Something that puzzles me..........

[M. T. Cross]

Over and over again on this site I see it brought up that a male pastor, elder, deacon, etc should never council a woman alone. I see this fear of men and women being alone with anyone of the opposite gender other than their spouse.

Really? Do so many have so little control over their sex drive? I really don't get it. Most of my friends are women. Beautiful women. Is there an attraction there between us? Yes. But ya know what? We are grown ups and can recognize that the resulting long term effects of a sexual relationship highly outweigh the short term pleasures that may be had.

So what is it with Christians with their supposed superior moral code that has them so very scared, so very unable to control themselves?

I really would love an answer to this.

[Liz]

It's not that either side has so little self-control. One reason is to not have the appearance of something going on. Sadly, some people like nothing better than to gossip, so having three people in the room, pretty much squelches that. And it protects each party, one never knows the mental state of another person and having a third party there helps with the "he said she said" problems that can and do arise from time to time.

[CoAspen]

Sex scares the _ _ _ _ out of lot of christians, especially of the conservative congregation. I understand what cricket is saying, but my experience with these many long years of being a part of the church, gossip is an even bigger issue!! Everyone is afraid of what someone else will see or say....a little sad isn't it. For me, i see it as a bit of 'avoiding the appearance of evil', people are afraid of...maybe a tinge of legalism.

Good observation!!!

[Liz]

I understand what cricket is saying,

Did you mean me, or did Cricket say something in a different thread?

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

So what is it with Christians with their supposed superior moral code that has them so very scared, so very unable to control themselves?

I really would love an answer to this.

When one is already without the gift of eternal life, there is no great struggle for the soul of a man. The most highly ethical person often believes their superior goodness is all they need to be acceptable in the kingdom of heaven, and that of course would be if there really is a heaven, not realizing that if it is true that there is,

"...we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags"Isaiah 64:6 NKJV

That's why we all need a Savior.

God cares!

[debbym]

i think it is because there is lots of room for misunderstanding when a man or women in emotional distress seeks support from the opposite sex, in a private appointment.

friends are a completely different relationship.

counseling pastoral or otherwise, the relationship is more then a friend, often rapid deep intimate disclosure, and then you leave and may not speak again for a long time, this is being less then a friend.

friends tend to get all the boundaries sorted out over time while the friendship is forming.

sessions, have professional boundaries, hopefully on the part of the service provider. but... we all know professionals do not always keep their boundaries, for whatever reasons, and clients can fail too.

[CoAspen]

Shame on me.....I have the posters mixed up!!! Sorry, I was replying to Wonderful Liz!

[Green Cochoa]

Over and over again on this site I see it brought up that a male pastor, elder, deacon, etc should never council a woman alone. I see this fear of men and women being alone with anyone of the opposite gender other than their spouse.

Really? Do so many have so little control over their sex drive? I really don't get it. Most of my friends are women. Beautiful women. Is there an attraction there between us? Yes. But ya know what? We are grown ups and can recognize that the resulting long term effects of a sexual relationship highly outweigh the short term pleasures that may be had.

So what is it with Christians with their supposed superior moral code that has them so very scared, so very unable to control themselves?

I really would love an answer to this.

[CoAspen]

Hmmmmmm......are we seeing a bit of a persecution complex??

[Liz]

Shame on me.....I have the posters mixed up!!! Sorry, I was replying to Wonderful Liz!

Aww, Thanks!! I think you're special too.

[Textus Receptus]

I personally believe that a woman should have the full confidence that a pastor would be inspired by God and therefore have the character of God guiding all of his actions. Yet, with regards to deacons and elders, it is my humble opinion, this is a different matter. Esphesians 5 states that a husband is the head of the spiritual household. As such, If the discussion revolves around a spiritual issue then scripture clearly answers the question.

