What Katrina Tells Us about the End

[there buster]

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In reality a rich man is greedy man

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Ridiculous on its face. Job was greedy? Joseph of Arimathea was greedy? Lydia was greedy? Abraham was greedy?

The Bible record simply will not bend itself to your obsession.

[there buster]

It's really sad, Robert. You have a lot of energy, but you lack basic respect for the Scriptures. You treat them as raw material for your theories, cutting and pasting them to suit whatever point you want to make.

You act as if the author's intent, and the context, are irrelevant. As long as you can arrange the words to suit your point, it doesn't matter what it originally meant.

I never see you pay any attention to context, on the contrary you repeatedly wrench verses out of context to serve whatever argument you're trying to prove.

Each book of the Bible is like beautiful brocade silk. But you treat it like a bag of quilting scraps.

[lazarus]

you are totally right CoAspen! (the contention bit that is).

I just cant help myself. I want to agree with everybody but....aggghhhh

I know you are but what am I

I know you are but what am I

I know you are but what am I

sorry!

[Derrell M]

Robert mentions God's Old Testament theocracy. Is there any biblical statement in which God commandeds his theocracy to live as a commune? Does he ever command his theocracy to desist from the act of capitalistic trade? In the books of Moses he lays out the rules by which his theocracy will live and function. Do those rules include the economic pattern for communism? Does God command anywhere in the Bible that people are to cease from trade for the purpose of gain?

[Robert]

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Ed Dickerson said:

Ridiculous on its face. Job was greedy? Joseph of Arimathea was greedy? Lydia was greedy? Abraham was greedy?

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Of course to you it is ridiculous because it means you are not keeping the commandments (as the remnant will be doing -see Rev 14:12)....It means you need to re-think your position (you need to think outside the box).

Job was a sinner...he, like all of us, has "turned to his own way." Where did I get that quote? Is 53:6

• All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way.

And of course EGW:

• We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner:

  but when the light from Christ [His glory] shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. Then we shall know that our own righteousness is indeed as filthy rags..... [sC 28]

Your ideas go completely counter to heaven's principles of love....Lucifer was the first Capitalist....He invented the concept of self-love....Me, me, me....

[there buster]

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Of course to you it is ridiculous because it means you are not keeping the commandments (as the remnant will be doing -see Rev 14:12)....It means you need to re-think your position (you need to think outside the box).

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People may or may not like my presentation, but I have never presumed to judge another's character or Christian experience, as Robert just did. Moderators who are concerned about civility should pounce on such pronouncements.

No, Robert, you are not God. You have no window to look into my soul. And your position about every rich man being a greedy man is wrong because it is demonstrably false. Job is praised by God for his being upright. Abraham has many faults, as portrayed in the Biblical account, but greed is demonstrably not one of them.

Instead of replying with reason and example, you resort to personal attack--"you are not keeping the commandments."

You talk of "outsided the box?" The notion that greed is the engine of prosperity is soooooo conventional as to be a canard.

Your thinking is "outside the Book," because, as I demonstrated, it contradicts examples in Scripture.

You can quote from your scrap bag all you want to, it won't beoome a coherent tapestry of even simple reason, much less truth.

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Your ideas go completely counter to heaven's principles of love....Lucifer was the first Capitalist....He invented the concept of self-love....Me, me, me....

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No, I'm not disagreeing with heaven. I'm disagreeing with you. I'm not certain you're aware of it, but there is a difference.

[once again, folks, please note: I've never accused anyone who disagreed with me of "disagreeing with heaven"]

[Derrell M]

In the context of what God wants, people's ideas are just ideas. God's commands are very clearly layed out in the Bible. If God intended, as Robert insists, that we live as communists and divest ourselves of all capitalism, the model for communism will surely be revealed in the form a clear biblical command by God. Robert, if you have encountered such a thing PLEASE post it. It will certainly clarify for the rest of us what you are trying to put across.

[Robert]

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Friend said:

Robert, if you have encountered such a thing PLEASE post it. It will certainly clarify for the rest of us what you are trying to put across.

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The problem with our world is "self-love" or "self-seeking"....In that respect no one is keeping the law...no one, Ed included.

If you claim to be "under the law" then follow this:

1] Love is the fulfillment of the law.

2] Love is defined as follows:

Love your neighbor as you love yourself....Or better yet, "Love is not self-seeking." 1 Cor 13:5

Perhaps that is why Paul states, "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Rom 3:23

Hence, if you want to be perfect, then you must live as Christ lived....Did He live for Himself? No....The proof is that Christ had no place to lay His head.

