Hair Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 Not sure of your reply to Gregory? That wasn't to Gregory, I'm sorry. I just hit reply under the last post which happened to be his and replied that way... my bad. I just now see how it works lol, there's no telling how many times I've done that... I didn't know. I'm glad you pointed that out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted July 14, 2013 Members Share Posted July 14, 2013 No problem Hair, but am still curious as to whom the reply was meant for? Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Naomi Posted July 14, 2013 Administrators Share Posted July 14, 2013 Quote: I can see, in the future, an ordained SDA pastor coming out and saying he is gay. If his local church supports him and he says he's celibate then it would be a challenging scenario for the church . I really don't see a union voting to ordain openly gay pastors unless someone discovers a hidden EGW manuscript. We ordain heterosexual people who are celibate. There is no documentation that supports the idea that one can change their sexual preference. One does not chose their sexual orientation. If one is open in regard to their homosexual sexual orientation, but celibate, should that bar them from ordination? Should a single, celibate, open hetrosexual be bared from ordination? One question here and I will bow out of this "hot-potato" subject. How do we determine, beyond a reasonable doubt, if a hetrosexual or homosexual is truly celibate? Hidden cameras, mics, KGB ... okay I apologize that is tacky ... devil made me do it. Quote If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted July 14, 2013 Members Share Posted July 14, 2013 Good ? Naomi. We don't would be my answer. That will between the person and God. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 One question here and I will bow out of this "hot-potato" subject. How do we determine, beyond a reasonable doubt, if a hetrosexual or homosexual is truly celibate? Hidden cameras, mics, KGB ... okay I apologize that is tacky ... devil made me do it. I love it! I too want to know just how these things are to be determined....I was under the impression that bedroom watching is not allowed..... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted July 15, 2013 Moderators Share Posted July 15, 2013 One question here and I will bow out of this "hot-potato" subject. How do we determine, beyond a reasonable doubt, if a hetrosexual or homosexual is truly celibate? Innocent until proven guilty!!! Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted July 15, 2013 Moderators Share Posted July 15, 2013 There is no documentation that supports the idea that one can change their sexual preference. One does not chose their sexual orientation. This is where the challenge comes in. Of course, many will claim that it can be changed and that there will be those that will claim that they have changed. I have such an individual in my church. Quote: If one is open in regard to their homosexual sexual orientation, but celibate, should that bar them from ordination? For some, the the fact that someone is same gender attracted is enough to bar them from pastoral ministry. There are a couple of single male pastors I know who may be gay but I guess the policy is don't ask don't tell. Quote: Should a single, celibate, open heterosexual be bared from ordination? Some take that view but the church as a whole does not. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 "There is no documentation that supports the idea that one can change their sexual preference. One does not chose their sexual orientation." No documentation, you say. I take it from this statement that you would not accept the testimony of an individual whom God has changed. There are many of them. Let me list a few, who's testimonies are available and inspiring. Wayne Blakely Mike Carducci John 317 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. “Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time” (Revelation 12:11-12). God is in the business of changing lives! `G Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted July 15, 2013 Members Share Posted July 15, 2013 No documentation, you say. I take it from this statement that you would not accept the testimony of an individual whom God has changed. There are many of them. Let me list a few, who's testimonies are available and inspiring. Wayne Blakely Mike Carducci John 317 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. “Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time” (Revelation 12:11-12). God is in the business of changing lives! `G I'm in definite agreement with you G on this. I don't claim to know much about this issue, but do recall John317 make some comments on this, on another thread, I believe. Mentioning something about the doctors that claim people are born this way are all "gay" and that no other doctors claim this. Not sure if that's what he said, so I'd rather he comment on this issue, since he has done a lot of research into this. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 Gotcha. Dr. John Ratey (leading expert on neuroscience and brain plasticity at Harvard ) says this: “The point to remember is that the issue is not nature versus nurture. It is the balance between nature and nurture. Genes do not make a man gay, or violent, or fat, or a leader. Genes merely make proteins. The chemical effect of these proteins may make the man's brain and body more receptive to certain environmental influences. But the extent of those influences will have as much to do with the outcome as the genes themselves. Furthermore, we humans are not prisoners of our genes or our environment. We have free will. Genes are overruled every time an angry man restrains his temper, a fat man diets, and an alocholic refuses to take a drink. On the other hand, the environment is overruled every time a genetic effect wins out, as when Lou Gehrig's athletic ability was overruled by his ALS. Genes and the environment work together to shape our brains, and we can manage them both if we want to. It may be harder for people with certain genes or surroundings, but "harder" is a long way from pedetermination.” -- John J. Ratey Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted July 16, 2013 Author Moderators Share Posted July 16, 2013 Quote: Gotcha. Dr. John Ratey (leading expert on neuroscience and brain plasticity at Harvard ) says this: Gotcha: You have got to be kidding. In my opinion, There is no reliable evidence that there is a homosexual gene. Period. I have never claimed such. What I have said is: Sexual preference is not a choice. I Did not chose to be a heterosexual. A person with a sexual preference for the same sex did not chose that preference. Challenge me if you wish. However, please do not build up a straw-man, claim it is me and then destroy it. We are what we are in part, by our genes, the way our brains are wired during the developmental period, and our neuro-chemistry. Out genes are only one part. NOTE: I said, in part. There are other aspects that I have not mentioned. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted July 16, 2013 Author Moderators Share Posted July 16, 2013 Quote: No documentation, you say. I take it from this statement that you would not accept the testimony of an individual whom God has changed. There are many of them. Let me list a few, who's testimonies are available and inspiring. AS I have posted before. You raise a fundamental question. That question is: 1) How do we define a homosexual? 2) Do we define a homosexual by behavior? If we do, than it is clear that people can change and God can change. 3) Or, do we define homosexual by sexual preference? If we define in this manner, the documentation is also clear that homosexuals who become celibate remain attracted to their same sex. In this case the individuals who claim to no longer be attracted to their same sex are statistically "outliers." The bottom line is that in the vast majority of times sexual preference does not change in people who actually have a sexual preference for their same gender and that God does not normally intervene to change that. What God does is to give them the strength to change their behavior. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 No Gotcha...... John J. Ratey, M.D.,(born April 7, 1948) is associate clinical professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School.[1] He is the coauthor, with Edward Hallowell of the books Driven to Distraction, Answers to Distraction, and Delivered from Distraction. He is also the author of Shadow Syndromes. In 2001 he published the book A User's Guide to the Brain, in which he describes the human brain as a flexible muscle, which works on a "use it or lose it" basis. He is the author of Spark: The Revolutionary New Science of Exercise and the Brain (2008), which describes the positive benefits that exercise can have for people with ADHD. His books are all about exercise and the brain. No where is he listed as a "leading expert on neuroscience" in any of the pages of a Google search. We will assume that he possibly is what you claim, but, putting that all aside, taking a statement out the context and reason for which it was written is just lame. Some of his statements in the above quote seem rather simplistic and are not in agreement with many other scientists. Manage your genes....really...would like to see the proof on that. On the spiritual side that would suggest mankind can overcome evil and choose to be good, manage those genes!!Lets get back on topic and stop the rerouting...rerouting...rerouting.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 Grag, the gotcha was for Pkrause - as an acknowledgement of his agreeing with my statement on God's ability to change. Dr. John Ratey's excellent work was cited as germaine to the conversation - as we discuss whether people are born homo-sexual or not. I believe that they are not. Homosexuality is a varied combination of many elements. There are external contributors for sure, but in the end it is the choosing heart that determines not only our destiny, but the choices we make that determine that destiny. Having a proclivity towards a particular sin is never in the eyes of God a justification for indulging that proclivity. God gave Jesus that we might be "justified" and delivered from sin. Good news for sure. Also - You said you didn't choose your heterosexuality, presumably as an attempt to divest homosexuality of choice. I have this to respond. I did not choose to be straight. I am naturally straight. And since straight is natural, that makes homosexuality either a choice or an aberration. "And He (Jesus) answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?" (Matthew 19:4). Rejoice always, `G Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeb Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 CoAspen, Do you believe people are born liars, born thieves, born being covetous, born adulterers, etc... and they must be that way for their entire lives, that there is no overcoming their sinful predilection? Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 The Bible says we are born sinners and in need of a saviour! No, we will not stop being sinners. Yes, we can stop repeating the same 'sins', but if we don't, occasionly falling back, our trust and belief in the salvation brought about by Christ covers us. This has nothing to do with the ordination of women!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeb Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 The Bible says we are born sinners and in need of a saviour!No, we will not stop being sinners. Yes, we can stop repeating the same 'sins', but if we don't, occasionly falling back, our trust and belief in the salvation brought about by Christ covers us. This has nothing to do with the ordination of women!!! CoAspen, You were engaging Olger on sexual preferences and disagreeing with him. I'm just pointing out that homosexuality is no more "addicting" than any other sin. We're all hereditarily disposed to one sin or another, yet God has the power to change our lives, the patterns of our thoughts, and to overcome our hereditary dispositions to sin. The surrender of self to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit gives us the fruit of the Spirit, and Paul tells us that in that fruit there is nothing that violates any law, including God's. I just don't see why homosexuality should be seen as somehow different than any other sin in its power over those who are disposed to indulge in it. Sin is sin. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Cochoa Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 Grag, the gotcha was for Pkrause - as an acknowledgement of his agreeing with my statement on God's ability to change. Dr. John Ratey's excellent work was cited as germaine to the conversation - as we discuss whether people are born homo-sexual or not. I believe that they are not. Homosexuality is a varied combination of many elements. There are external contributors for sure, but in the end it is the choosing heart that determines not only our destiny, but the choices we make that determine that destiny. Having a proclivity towards a particular sin is never in the eyes of God a justification for indulging that proclivity. God gave Jesus that we might be "justified" and delivered from sin. Good news for sure. Also - You said you didn't choose your heterosexuality, presumably as an attempt to divest homosexuality of choice. I have this to respond. I did not choose to be straight. I am naturally straight. And since straight is natural, that makes homosexuality either a choice or an aberration. "And He (Jesus) answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?" (Matthew 19:4). Rejoice always, `G I agree with most of that, with one possible exception: just as babies may be born alcoholic, I believe that they may be born homosexual. The alcoholic baby, despite his inherited weakness, must learn to "deny himself" and follow Christ. The same is true of the born homosexual. I definitely agree that homosexuality is either a choice or an aberration, and it is always sinful. None should be in darkness about this, for nature itself teaches us what God's design is. Blessings, Green Cochoa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 I can't concur with "born alcoholic" but I could concur with "proclivity" or genetic weakness. Remember the Pottenger Cats? Alcohol can have a biological genetic effect. There is no gay gene, just as there is no cheating-on-income-taxes gene. You are comparing a biological weakness with a spiritual sin - and spiritual sin comes from the heart according to Jesus (Matthew 15:18-19; Proverbs 4:23). blessings, `G Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 CoAspen, You were engaging Olger on sexual preferences and disagreeing with him. I'm just pointing out that homosexuality is no more "addicting" than any other sin. We're all hereditarily disposed to one sin or another, yet God has the power to change our lives, the patterns of our thoughts, and to overcome our hereditary dispositions to sin. The surrender of self to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit gives us the fruit of the Spirit, and Paul tells us that in that fruit there is nothing that violates any law, including God's. I just don't see why homosexuality should be seen as somehow different than any other sin in its power over those who are disposed to indulge in it. Sin is sin. A well reasoned post. And biblical. g Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 Quote: True, Mike. A person would have to be intentionally oblivious (and astigmatic) to miss where this is leading !!!!!! Then consider me oblivious and astigmatic. I have had a woman pastor; and loved her. I have never had (and don't imagine I will ever see) an openly gay pastor in the SDA church (secret gay may be another matter). I belong to a really liberal church that has reformed gays in the congregation. None of them has ever even raised the issue that I am aware of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 Quote: What I have said is: Sexual preference is not a choice. I Did not chose to be a heterosexual. Well said. I never made a conscious choice to be heterosexual either - I just "was". I have several gay friends and acquaintences who said thay never made a conscious decision to be gay - they just "were". All that exposure to gay people over my 60-plus years has never tempted me to reconsider my sexual preferences. Nature, nurture, or both; people are what they are. All of us have a fallen nature; and many of us have issues in our lives that will exclude us from heaven just as much as gay behavior might, were it not for the grace of Jesus. Guess what? He loves gay and straight people equally; and offers both the same ticket to heaven - His grace! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 I will Sir. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Quote: I have never had (and don't imagine I will ever see) an openly gay pastor in the SDA church (secret gay may be another matter). I was thinking about this part of my previous post. I would be willing to bet (if I were a betting man) that there have almost always been and are currently discrete or celibate gay men in denominational ministry; and maybe even church leadership. I'm not saying it's right or wrong; I'm just saying it's very likely a fact. These men love the Lord and want to serve Him as much as any of us; they just aren't wired the way straight men are. "How did they ever get into the ministry?" you may ask. Easy -they are more difficult to spot than women. It's easier to exclude women from the ministry than it is to exclude gays because women look different than men; but gay men frequently look and behave the same as straight men. Just call me Captain Obvious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators debbym Posted July 17, 2013 Administrators Share Posted July 17, 2013 Quote: Easy -they are more difficult to spot than women. It's easier to exclude women from the ministry than it is to exclude gays because women look different than men; but gay men frequently look and behave the same as straight men. Just call me Captain Obvious. i am 100% positive there are homosexual males in sda church ministerial leadership, this is true and accurate. i would add it is not in any flaunted. Quote deb Love awakens love. Let God be true and every man a liar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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