there buster Posted September 14, 2005 Share Posted September 14, 2005 The most striking thing we can learn from Katrina and its aftermath is how easily supposedly rational human beings, even Christians on CA, can become a vengeful mob looking for someone (in this case the Prez) or some group (it could be SDA's next time) to scapegoat, when confronted by the reality of human powerlessness. Scapegoating is a bad habit to get into. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cricket Posted September 14, 2005 Share Posted September 14, 2005 Thank you for posting this, Ed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted September 14, 2005 Share Posted September 14, 2005 So...our Governing officials are without sin? I don't think so! :2cents: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted September 14, 2005 Author Share Posted September 14, 2005 Quote: So...our Governing officials are without sin? I don't think so! That's what they call a "non sequitur," Latin for "it does not follow." After WWI Hitler led the German people into scapegoaing the Jews for all the misfortunes that befell Germany. By your logic, if we condemn the hatred and bigotry of the Nazis toward the Jews, that somehow impllies that the Jews were "witouth sin." Of course, this logic is common these days in the media. For example, "If we intervene in Iraq because of human suffering, then why don't we intervene everywhere." All these share the fallacy of false alternatives. Deploring the actions of a lynch mob says nothing about the guilt or innocence of the one they choose to lynch. It simply points out the lawlessness of the lynch mob. And intervening in one trouble spot does not necessitate intervening everywhere--even if it were possible. The ultimate danger of scapegoating is that it usurps God's fucntion. Adam blamed Eve Eve blamed the Serpent. Both blamed God Well, if someone must be "to blame" for the problems caused by Katrina, eventually it will go back to the One who causes--or allows--natural disasters. Katrina caused terrible destruction. Many human mistakes were made, before, during, and after, but few, perhaps none, with the malevolence of the mob--yes, even as it appears, of the "very elect"-- looking for a scapegoat on whom to vent their anger. When the time comes, SDA's will not be "without sin," either. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birmbear Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 Nicely put, Ed. Very niely put. __Birm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derrell M Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 Quote: Well, if someone must be "to blame" for the problems caused by Katrina, eventually it will go back to the One who causes--or allows--natural disasters. Yes, the laws of nature: Convection, equal & opposite actions / reactions, surface tension, weight and gravity, motion, etc.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 Quote: By your logic, if we condemn the hatred and bigotry of the Nazis toward the Jews, that somehow implies that the Jews were "without sin." No...that's your twisted logic. Our government in many respects is too busy with business as usual. The whole premise of capitalism is built on self-seeking. Yes, the poor are doing the same except they don't make the rules...the fat cats in Washington do.... Quote: For example, "If we intervene in Iraq because of human suffering, then why don't we intervene everywhere." Saddam had a home address....Our nation needed to blacken someone's eye....Why not the other bully on the street? When it comes down to it, the future remnant will be the scapegoat because their selflessness will get in the way of the greedy, self-seeking capitalists. We will lose our rights over $$$$.... In other words when the gospel is fully restored & preached (and BTW the gospel puts the glory of men in the dust) the fruit of that will be anti-coveting...the foundation of capitalism. That's what will get the Christians in deep do-do.... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted September 16, 2005 Author Share Posted September 16, 2005 You really need to be responsible for your words, Robert. I pointed out that the willingness of people in distress to scapegoat others is a lesson from Katrina. You countered with the straw man about whether officials were blameless. No one claimed that they were without fault to begin with, so it was your irrelevant addition to the argument. I simply applied the logic you suggested to other cases. If it's O.K. to scapegoat government officials because they're not "without sin," then it should be O.K. to do that in any case. If you don't like the results of your logic, don't make such careless arguments. Not wanting to embarrass you further, I won't commnet on your grasp of either economics or interpretation of last day events. By the way, it would be advisable to avoid emotionally-laden adjectives like "twisted." Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted September 17, 2005 Moderators Share Posted September 17, 2005 Quote: Ed Dickerson said: The most striking thing we can learn from Katrina and its aftermath is how easily supposedly rational human beings, even Christians on CA, can become a vengeful mob looking for someone ..........to scapegoat, when confronted by the reality of human powerlessness. Are you serious? This is the most striking thing we can learn from Katrina! Can I suggest that we saw how helpless human being are in the face of the full force of nature. Or Perhaps we could see how the poorest in our nation can be the most vulnerable in a crisis. Or Possibly, how the military were able to turn the sitation around so quickly. Just wondering.... Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted September 17, 2005 Author Share Posted September 17, 2005 Quote: Can I suggest that we saw how helpless human being are in the face of the full force of nature. Or Perhaps we could see how the poorest in our nation can be the most vulnerable in a crisis. Or Possibly, how the military were able to turn the sitation around so quickly. I agree with all those statements, but none of them was surprising, nor do I think they tell us much about the end times. But looking for a scapegoat, even among supposed Christians, sounds very much like the type of thing foretold in Revelation, and described in Great Controversy. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophecies Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 "Not wanting to embarrass you further, I won't commnet on your grasp of either economics or interpretation of last day events..." I don't know about anyone else, but this came across as harsh and condescending. Let's keep it christianly, whether we think we're right or not. But, I do agree with the points you made, Ed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted September 17, 2005 Author Share Posted September 17, 2005 Do you take the expressions "twisted logic" and "fat cats" to be harsh or condescending? If you find my comments harsh, don't get involved in a prophecy discussion with Robert, or a dozen others around here. Many are perfectly willing to call a person a tool of the devil, for example. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 Quote: Not wanting to embarrass you further, I won't commnet on your grasp of either economics or interpretation of last day events. Very smug attitude....First of all I do not claim to know the future, but I can say with confidence it will involve the green stuff. As to economics: Capitalism operates according to supply and demand, as well as the drive for greed and profit. But this drive for profit causes capitalists to place people second and profits first. Its all about the money.... My points here is not to rail against the “evils of Capitalism”....All our world systems are directly tied to Lucifer's principles of "self". I like the way Sequeria put it: Using man as his tool, Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 Quote: Ed Dickerson said: Do you take the expressions "twisted logic" and "fat cats" to be harsh or condescending? My remarks to the Washington “fat cats” are honest and accurate. It's about the system although, hopefully, there are a few honest men in Washington. Yes, I called your logic "twisted"....Perhaps my nature ruffled your nature's feathers and you shot back. Well, as my friend says, "I hate my nature and I hate yours too." I'll be more respectful (by the grace of God) and you try doing the same. Like Paul said, "If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 Quote: Adam blamed Eve....Eve blamed the Serpent. Both blamed God And the converted Paul blames "indwelling sin": Romans 7:19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, rather it is sin living in me that does it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted September 17, 2005 Author Share Posted September 17, 2005 Quote: Quote: Not wanting to embarrass you further, I won't commnet on your grasp of either economics or interpretation of last day events. Very smug attitude....First of all I do not claim to know the future, but I can say with confidence it will involve the green stuff. No, not smug, experienced. I've seen your posts about both subjects. Your remark about "the green stuff" confirms your misunderstanding of Revelation, for example. And your comments on capitalism, well . . . C.S. Lewis had a tutor as a young man. When Lewis first arrived at his tutor's home, Lewis remarked that that part of England didn't appear as he expected it to. The tutor began a series of questions which demonstrated that Lewis had no basis for any type of expectation, he was just repeating conventional buzz phrases. When Lewis' answers to questions were thoughtless and poorly reasoned, his tutor informed him that they "did not rise to the level of error." Or, as a mathemetician said describing a student's attempt at proof. "It isn't right. It isn't even wrong." Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 Quote: Your remark about "the green stuff" confirms your misunderstanding of Revelation, for example. And your comments on capitalism, well . . . The love of money is the root of all evil! Everything in our government and society is based on "the almighty dollar." Where have you been? The love of self will be the sole reason for legislating away the believers rights.... In our highly capitalistic, competitive nation there's no room for one's beliefs IF it interferes with the corporate money machine. We are already slowly losing our constitutional rights.... Again, why? The love of money! By the way in heaven we won't be practicing Capitalism.... No, we will be practicing Biblical communism....Read Acts chapters 2/4.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted September 17, 2005 Moderators Share Posted September 17, 2005 Quote: Ed Dickerson said: Quote: But looking for a scapegoat, even among supposed Christians, sounds very much like the type of thing foretold in Revelation, and described in Great Controversy. Pardon me but looking for scapegoats is not very surpising or striking either. It should definately not be surprising for those who support Bush. This is a bit basic but...Katrina was another "birth pain" (Matt 24:8). What do contractions do? They get closer together and have greater intensity as the birth comes closer. What, where when is the next contraction? Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fran Posted September 18, 2005 Share Posted September 18, 2005 Quote: lazarus said: This is a bit basic but...Katrina was another "birth pain" (Matt 24:8). What do contractions do? They get closer together and have greater intensity as the birth comes closer. What, where when is the next contraction? Exactly. Expect it to come. Quote The greatest want of the world is the want of men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true & honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty..., men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.