If you are under law then Christ has a command for you:

“If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor” [Matt 19:21] In fact you are to, “Love your neighbor as yourself.” In other words, says Christ, “Do this and you will live.” [Luke 10:28] In a nutshell “You must be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.” [Matt 5:48]

[Robert]

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Ed Dickerson said:

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People may or may not like my presentation, but I have never presumed to judge another's character or Christian experience, as Robert just did. Moderators who are concerned about civility should pounce on such pronouncements.

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My point is that if SDAs [i used you as an Adventist] were the remnant then that would be revealed in selfless living instead of mechanically keeping the letter of the law.

BTW, Ed, the Bible is plain: "There is none righteous, no, not even one." Especially Job....He was self-righteous....

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but greed is demonstrably not one of them.

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Okay...I agree...to harsh a word. But we all are self-seeking in someway....

[Derrell M]

Robert,

We may not agree, but you are obviously VERY passionate about this. It seems to touch a nerve with you in a personal way. It would be interesting to know the story behind that.

[there buster]

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Especially Job....He was self-righteous....

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So you say.

I prefer these sources:

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Of Job, the patriarch of Uz, the testimony of the Searcher of hearts was, "There is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil." Education, p. 155

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1 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil Job 1:1

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You said:

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But we all are self-seeking in someway....

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It's a huge leap from there to Das Kapital.

[Robert]

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Ed Dickerson said:

I prefer these sources:

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Of Job, the patriarch of Uz, the testimony of the Searcher of hearts was, "There is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil." Education, p. 155

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Yes, EGW is right, God said that of Job....The Bible is plain.

[lazarus]

If Katrina does tell us that the End is drawing nearer how would this affect the way we are living our lives? How would this affect the way we are doing church?

[Parade Orange]

when the woes hit the earth and cataclysmic catastrophies affect all our lives on earth that brings the global governments to their knees that brings in religious laws to appease an angry God.

Christ's children will be praising God and sharing the three angels message with others with such urgency. What separates us from the other zealotes will be The Holy Spirits Love for GOD and to them. Will we go communal? Will we share what we have? Will we give our last slice of bread to a horrible 'sinner' cause we really genuinely esteem them higher than ourselves. The Spirit of the Law will be seen in our actions in the last days. We will be refreshed by the latter rain. Love will be our motive. Zeal for His Name.

It seems I am worlds away from that.

and a few here also 8:O)

[Robert]

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that brings in religious laws to appease an angry God.

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Bingo! You've got it....

[Robert]

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You talk of "outsided the box?" The notion that greed is the engine of prosperity is soooooo conventional as to be a canard. Your thinking is "outside the Book," because, as I demonstrated, it contradicts examples in Scripture.

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True prosperity comes by keeping the spirit of God's law: "You shall love your neighbor as you love yourself."

There are not two principles here...as in love yourself and your neighbor.... No, it is one principle:

Love your neighbor as you naturally love yourself. Individually speaking, the only way to become wealthy in this world is if you love yourself.

Jesus Himself proved that if you practice "agape" [as in love is the fulfillment of the law] you would suffer persecution and poverty in this world. In other words a Christian lives in enemy territory. He lives in a world saturated with Lucifer's principle of self. He lives in a world whose god is Satan....

If, in his world, you practice selflessness...then you, like Christ, would be without the goodies. The early church is God's idea how to become wealthy and prosper. Capitalism is man's way...hence by default it is earthly and belongs to Satan's camp....In fact all world systems (socialism, communism, etc.) belongs to "this world"!

So yes, if we truly loved our neighbors instead of self...if everyone were on the same page...we would have paradise...we would have heaven.

Now as to Abraham being rich.... Yes, I suppose he received some goods from His dad. But what about the big stuff...the wealth? Did God give it to him? Let's find out:

• Gen 12:14 When Abram came to Egypt, the Egyptians saw that she was a very beautiful woman. 15 And when Pharaoh’s officials saw her [sarai], they praised her to Pharaoh, and she was taken into his palace.

  16 He treated Abram well [i.e., Pharaoh made Abram rich] for her sake, and Abram acquired sheep and cattle, male and female donkeys, menservants and maidservants, and camels [and silver & gold as we will see later].

