding the Kingdom.

I have seen females to that and males fail.

I have seen males to that and females fail.

[Woody]

[olger]

In other words: "It doesn't matter to you." I can accept that.

But what if it matters to God, as indicated by both Scriptural command and real-life practice of the early Church?

`oG

[Stan]

The real-life practice of the early church did not ordain the way we do, that was brought in by Catholicism and we are trying to duplicate it and their terminology. We even call Godly men and women Brother and Sister, where does that come from?

I can find where those who do the will of God are my brother and sister, but Paul never said go see Brother Peter or Sister Mary Lou,

[Stan]

I've confidence in what Jesus said. In the Gospel commission he told everybody to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

[olger]

"But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace" (1 Cor 7:15).

"If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?" (James 2:15).

G

[CoAspen]

MY personal opinion is this,

I really do not care if males or ordained and females are not. Or if females are and males are not.

What I want to see is results. The gosple expanding, people giving their lives over to Christ, transformed lives, expanding the Kingdom.

I have seen females to that and males fail.

I have seen males to that and females fail.

My answer in action,

A young couple in our church has been working with refuges from around the world in a suburb of Denver. They help them with their gardens, fixing homes, cleaning up the neighborhood and just every day life. The refuges are a part of their lives and they have become a part of theirs. They recently decided that they should become full fledged neighbors and moved into the neighbor hood. They have 'adopted' an Iraqi family with 4 children where the father lost his wife and baby in a car bomb attack and his oldest son has injuries from a road side bomb. Their reward....the father hugging them and saying, "You are my brother, you are my sister".

For God so loved the world that He sent His only Son to live with us.

[olger]

I've confidence in what Jesus said. In the Gospel commission he told everybody to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

Is the Great Commission at variance with Paul's writings? If so we must choose one or the other, or prayerfully seek to understand the meaning of the text. Matthew 28:20 (Great Commission) uses the word didasko, the very word that Paul forbids a woman to do (1 Timothy 2:12).

It could be that Paul permits a woman to matheteuo:G3100 though restricting them from didasko-ing a man. Or it could be that Paul anticipated that Christian Believers would read and follow his biblical instructions and women would minister to women (Titus 2:4) as only they can and that men would be ordained as elders as per biblical instruction (Titus 1:5-10; 1 Timothy 3:1-5).

The word "ordain" is in the Bible kathistemi:G2525. We can not deny that. It means to appoint, to designate, to set.

Mike Peabody recently asked me to review an article on the meaning & custom of ordination. I did. I am unconvinced that the Adventist church is following papal patterns in lieu of Scripture in the appointing of pastors and elders. I am convinced though, that something has changed.

What has changed dramatically in the last fifty years is the concept of meaning and truth in our culture. Over the last thirty years this has been increasingly evident in the WO push for acceptance. Once it was the responsibility of theological scholars and preachers to find the fixed meaning of a Bible text and justify it with grammatical and historical arguments, and then explain it. Meaning in texts was not created by Bible scholars and preachers. It was found, because the authors put it there. Authors had intentions. And it was a matter of integrity to find what a writer intended—that was the meaning of the Word of God, the Bible. Everybody knew that if a person wrote “no” and someone else creatively interpreted it to mean “yes,” something fraudulent had happened.

But we have fallen a long way from that integrity. In biblical interpretation today, it is common to say that meaning is whatever you see, not what the author said or intended.

[Stan]

"But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace" (1 Cor 7:15).

"If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?" (James 2:15).

G

As I said that earlier.. they are brothers and sisters, to call them Brother John and Sister Mary is not found by example in the Bible. This was instituted by the Church of Rome. That itself does not make it wrong.

[BobRyan]

My personal view is that this is God's church - not the work of rogue elements in various conferences who happen to be in leadership.

If the denomination as a group votes one way or the other - I will support them.

Having said that - the general rule that has held true so far has been that when you see AToday and Spectrum line up against our denomination on this or that issue - the truth is certain to be found in favor of the Denomination.

Some will argue that even a broken clock is right twice a day - and certainly that is true. But I have yet to find that time of day that favors Spectrum.

in Christ,

Bob

[olger]

My personal view is that this is God's church - not the work of rogue elements in various conferences who happen to be in leadership.

If the denomination as a group votes one way or the other - I will support them.

Having said that - the general rule that has held true so far has been that when you see AToday and Spectrum line up against our denomination on this or that issue - the truth is certain to be found in favor of the Denomination.

Some will argue that even a broken clock is right twice a day - and certainly that is true. But I have yet to find that time of day that favors Spectrum.

in Christ,

Bob

Brilliant!!

[EmptyTomb]

Injustice has sometimes been done to women who labor just as devotedly as their husbands, and who are recognized by God as being necessary to the work of the ministry. The method of paying men laborers, and not paying their wives who share their labors with them, is a plan not according to the Lord's order, and if carried out in our conferences, is liable to discourage our sisters from qualifying themselves for the work they should engage in. God is a God of justice, and if the ministers receive a salary for their work, their wives who devote themselves just as disinterestedly to the work, should be paid in addition to the wages their husbands receive, even though they may not ask for this. {Ev 492.3}

Seventh-day Adventists are not in any way to belittle woman's work. If a woman puts her housework in the hands of a faithful, prudent helper, and leaves her children in good care, while she engages in the work, the conference should have wisdom to understand the justice of her receiving wages.--Gospel Workers, pp. 452, 453. (1915) {Ev 492.4}

[Gail]