Yet, in the matter of abuse, being that the woman is being abused by her husband, then she should meet only with a pastor as pastors are held to a higher standard according to biblical principles.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Mrs. White basically says in that statement that Christians are ten times more likely than non-Christians to commit adultery. Wow. So I think, in light of this, it is prudent to take every possible precaution within the church to prevent an opportunity for it, and to avoid the appearance of evil.

you're omitting a very important word in deciphering what Ellen White wrote: professed

Aside from that, I would be very uncomfortable to being a counseling session with a PROFESSIONAL counselor and have a NONPROFESSIONAL 3rd party be present. That 3rd person would be under no binding ethics to preserve confidentiality.

Frankly, I think people who are not certified/licensed counseling professionals have no business trying to do counseling. They tend to bring too much personal, subjective bias to a situation.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

........ Christians are ten times more likely than non-Christians to commit adultery.

Sounds more like a weakness in faith, but it is easier to blame it on the Devil. The ancient Jews had a long list of things that they thought would protect them from evil or the appearence there of, if they simply huged them to their chest. Didn't work out so well.

I believe the issue goes much deeper than 'being tempted more'. If christians see adultery as less of a sin and more appealing, what is that saying about their belief system? Become a christian and be tempted more, we can't distinguish between faithfulness and adultery easily, non-believers have it easier? Doesn't make Christianity very attractive!!!

[Liz]

Frankly, I think people who are not certified/licensed counseling professionals have no business trying to do counseling. They tend to bring too much personal, subjective bias to a situation.

AMEN!!! I cannot agree strongly enough!

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

Frankly, I think people who are not certified/licensed counseling professionals have no business trying to do counseling. They tend to bring too much personal, subjective bias to a situation.

AMEN!!! I cannot agree strongly enough!

That is the absolute truth! And very few pastors have any business doing any counseling other than on strictly religious/spiritual matters, because they typically don't even have any training, beyond not being licensed or certified.

When I say strictly religious/spiritual, pastors should not confuse relationship issues , i.e. marriage and family or psychological, as being just spiritual in nature. Pastors are unqualified to do marriage and family counseling and pre-marital counseling, IMHO.

Leave it to the professionals.

[olger]

Over and over again on this site I see it brought up that a male pastor, elder, deacon, etc should never council a woman alone. I see this fear of men and women being alone with anyone of the opposite gender other than their spouse.

Really? Do so many have so little control over their sex drive? I really don't get it. Most of my friends are women. Beautiful women. Is there an attraction there between us? Yes. But ya know what? We are grown ups and can recognize that the resulting long term effects of a sexual relationship highly outweigh the short term pleasures that may be had.

So what is it with Christians with their supposed superior moral code that has them so very scared, so very unable to control themselves?

I really would love an answer to this.

As Liz said.

It is not appropriate for a man to counsel a woman alone, probably why Paul asked women to counsel with women in Titus 2:3.

I have held to this rule for 23-years and never regretted it. I could name a few individuals who didn't do this and regretted it.

It doesn't have a good appearance and women will sometimes move emotionally towards a counselor. When that happens btw, a man should "go flat" emotionally towards the woman. A counselor should always push the spouse-spouse relationship regardless.

I will return emails to a woman occasionally if they have questions, - always with Nancy's knowledge. This is simply to maintain the dignity and propriety of our marriage.

rejoice always,

`G

[olger]

i think it is because there is lots of room for misunderstanding when a man or women in emotional distress seeks support from the opposite sex, in a private appointment.

friends are a completely different relationship.

counseling pastoral or otherwise, the relationship is more then a friend, often rapid deep intimate disclosure, and then you leave and may not speak again for a long time, this is being less then a friend.

friends tend to get all the boundaries sorted out over time while the friendship is forming.

sessions, have professional boundaries, hopefully on the part of the service provider. but... we all know professionals do not always keep their boundaries, for whatever reasons, and clients can fail too.