  17 But the LORD inflicted serious diseases on Pharaoh and his household because of Abram’s wife Sarai. 18 So Pharaoh summoned Abram. “What have you done to me?” he said. “Why didn’t you tell me she was your wife? 19 Why did you say, ‘She is my sister,’ so that I took her to be my wife? Now then, here is your wife. Take her and go!”

  20 Then Pharaoh gave orders about Abram to his men, and they sent him on his way, with his wife and everything he had.

  13:1 So Abram went up from Egypt to the Negev, with his wife and everything he had, and Lot went with him. 2 [:"red"]Abram had become very wealthy in livestock and in silver and gold.[/]

[Robert]

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Individually speaking, the only way to become wealthy in this world is if you love yourself.

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Face it...we get wealthy individually or as families. The reason: Self-love....And as EGW states the lover of self is a transgressor of God's law. Therefore by the works of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law comes the knowledge of sin [singular]...that is, the knowledge of our self-seeking and self-love. In this respect there is none righteous, no, not even one. As Christ said, "There is only one who is good, that is, God."

Concerning future events, Ellen White has an interesting statement found in Christian Service, page 159:

• The apostle Paul declares that "all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." Why is it, then, that persecution seems in a great degree to slumber? The only reason is, that the church has conformed to the world's standard, and therefore awakens no opposition. [:"red"]The religion which is current in our day is not of the pure and holy character that marked the Christian faith in the days of Christ and His apostles.[/]…. Let there be a revival of faith and power of the early church, and the spirit of persecution will be revived, and the fires of persecution will be rekindled….

Why? Because God’s remnant will be reflecting loving one’s neighbor instead of loving self….They will, as in the early Church, have all things in common. There will be no self…no capitalism…no greed or self-seeking. The results? Persecution from a capitalistic government!

[Robert]

Something interesting:

• Satan's rebellion [the creation of "self"] was to be a lesson to the universe through all coming ages--a perpetual testimony to the nature of sin and its terrible results. The working out of Satan's rule, its effects upon both men and angels, would show what must be the fruit of setting aside the divine authority [God's selfless love]. It would testify that with the existence of God's government is bound up the well-being of all the creatures He has made.

[there buster]

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There will be no self…no capitalism…no greed or self-seeking. The results? Persecution from a capitalistic government!

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Sure. And 2+2 = 22. It's really too bad you can't differntiate between a personal vice, an econmic system, and a form of government.

There might be some validity to your points, but we'll never know, because their logic is so muddled.

[Robert]

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Ed Dickerson said:

There might be some validity to your points, but we'll never know, because their [you mean my] logic is so muddled.

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I like what Pastor Sequeira said (and this is slightly paraphrased)...if I went up into the mountains of NC to escape all the sin and trouble in the world I would be taking my number one enemy with me: Myself!

I have my own nature...God is revealing it to me because my heart [my feelings, perceptions, etc] are deceitful above all things and I [i.e., my mind] can't figure my nature out....

So yes, I might "be off" in my ranting, maybe ...maybe not? But I believe that I'm being led of the Lord in revealing some of these issues....Who knows?

Anyway I am one of those guys who questions everything….

Rob

[Neil D]

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Anyway I am one of those guys who questions everything….

Rob

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I think I can say with tongue in cheek, we gathered that, Rob....

The question that I am going to ask is when is that trust gonna come down out of the heavens [assuming you only trust in God] and bring it to practical purposes...and use it between your relationships with people?

I don't mean to embarrass you or anything like that, but we can talk all we want about God and us and Sin and such....but untill we start applying it and sharing our sucesses with what we have learned, how can we ever say that we truely trust God???

Ok, I am done with MY ranting...Please be assured, I am not attempting to embarrass you but I know of no other way to phrase it without losing some meaning...Forgive me for my lack of journalistic abilitys and my over enthusiastic curiousity.

[Robert]

When will the world see some of this selflessness? Don't know....I know this, until I realized what sin really is [self-seeking] I couldn't fully accept Christ as my righteousness. Now that I have I must say that Christian living is hard work. The flesh doesn't like being told no....

[Paul Beach]

[Deleted - sorry Ma'am, but we're trying to keep it as civil as we can. We gotta call 'em as we see 'em.]

[Neil D]

It is of interest to me that my post has been edited without my permission...Luckily, it was not changed, but edited with the bold print. My appologies if anyone is offended by this but let me go on to the record...It tain't me that doing it.

To whom ever is redoing my posts , please stop...It is not nice to do so without my permission.

[there buster]

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Anyway I am one of those guys who questions everything….

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Except your own assumptions.