Injustice has sometimes been done to women who labor just as devotedly as their husbands, and who are recognized by God as being necessary to the work of the ministry. The method of paying men laborers, and not paying their wives who share their labors with them, is a plan not according to the Lord's order, and if carried out in our conferences, is liable to discourage our sisters from qualifying themselves for the work they should engage in. God is a God of justice, and if the ministers receive a salary for their work, their wives who devote themselves just as disinterestedly to the work, should be paid in addition to the wages their husbands receive, even though they may not ask for this. {Ev 492.3}

Seventh-day Adventists are not in any way to belittle woman's work. If a woman puts her housework in the hands of a faithful, prudent helper, and leaves her children in good care, while she engages in the work, the conference should have wisdom to understand the justice of her receiving wages.--Gospel Workers, pp. 452, 453. (1915) {Ev 492.4}

[joeb]

As I said that earlier.. they are brothers and sisters, to call them Brother John and Sister Mary is not found by example in the Bible. This was instituted by the Church of Rome. That itself does not make it wrong.

I sorta kinda agree with you on this, Stan. I don't have real strong feelings one way or the other, but have always been uncomfortable using the "brother" or "sister" appellation with people just because they are a member of the church.

It's almost like it implies church membership is salvational, and that bothers me.

[EmptyTomb]

47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Matt 12:47-50 (KJV)

31 There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.

32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.

33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?

34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Mark 3:31-35 (KJV)

[joeb]

47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Matt 12:47-50 (KJV)

31 There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.

32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.

33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?

34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Mark 3:31-35 (KJV)

Do you go up to your siblings and say, Hi brother/sister insert_their_name_here? I very much doubt it, so using this text to support the usage of brother/sister whoever, is pretty much out of context and the normal usage of what Christ is referring to here.

[EmptyTomb]

Only church members joeb.

For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Matt 12:47-50 (KJV)

[Gail]

Using titles for those who are "family" seems like an oxymoron to me...

If they are family, I would think that people should be less formal, not more.

[EmptyTomb]

Ever since i can remember at church we consider each other brother and sister.We don,t say it as a form of greeting but occasionally as a term of endearment.

[olger]

Ever since i can remember at church we consider each other brother and sister.We don,t say it as a form of greeting but occasionally as a term of endearment.

Tis so.

[joeb]

Only church members joeb.

For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Matt 12:47-50 (KJV)

Does church membership mean someone is going to be saved, or that they are not a "tare" and must be "wheat"? I don't think so. And, if someone truly is my brother or sister in Christ, then they are closer to me than my own relatives, and the appelation is thus unnecessary.

I don't call my physical brother, Brother Bill, so why would I call my spiritual brother, Brother Bob? Makes no sense to me at all and I'm very uncomfortable with it.... It seems very formal, and thus pretty much unloving at its heart.

[EmptyTomb]

I believe mostly calling someone brother or sister is making that person feel like they belong or are loved and accepted.

Salvation is not guaranteed or presumed because we use that salutation.

Not sure why it seems to upset you so much.Most of the time we call each other by our given names,but on special occasions we do say brother or sister. There is certainly nothing wrong with that.

[joeb]

I believe mostly calling someone brother or sister is making that person feel like they belong or are loved and accepted.

Salvation is not guaranteed or presumed because we use that salutation.

Not sure why it seems to upset you so much.Most of the time we call each other by our given names,but on special occasions we do say brother or sister. There is certainly nothing wrong with that.

Who said I'm upset? I didn't. I said I was uncomfortable with it, and gave some of my reasons. There's one last reason I'm uncomfortable with it. I've been to a self-supporting ministry where the brother/sister insert_name_here was used every time anyone addressed another person. It didn't matter if they had just met them or not, or knew anything about them.

This ministry made me feel very uncomfortable. For Friday evening vespers the leader gave a talk and it seemed like every Biblical point he made he said, God told me such and such. That made me question his sincerity right off the top. Then, I'd gone there to meet a woman I'd met at campmeeting. We were both in our mid-to-late 20s so chaperoning was not something that was required. Yet, when the leader found out I was visiting this gal in her little trailer he about came unglued and basically kicked me out of the place. The overt jealousy in his wording and actions really made me wonder just what this guy was up to. And the gal was so afraid she wouldn't even talk to me afterwards.

Thus, the brother/sister stuff really became associated with a bad situation. And, in almost every situation I've been in where it was used a lot it was very much associated with people who were very legalistic.

Thus, besides not seeing any real Biblical support in that which is often quoted, I have only seen this behavior in negative situations.

I'm not against self-supporting ministries. I think many of them do a very good job. And, many of them do the work that the church should be doing, but isn't. I've had one bad experience with them, and that one is where the brother/sister appellation was, in my estimation, almost a commandment to them.

[debbym]

Quote:

Yet, when the leader found out I was visiting this gal in her little trailer he about came unglued and basically kicked me out of the place.

yes the warning lights are all blinking like mad, this guy sounds like a cult leader, like david koresh of waco.

[olger]

I'm not against self-supporting ministries. I think many of them do a very good job. And, many of them do the work that the church should be doing, but isn't. I've had one bad experience with them, and that one is where the brother/sister appellation was, in my estimation, almost a commandment to them.

Without supporting this individual, or knowing the complete context, Joeb, could it be that being alone with a woman (not your wife) in her "trailer" may have the appearance of evil (1 Thessalonians 5:22)?

I can kind of see both sides here - yours because your conscience is clear, and his/theirs because of appearance. I do not condone him using "anger" to address the situation - it might have been much better for him to give you both the benefit of the doubt and explain the verse in 1 Thessalonians 5 in a way that would ultimately be a blessing for all three of you. That's how I see it, based on my limited knowledge of what occurred.

Rejoice always,

`G