This is correct.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: greencochoa

Mrs. White basically says in that statement that Christians are ten times more likely than non-Christians to commit adultery. Wow. So I think, in light of this, it is prudent to take every possible precaution within the church to prevent an opportunity for it, and to avoid the appearance of evil.

you're omitting a very important word in deciphering what Ellen White wrote: professed

Aside from that, I would be very uncomfortable to being a counseling session with a PROFESSIONAL counselor and have a NONPROFESSIONAL 3rd party be present. That 3rd person would be under no binding ethics to preserve confidentiality.

Frankly, I think people who are not certified/licensed counseling professionals have no business trying to do counseling. They tend to bring too much personal, subjective bias to a situation.

[Green Cochoa]

Are there any "true Christians" who do not "profess" to be Christians? Doesn't Jesus say something about those who don't confess His name before men?

I understand that the term also includes those who aren't really Christians but who call themselves such. But I'm not sure it should be our place to start judging as to whom is whom.

In my usage of "Christians," I meant all those who call themselves Christian, which would include "professed Christians." I did not mean that true Christians will be committing adultery! (I hope no one took it that way!)

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

So what is it with Christians with their supposed superior moral code that has them so very scared, so very unable to control themselves?

I really would love an answer to this.

There is no reason for the arch-deceiver to tempt the person who is not relying for their strength on the King of kings, for they are already by their self congratulatory disposition, far away from knowing Him Who only has the gift of eternal life.

There may be many reasons why the believer appears to be afraid of losing control. Just as the one addicted to alcohol wishing to stay on the wagon, does not frequent saloons, so the person who knows their lust of the flesh is more than they can handle on their own, chooses to remove themselves from that atmosphere which would dishonor their Master if they gave in to the prince of darkness' temptations.

"“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18 NKJV

“I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life." John 5:24 NLT

God cares!

[olger]

Quote:

There is no reason for the arch-deceiver to tempt the person who is not relying for their strength on the King of kings, for they are already by their self congratulatory disposition, far away from knowing Him Who only has the gift of eternal life.

Profound. And I am under no illusions that unbelievers can discern this statement properly.

Blessins,

G

[cricket]

Over and over again on this site I see it brought up that a male pastor, elder, deacon, etc should never council a woman alone. I see this fear of men and women being alone with anyone of the opposite gender other than their spouse.

Really? Do so many have so little control over their sex drive? I really don't get it. Most of my friends are women. Beautiful women. Is there an attraction there between us? Yes. But ya know what? We are grown ups and can recognize that the resulting long term effects of a sexual relationship highly outweigh the short term pleasures that may be had.

So what is it with Christians with their supposed superior moral code that has them so very scared, so very unable to control themselves?

I really would love an answer to this.

Can you ever be completely sure of the motives and desires of another human being? I try to avoid being alone with anyone I haven't known for years--regardless of gender. People are scary.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

Over and over again on this site I see it brought up that a male pastor, elder, deacon, etc should never council a woman alone. I see this fear of men and women being alone with anyone of the opposite gender other than their spouse.

In the real world in which we live, the above is not practical.

Professionals are trained in "transference" and in "counter transference." In that context they are able to make appropriate decisions.

In my opinion, in the majority of times when a clergy person becomes sexually involved a root cause (not the only one) is that the clergy person was unable to acknowledge that he/she was sexually attracted to the client. With the failure to acknowledge the sexual attraction, the clergy person did not make the appropriate decision.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

That is the absolute truth! And very few pastors have any business doing any counseling other than on strictly religious/spiritual matters, because they typically don't even have any training, beyond not being licensed or certified.

I agree.

Just because the counseling is SDA, does not mean that it is valid and appropriate.

We have SDA's attempting to provide counseling who are not trained, licensed and appropriate.

While some SDA clergy are trained/licensed and appropriate, these are a minority.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

Aside from that, I would be very uncomfortable to being a counseling session with a PROFESSIONAL counselor and have a NONPROFESSIONAL 3rd party be present. That 3rd person would be under no binding ethics to preserve confidentiality.

True.

Typically the State laws on confidentiality will not apply in such a situation.

This is a major ethical issue.