Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted July 28, 2013 Administrators Share Posted July 28, 2013 Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore Leave it to the professionals. Well, there are pastors that have college and such in regards to counseling. There may be a few pastors that have college or university degrees in counseling, mental health, psych, etc. but most do not. They have a degree or degrees in theology or religion. Some may have had a class or two in college or seminary. But a few courses in counseling or psych do not count for much. I have a degree in Mental Health. But I am not qualified to be a counselor. I am not licensed or certified and have only very limited experience working a few years in the field. But even that is far more than most pastors have. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted July 28, 2013 Moderators Share Posted July 28, 2013 Quote: Well, there are pastors that have college and such in regards to counseling. A college degree does not come near to qualifying a person to do professional counseling. With some exceptions neither does a Seminary degree. NOTE: There are accredited seminaries that do offer professionally qualified degrees in counseling. Most of the students in those seminaries do NOT take that field of study. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted July 28, 2013 Administrators Share Posted July 28, 2013 One of my pastors just completed his degree. He saw a real need and used to incorporate relational and emotional stuff in his sermons until he got shifted to 1/2 time, then used his time to get educated along those lines. The day before yesterday I read a Facebook message from one of my friends... She had overdosed and then called for an ambulance and is now in hospital. Young, beautiful, believing girl in her 20s. I sure hope she can find some relief. It is hard to know someone who is suffering so, but she is not alone, even in the church. :( Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted July 28, 2013 Share Posted July 28, 2013 Quote: I am glad God spared your life mein Bruder, and I appreciate the Bible verses that you bless us with. Thank you, Og, and I speak to you as one of the family of God. The Bible verses were a gift and I've been instructed to share them with as many as I can until we're called home. Which I believe won't be as long as one might believe, one way or another. God cares! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted July 28, 2013 Share Posted July 28, 2013 At the expense of personal safety? Hi Greg, This discussion is morphing - now we seem to be talking about domestic violence. We don't run into a lot of that (2-3%), and I recommend separation if they are about to 'kill' each other. I never recommend divorce, but rather counseling to reveal & resolve the root cause of their anger. Anger is a secondary emotion. It can also become addictive. It causes a person to make many foolish decisions. We help a person understand the consequences of not controlling their anger (Proverbs 10:12; 15:1; 30:33; 19:19; 14:17; Eph 4:31 etc). * Present the Biblical solutions to a problem with anger. * Help them identify the pressure(s) or circumstances in which they have difficulty controlling their anger. * Share the biblical qualities that we are told to replace anger with (Colossians 3:8 - put off...), Colossians 3:12-14 - put on...). The Holy Spirit's ministry is to develop Christlike qualities in our lives. * Lead them in prayer to release bitterness that they are holding on to. * Check to see if there are unresolved moral issues in their life that is driving anger (more common than we might think). * Lead them in a prayer of repentance for damaging people with anger, and ask the Lord to forgive and control that area of our lives. Lead them to make a commitment to allow the Holy Spirit to develop a proper response to individuals and circumstances that make them angry. Make it a great day, G Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted July 28, 2013 Share Posted July 28, 2013 Quote: Well, there are pastors that have college and such in regards to counseling. A college degree does not come near to qualifying a person to do professional counseling. With some exceptions neither does a Seminary degree. NOTE: There are accredited seminaries that do offer professionally qualified degrees in counseling. Most of the students in those seminaries do NOT take that field of study. Over the last six years there have been at least seventeen professional counselors come to a biblical counselor, asking how to counsel. These are people who have spent 40k on a degree to learn how to counsel. We have had two such people come to us. One such individual taught psychology at a prominent University in Kansas or Nebraska. He and his wife were going to get a divorce and they came for counseling as a last ditch effort. When his wife resolved twenty years of bitterness, they came in the next morning and he said "you kept me awake all night last night. I've never seen my wife so open. I was up studying psychological models all night to see where you fit and you don't fit in any of them. All i can conclude is that you are using the principles of the Bible and applying them to the hearts of people in love. And it works." Then he started to cry. He wanted to get free too. They did. G Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted July 28, 2013 Share Posted July 28, 2013 One of my pastors just completed his degree. He saw a real need and used to incorporate relational and emotional stuff in his sermons until he got shifted to 1/2 time, then used his time to get educated along those lines. The day before yesterday I read a Facebook message from one of my friends... She had overdosed and then called for an ambulance and is now in hospital. Young, beautiful, believing girl in her 20s. I sure hope she can find some relief. It is hard to know someone who is suffering so, but she is not alone, even in the church. God be with your pastor, and God be with this girl. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted July 28, 2013 Administrators Share Posted July 28, 2013 One of my pastors just completed his degree. He saw a real need and used to incorporate relational and emotional stuff in his sermons until he got shifted to 1/2 time, then used his time to get educated along those lines... I applaud those very few pastors that sense the need to seek duel qualifications, just as Ger has mentioned about well qualified psychologists seeking to learn and understand the spiritual dimension. But what I find disturbing is an either/or mentality about these perspectives. Wisely combining both and being appropirately sensitive to a wholistic approach that addresses both the spiritual and psychological aspects is more beneficial and more likely to yield long lasting positive results. It would be a serious mistake for the psychologist to set aside/abandon/ignore their training and knowledge of psychology, just as it is inappropriate and dangerous for a minster with only theological/religious training to do counseling. The reality is that relationships in general and more so marriage have both a spiritual and psychological dimension. But an ideal marriage is wholistic in its fullest sense including the physical dimension. A properly balanced approach to mariage counseling will take all dimensions into consideration. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Naomi Posted July 28, 2013 Administrators Share Posted July 28, 2013 Tom & G. Quote If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators debbym Posted July 28, 2013 Administrators Share Posted July 28, 2013 from 1980 to 2013 I have found most all Dr.'s, and counselors, and pastors i have encountered to be of little use for solving human problems in living and relating. great for medications, great for practical problem solving involving logistics when you need that kind of help,like making the adjustment to self care as a diabetic, or ms patient. we as human beings do become pain driven and eventually we will sometimes reach out for help, and in seeking or asking for help we have done more to help ourselves then likely anything we or anyone can ever do. it is too easy to place our responsibility on others, when we feel to much pain to know what to do. we may tend to want someone to solve our problems when we feel we can't. some of us just don't reach our for help, like those who wont go to the doctor even when they have major cancer symptoms. You never know who that person is that God will use to shed some light on your heart, on your issues, on your needs, that help you take the next step. Good counselors are those who completely respect your own process of learning and become a resource to you rather then your guide. problem solving is something that happens between an individual and God. Pastors can stand in the way of this process and so can counselors. they can also lead to false answers and false solutions, and lead you on merry chases for relief and take your money and your time. they can make you feel things, and to feel good, and not get to the need you have at the time. they can identify a problem you never knew you had, help you to solve it, leave you feeling great, take your money and time and the issues you had to start with still may remain unaddressed. Then there are pastors and counselors and teachers, nurses, friends, neighbors, just natural helpers who are people anywhere you find them who God uses mightily to help solves problems. God alone knows you and your heart, your mind, your generational history. And you know more about yourself then any human being our there, and God wants to work through you to solve your problems. i have found that people who have dealt with common problems to be the most valuable source of help and understanding and insightful suggestions. and those counselors and pastors who hold common issues to the person seeking help tend to be great help. they understand the path they took in finding their answers to help themselves, by the grace of God. Quote deb Love awakens love. Let God be true and every man a liar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzarkWoman Posted July 28, 2013 Share Posted July 28, 2013 There may be a few pastors that have college or university degrees in counseling, mental health, psych, etc. but most do not. They have a degree or degrees in theology or religion. Some may have had a class or two in college or seminary. But a few courses in counseling or psych do not count for much. I have a degree in Mental Health. But I am not qualified to be a counselor. I am not licensed or certified and have only very limited experience working a few years in the field. But even that is far more than most pastors have. Well let me say this, most of the so called counselors out there that have these so much in high regard degrees, don't really have the qualifications either. So many of you seem to think that book smarts is the end all to be all. It isn't, but hey, you go ahead and live in that fantasy world of yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzarkWoman Posted July 28, 2013 Share Posted July 28, 2013 One of my pastors just completed his degree. He saw a real need and used to incorporate relational and emotional stuff in his sermons until he got shifted to 1/2 time, then used his time to get educated along those lines. The day before yesterday I read a Facebook message from one of my friends... She had overdosed and then called for an ambulance and is now in hospital. Young, beautiful, believing girl in her 20s. I sure hope she can find some relief. It is hard to know someone who is suffering so, but she is not alone, even in the church. All too often, it is the church that is the cause of pain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted July 28, 2013 Share Posted July 28, 2013 I think you make some valid points, Tom. Doesn't need to be an either/or situation. rejoice always, G Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted July 28, 2013 Moderators Share Posted July 28, 2013 Quote: So many of you seem to think that book smarts is the end all to be all. It isn't, but hey, you go ahead and live in that fantasy world of yours. Book smarts is the least of the training that professional counselors receive. I do not see anyone here advocating "book smarts." Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators debbym Posted July 28, 2013 Administrators Share Posted July 28, 2013 Quote: All too often, it is the church that is the cause of pain. our pain has it's source in ourselves. whatever happens outside of us is an external event, our pain is an internal event. external events may precipitate our pain, but a pain response is ours. and knowing this helps us be responsible for ourselves and know we can move from being in pain with our without any power over what happens externally. given that we can set boundaries and choose what we expose ourselves to. so when a male and female are in a counseling session and their is an inappropriate response according to accepted values, it is your responsibility to leave the session, and keep your boundaries. pain is communication, it is your friend, it informs you when something is not right. Quote deb Love awakens love. Let God be true and every man a liar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cricket Posted July 28, 2013 Share Posted July 28, 2013 Well, MT, you've got 64 answers to choose from. Any of them suit your fancy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann Posted July 28, 2013 Share Posted July 28, 2013 I think you make some valid points, Tom. Doesn't need to be an either/or situation. rejoice always, G If only you would agree with me on a few more points you would not be too bad, after all, Gerry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann Posted July 28, 2013 Share Posted July 28, 2013 The ministerial students should learn enough about counseling to discover that they are not universal counselors of mentally depraved individuals. They should leave that job to professionals and not meddle into something they are not qualified to handle. They should be rich in Spiritual encouragement and knowledge and be able to feed the flock to have a living relationship with God, and that should prevent and heal diseases. While attending the seminary I presented a case of a young lady who was in real trouble to the teacher who was teaching us pastoral counseling. I though he would tell me how to use what he was teaching us in a practical case. My teacher told me to leave her alone. I did not qualify removing an appendix of a church member because I had studied theology and some psychology. I shudder when I hear some pastors today - some of them without any seminary training - boasting how much time they spend counseling church members in deep trouble. Especially when I see how much worse the people are when they get through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted July 28, 2013 Moderators Share Posted July 28, 2013 Quote: Well let me say this, most of the so called counselors out there that have these so much in high regard degrees, don't really have the qualifications either. So many of you seem to think that book smarts is the end all to be all. It isn't, but hey, you go ahead and live in that fantasy world of yours. There is a valid point here that I want to acknowledge: It can be very hard to find a competent counselor! I have experienced this in situations where I was attempting to find such for relatives of mine. With the training and experience that I have, I was only successful about 50% of the time. Issue to keep in mind.: Counseling requires work. It is not simply listening and suggesting a course of action. It will likely require that the counselor give the counselee homework. If the counselee refuses to participate in a meaningful way with those assignments, the counseling will likely not be successful. All to many people want the easy way. That way may be medications. It may be validation of their desired course of action. Neither of these make for effective counseling. Although medications may be useful. In the end, the bottom line is that to be effective, the counselee must be willing to work hard and do the assignments. If not willing to do this, the counseling will either fail or be much less effective. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted July 31, 2013 Moderators Share Posted July 31, 2013 We have been talking about pastors and counseling. The following is an article of mine that was published in January of 1995. You may find it interesting: https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1995/01/pastoral-counseling-with-a-professional-touch Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Naomi Posted July 31, 2013 Administrators Share Posted July 31, 2013 All too often, it is the church that is the cause of pain. I am so very sorry that you feel that way, and that it appears to be a common thread in your experience. The members of any congregation are primarily people who are seeking; some on a different level than others. Some good some not so good. After all the church is a hospital for sinners. The only one that we can put 100% of our faith and trust in is Jesus ... on some level people will always disappointment you. There are times when I disappointment myself. Please excuse me, I realize this is off topic. I felt that it should be addressed. Quote If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted July 31, 2013 Members Share Posted July 31, 2013 We have been talking about pastors and counseling. The following is an article of mine that was published in January of 1995. You may find it interesting: https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1995/01/pastoral-counseling-with-a-professional-touch Excellent article. Unfortunately, I think very few pastors (or other good-hearted, yet unqualified "counselors") will see themselves as needing to refer someone to a MH professional... Quote Pam      Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted July 31, 2013 Members Share Posted July 31, 2013 Excellent article Gregory. Quote phkrause Obstinacy is a barrier to all improvement. - ChL 60 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Quote: The only one that we can put 100% of our faith and trust in is Jesus "Now we pray to God that you do no wrong; not that we ourselves may appear approved, but that you may do what is right, even though we may appear unapproved. For we can do nothing against the truth, but only for the truth. For we rejoice when we ourselves are weak but you are strong; this we also pray for, that you be made complete." 2 Cor 13:7-9 NASB God cares! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 Quote: There are times when I disappointment myself. But we promise we won't talk about that much. God cares! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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