What Katrina Tells Us about the End

[Derrell M]

Robert, every day of the year I repent and abhore myself "in dust and ashes." I know that I am a vile person. I know that despite everything I may do, whether I adhere to every precept of the 635 Mosaic laws, give to the poor, love the Lord my God with all my heart, love my neighbor as myself, I am human... therefore vile. I was born vile, and I will die vile. The only hope that I have is that God will look on me through the same lense through which he he looked on Job and through the blood of Jesus' sacrifice, and that despite my humanity he will see something perfect, otherwise I am doomed to eternal oblivion.

(Not that the above has anything to do with the discussion, I was just thinking about the verses we have been quoting and they hit me hard. This is very heavy stuff.)

[Amelia]

Im with you Friend. I will do the best that I can in this world and face our Lords judgement at the end. I will tell you right now that I am not worthy. I only pray that My Father finds some iota in me worth saving.

[Robert]

Quote:

---

Friend said:

Robert, there is absolutely nothing in Job 1:8 or its context that even suggests that God might be quoting Job or saying that this is how Job feels about himself.

---

No, but if you analyze the whole of the book of Job you should come to this conclusion.

Quote:

---

Are you suggesting that God is not telling the truth to Satan? Humans lie and misrepresent. God does not.

---

As our advocate, God can defend us Himself or we can defend ourselves. Since Job was doing a fine job defending "his own righteousness" perhaps God merely passed on that self-defense to Satan. As always you must look to the context!

Take for example a statement by Jesus in Luke chapter 10:

Verse 25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

Now notice Jesus’ reply: 26 “What is written in the Law?”

Anyway, after "the expert in the law" answers, Jesus replies: verse 28 You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

If I am to take at face value what Jesus stated without looking at the whole of the context, then I must assume that in order to obtain "eternal life" that I must fulfill the law. In other words "obey and live"! If that's the case Jesus is presenting salvation by law.

Quote:

---

Job called himself vile, but God didn't. God specifically called Job perfect. As I see it, you seem to be giving Job's word more credibility than God's.

---

Paul called his righteousness "dung", but I don't see God disagreeing with Paul's statement. [see Phil 3:8] In fact after Paul's conversion and in the present continuous tense Paul called himself "the chief of sinners" in comparison with Christ's righteousness.

You see human beings are great about comparing themselves to other human beings....But our humanity is not the standard! Jesus Christ is the standard and when I look at His selfless love, as portrayed in the NT, I must with Paul admit that I fall short of God's agape love as expressed in the spirit of the law.

That was Job's problem....As far as his outward acts were concerned...as far as comparing himself against others, he had abstained from evil. But when face to face with God, Job saw for himself "the glory of God" and he changed his view of himself from “blameless” to “vile”…..

The same happened to Daniel:

He who beholds Christ in His self-denial [to the point of homelessness], His lowliness of heart, will be constrained to say, as did Daniel, when he beheld One like the sons of men, "My comeliness [glory] was turned in me into corruption." Daniel 10:8.

The independence and self-supremacy in which we glory are seen in their true vileness as tokens of servitude to Satan. Human nature is ever struggling for expression, ready for contest; but he who learns of Christ is emptied of self, of pride, of love of supremacy, and there is silence in the soul. [MB 15]

The Pharisee's boastful, self-righteous prayer [i.e., "I thank God I am not like other men"] showed that his heart was closed against the influence of the Holy Spirit. Because of his distance from God, he had no sense of his own defilement, [:"red"]in contrast with the perfection of the divine holiness.[:"black"] He felt no need, and he received nothing. [sC 30]

Unlike the Pharisee, Job didn't turn his back on God. Job learned a valuable lesson and God fully restored His blessings and protection.

The lesson we are to learn is never brag on our righteousness. We can either accept Christ's rightousness made effective by Christ's doing and dying, or we can add our own righteousness. If the later we might find ourselves in Job's predictiment!?!

[Robert]

Quote:

---

I only pray that My Father finds some iota in me worth saving.

---

God loves us even though there's nothing in us that can merit eternal life. We are complete in the Beloved!

Always and forever remember that God loves YOU more than Himself!!!

• 8 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

  8 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. 19 We love, because He first loved us.

[there buster]

Quote:

---

D] A fourth man, Elihu, asks Job, ”Do you think this is right? Do you say, My righteousness is more than God’s?”

E] Then God steps in: “Who is this who darkens counsel by words (as in stating "I am blameless") without knowledge?