{Ed 57.3} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted September 18, 2005 Author Share Posted September 18, 2005 Quote: The love of money is the root of all evil! Everything in our government and society is based on "the almighty dollar." Where have you been? Oh, just things like exegeting Revelation, helping pass laws, that sort of thing. The basis of our society is "We hold these truths to be slef-evident. . ." Your fixation on money is an aberration. America has always been about ideas. the focus in Rev. 12-14 is on WORSHIP, not money. You really shouldn't confuse your obsessions with Biblical truth. By the way, the notion of Biblical communism is, well, hilarious. No authority took from each to give to others. Peter explicitly told Ananias and Sapphira that they were free to do whatever they wanted with their property. Their sin was not in keeping some of the money, it was in lying to the Holy Spirit. Actually, scripture indicates there will be ownership in heaven. They shall not build and another inhabit, nor shall they plant and another reap. Jesus said he was making a mansion for each individual. No. there will be no capitalism in heaven, not because it's evil, but because there will be no need. Just as there may well be no clothing as we know it. But clothing wasn't evil, it was necessary because of evil. You continually conflate striving to produce with selfishness. They are not identical. God repeatedly promised prosperity to the righteous in the Old Testament. Seeking prosperity is not evil in and of itself. The Bible is a good deal more complex than you apparently realize. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted September 18, 2005 Author Share Posted September 18, 2005 Quote: Pardon me but looking for scapegoats is not very surpising or striking either. I guess we have different expectations of Christians. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted September 18, 2005 Moderators Share Posted September 18, 2005 Quote: Ed Dickerson said: Quote: I guess we have different expectations of Christians. Oh come on ! My guess is that our expectations are similar. I don't think Christians should scapegoat. Don't fall into the trap of making more of it because its your buddy George Bush thats being scapegoated! Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted September 18, 2005 Author Share Posted September 18, 2005 Don't fall into the trap of thinking this is about George Bush. It isn't. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted September 19, 2005 Share Posted September 19, 2005 Quote: Ed Dickerson said: Your fixation on money is an aberration. America has always been about ideas. Ideas on how to make more money.... Quote: the focus in Rev. 12-14 is on WORSHIP, not money. You really shouldn't confuse your obsessions with Biblical truth. I didn't bring up Rev...you did. Worship is not about a day, it's what God/god do we accept -- "The lord of this world" or He Who is the servant of all? Quote: By the way, the notion of Biblical communism is, well, hilarious. Laugh it up.... Quote: No authority took from each to give to others. Never said there was any authority/complusion...but nevetheless they had "all things in common." There's no "self" in that type of love.... Quote: Peter explicitly told Ananias and Sapphira that they were free to do whatever they wanted with their property. Their sin was not in keeping some of the money, it was in lying to the Holy Spirit. The early church had the gospel...the fruit of that was selfless living. Ananias and Sapphira brought "self" back into the picture....That was their sin.... Quote: Actually, scripture indicates there will be ownership in heaven. They shall not build and another inhabit, nor shall they plant and another reap. Jesus said he was making a mansion for each individual. This doesn't deny "common property" in heaven rather it denies death in the heavenly city....When I die on this green earth someone else will take over...they will live where I lived, plant where I planted....You are reading more into that verse then you should. Quote: God repeatedly promised prosperity to the righteous in the Old Testament. Seeking prosperity is not evil in and of itself. Rephrase that....God repeatedly promised prosperity to those who kept the old covenant. Problem is no one kept it....If they would have fully kept the law then Israel as a theocracy would been living selflessly. That's loving your neighbor as you naturally love yourself.... The Rich Young ruler thought He deserved His riches....The fact is he thought His riches entitled him an entrance into the kingdom....Where did he get this idea? Right, the O.T/Old covenant! In other words to a Jew in Christ's days a rich man was a good man....This is the common thought today. In reality a rich man is greedy man....You have to work hard at loving yourself.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted September 19, 2005 Share Posted September 19, 2005 Quote: Robert said: ...to a Jew in Christ's days a rich man was a good man....This is the common thought today. As the [rich] young man turned away, Jesus said to His disciples, "How hardly shall they that have riches enterinto the kingdom of God." These words astonished the disciples. They had been taught to look upon the rich as the favorites of heaven...if the rich were to fail of entering the kingdom, what hope could there be for the rest of men?…. [COL 393] Does God wants us to prosper as His people? No, not according to our western way of thinking as individuals. His ideas of prosperity run counter to our capitalistic ways. A glimpse of heaven was seen for a short time in the early church: Acts 2:44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. [No rich, no poor...everyone prospered] 45 Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need....4:32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. So when you see Christ's commands to, "Sell your possessions and give to the poor"...when you hear, "no one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions"...you are seeing heaven's method of prosperity. Face it...we practice Lucifer's way of prosperity, which brings greed, hatred, jealousy, envy, wars and bloodshed and a host of other sins of the flesh.... Self-seeking destroys peace.... God’s way is laid out in that statement from EGW: “You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth.” [DA 439] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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