F] Blameless Job repents: ”Then Job answered the Lord and said: Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer You? I lay my hand over my mouth.”“I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know....Therefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.”

G] God's blessings return and Job regains his wealth.

Okay....Think! God calls Job blameless, right? But we find out that Job was only blameless in his own eyes and not in God's! Job's self-righteousness is exposed.

---

Just to start with... telling people to "think" indicates you believe you are and they aren't. Not nice.

Now let's examine your steps.

Elihu, not Job claims (without warrant) that Job is claiming to be more righteous than God. Job does not make such a claim.

So when God reproves that "dark counsel," He must necessarily be speaking about Elihu, not Job.

Job repents. But of what? Does he repent of that which he never claimed? That's ridiculous. Does he repent of what God declared him to be? That's blasphemous.

You have Job repenting for what Elihu said about him. That's bizarre.

Where is Job "blamed" for anything? Where does God say, "You did this wrong?"

When Job encounters God at the end of the book, Job is confronted with his 'finitude,' that is, he sees his limitations in comparison with God's infinite purity. Job is not "vile" because of specific actions he has taken--no such are ever specified. Job is vile because he is animated dust, born into a sinful world.

Quote:

---

Therefore the only conclusion I can make is what I already stated, namely that God is speaking for Job.

---

Then I am free to conclude that in the other cases I mentioned. If you can take a simple declarative "God said. . ." and turn it into "God said, but he really meant something else . . ." then I can do the same.

Is God a man that he should lie? Your interpretation makes God deceptive, representing Job's false opinion (as you say) as God's own.

Your rather byzantine interpretation of Job turns a profound book into a morality play. It ignores the heavenly contest between Christ and Satan.

You reduce the magnificent questions such as 1 “Can you pull in the leviathan£ with a fishhook or tie down his tongue with a rope? questions which deal with finitude and infinity, with the majesty of God versus the limitations of man, into a legalistic taunt. In fact, if it's just about self-righteousness, then most of what God says to Job is irrelevant.

You also turn the book on its head, making Job's counselors correct, and Job wrong. Yet God says Job has spoken truly and they have not.

Your interpretation

1)Makes God a liar.

2)Contradicts specific portions of the text. For example validating Job's counselor.

3)Fails to account for other parts of the text. For example, all the questions about God's creative power and activity. That has nothing to do with Job's self-righteousness, and everything to do with his finitude, or mortal limitations.

Oh, yes, and leave your manipulative references to the Spirit out of this, okay?

[Robert]

Quote:

---

Elihu, not Job claims (without warrant) that Job is claiming to be more righteous than God. Job does not make such a claim....So when God reproves that "dark counsel," He must necessarily be speaking about Elihu, not Job.

---

Job 35:2 Then Elihu continued and said, "Do you [Job] say, My righteousness is more than God’s?"

Elihu's last words to Job are, "He [God] does not regard any who are wise in their own conceit." [Job 37:24]

Then enters God:

38:1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said,

2 “[:"red"]Who[:"black"] is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?

3 “Now gird up your loins like a man, And I will ask you [Job], and you instruct Me!

You claim God is speaking of Elihu and his "dark counsel". Okay, let's go with that assumption. When God finishes with Job how does Job respond?

Job 40:3 Then Job answered the LORD, and said, 4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth. 5 Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.

And concerning "dark counsel"...did that come from Elihu? Let's see:

Job 42:1 Then Job answered the Lord, and said:

[:"red"]Who[:"black"] is this that hides counsel without knowledge? [:"red"]Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand[:"black"], things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. [verse 3]

Then Job repents:

• 5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. 6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

Where did Job learn his concepts of God and righteousness? What does the Bible say?

7 And it came about after the Lord had spoken these words to Job, that the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends, because you have not spoken of Me what is right as My servant Job has.

Did God cause Job to suffer physically for his sin? No. We need to remember that the arguments of Job’s friends are based oh human reasoning, not biblical truth. That is why God rebukes them in the end. They were misrepresenting His character. But the important element in this story is Job’s reaction to all this. He doesn’t reject their reasoning regarding punishment for sin, but instead he defends his righteousness. That is why Job is so puzzled. Like his friends, he, too, believes that the wicked will suffer and the righteous prospers in this life. Yet he is suffering in spite of being righteous!

If you read on you will not find one account of any rebuke from God towards Elihu. God only rebukes Job and his three friends.

Rob

[Robert]

Job 38:1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said, 2 “Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?

Didn't God know it was Job? Yes....Then why did He ask? Ah, Job didn't know until God rebukes him. After that Job admits to being the one that darkens counsel

Job 42:1 Then Job answered the Lord, and said:...Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?

3 Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.

So then I still maintain that God’s statement found in Job 1:8 is not His view of Job, but rather Job’s view of Himself. Anyone who wishes to vindicate himself before the Almighty is left to Satan’s wrath. Why? Such a person doesn’t need God because he is righteous in his own eyes. From such a person God will have to retreat and when He does Satan comes into destroy….

[aka]

... this portion of Elihu and Job may be, I agree. Who ever is referee, please merciful be.

However.... I do like this theme because i recently did a personal study and will post now what I learned...

With respects to his elders, Elihu the younger, waited until all the others had said their piece. I thought that was very modest and humble of him. Then he spoke but became very angry with Job for justifying himself rather than God. He seemed to be ticked off that Job spent so much time on his own justification than upon the justification of God rights in the dealings of His providence with him.

Apparently Elihu didn’t like how Job was more careful of his own character’s reputation than he was of the honour of God. Pehaps he thought Job wasn’t doing enough talking about God’s glory in His justice.

The three other men had had long-winded arguments with the goal of tearing apart Job’s insistence to vindicate himself. What seemed to goad the three friends was Job’s attitude of religious perfectionism in himself. In their (proven later to be false) understanding or judging of Job, they thought him to be a conservative, self-conceited, self-willed, obstinate, person not open to humbly admitting own guilt for his affliction. Instead he was stiffly insisting on his own innocence and not seeing any association of happening to him being related to some sin or sins he commited.

I don’t think the issue disputed by the guys toward Job was something to do with his salvation in justification before God. I don’t remember them charging him with being a self-righteous man (correct me on this if need be). He sure wasn’t self-righteous in the sight of God as the Lord himself later declared that Job a righteous and perfect man on all earth.

Now in comes Elihu. A young man swift to hear and slow to speak. In one chapter he gave me the impression he believed himself to be under the inspiration of God in giving now his words to Job. As if he was a called minister of God’s Word to Job. However, he gave anger to his words by showing exasperation with the confident self-vindication of Job. He was also angry that the friends had the gall to insist that Job was a wicked person enough to warrant all that which happened bad to him. Elihu critized the hollowness of their arguments which proved to him they were condemning Job without proof and made them unconvincing. He attacked them for lacking wisdom in how God was dealing with Job. He addressed Job by saying in so many words that God often afflicts the body for good to the soul. That God meant him no hurt by afflicting him, but intended for what happened his spiritual benefit. God did him no wrong by afflicting him, was his argument.

What I instinctly liked about Elihu as I first got to reading his words was his apparent wish for the best for Job. And his seemingly good character for being fair and ready to side with Job and not be a judgmental opponent. It seemed to be very important to Elihu to vindicate God’s righteousness.

But the most unexpected came. God whacked the first three friends with rebuke for saying what they did in wrong speaking to Job. There were some right thoughts expressed by them, admittedly. However, what was awry was their notion that God deals with men in this life according to their outward behaviour, thus afflicting even good men with hurts because of their behavior if they get off the straight and narrow. They were teaching a false doctrine that in the now men were always punished who did wickedly. Because of this false assumption they came to their false conclusion.Thus their so-called comforting Job to get him to go back on the right track by confessing his sin was false counsel.

Elihu seems to have gotten off without a rebuke from God because he just acted as intermediary or moderator for God’s character.I might have missed something and that Elihu character might not be so squeaky clean as I imagine. I just didn't see anything negative about him.

Turmeric

[there buster]

You continue to make leaps

Everyone knows Job repented. If you would read carefully you would find no need to make huge red capitals for others.

Just so you don't miss it, WE KNOW JOB REPENTED.

The problem is you make an assumption about that repentence. You assume he repented for what Elihu said.

And yes, Elihu asked "Did you say. . ." but we have no confirmation that Job said it. It could simply be Elihu's interpretation of Job's remarks. We do not find those words in Job's mouth. When you claim Job said them, you're simply guessing.

Quote:

---

That is why Job is so puzzled. Like his friends, he, too, believes that the wicked will suffer and the righteous prospers in this life. Yet he is suffering in spite of being righteous!

---

And that's the whole point of the book of Job! It's NOT about Job's "sin," period. It's about what we call "The Great Controversy."

Your interpretation trivializes the whole book of Job, turning it into a simplistic object lesson for kindergarten.

Job would become unnecessary if your interpretation is correct. We have plenty of other examples of self-righteousness. But we have nowhere else in the canon where we are shown explicitly that what happens here is related to a controversy in heaven.

The trials of Job AREN"T ABOUT JOB AT ALL. They're about the Great Controversy.

And my interpretation doesn't have us attributing Job's opinion to God's declaration. You still haven't faced the problem of God lying.

After all, God doesn't say to Satan, "Job thinks he is an upright man." God declares Job upright.

Your interpretation demands that we make God a deceiver, declaring as truth what he knows to be false, and that we violate the basic rules of language. Whatever else is true, that type of interpretation simply cannot be correct.

You also confuse "sin," a wrong act, with "Sin," the condition of not being in total harmony with God. "Sin" produces "sins." Job's counselors accuse him of "sins." He denies those specific charges. When confronted by the holiness of God, Job confesses "Sin." He sees the difference between the "sins" he truthfully denied, and the "Sin" which is his natural condition.

Job is a difficult book. That's good because it forces us to wrestle with the truth, and deepen our understanding. Your interpretation makes it an easy book, unworthy of much real effort.

[Robert]

Quote:

---

And my interpretation doesn't have us attributing Job's opinion to God's declaration. You still haven't faced the problem of God lying.

---

Job couldn't be present in heaven. So God, who was Job's advocate, simply repeated Job's sentiments to Satan. In the great controversy only those clothed in Christ's righteousness can be defended by God....That includes His protection….

Now tell me, is God lying here?

• Is 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

[Edited - getting personal and somewhat insulting]

Rob

[there buster]

[Edited - this was all in response to the comment edited out above (sorry to have you lose your writing, Ed, but I thought the forum was healthier without the whole exchange)]

Your call, though I thought it might have proven instructive.

[Bravus]

OK, guys, I'm editing that little exchange.

Not compulsory, by the way, but this thread has gone a long way away from Katrina and the end... Care to move to the Bible and Theology forum and start a new Job thread? Or has it almost come to a grinding halt anyway...? Up to the both of you.

[Robert]

[Edited - getting personal and somewhat insulting]

Well, I go with what Paul said:

"If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men...."

It's a good thing Martin Luther died when he did before the invention of the www....Otherwise he would have been edited out....

Oh well, that's the way it goes....

Yes, you can move it if you wish. I'll be respectful if others play well. Disagree by all means, but stating that I make God a liar and all that stuff gets my nature ruffled. It's easy to let go when insults fly....I don't see how Christ did it!

Anyway go ahead and move it Bravus.

Thanks,

Rob

[Robert]

Quote:

---

Then he [Elihu] spoke but became very angry with Job for justifying himself rather than God.

---

Bingo! Does Job sound like a man justified by faith or a man proud of all his good deeds and hence legalistic?

Before Paul met Jesus on the road to Damascus he thought very highly of his righteousness. Let's look at this:

• Phil 3:4 ...Although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more:

  Now he lists the things he use to brag of:

  5 circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

What does EGW say concerning the law?

"It [the law] is so brief that we can easily commit every precept to memory...."

That's the letter of the law!

"and yet so far-reaching as to express the whole will of God, and to take cognizance not only of the outward actions, but of the thoughts and intents, the desires and emotions, of the heart." [sD 39]

Well, that's the spirit of the law!

Saul thought he was keeping the law because "outwardly" he didn't commit sin....But the law also demands perfect thoughts...perfect motive...perfect, unselfish desires.

How did Saul do here?

• Paul says that as "touching the righteousness which is in the law"--as far as outward acts were concerned--he was "blameless" (Philippians 3:6); but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner. Judged by the letter of the law as men apply it to the outward life, he had abstained from sin; but when he looked into the depths of its holy precepts, and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation and confessed his guilt. He says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Romans 7:9. When he saw the spiritual nature of the law, sin appeared in its true hideousness, and his self-esteem [pride] was gone.

The same can be said for Job after having met God face to face, as did Paul on the road to Damascus! The similarities are overwhelming.

Rob

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

---

Ed Dickerson said:

The trials of Job AREN"T ABOUT JOB AT ALL.

---

Ed, I see a certain measure of truth coming from both you and Robert. But I also see in the comment made above, a serious lapse of giving God credit where credit is due Him.

I believe it comes from the erroneous conclusion by many Christians who do not believe God to be sovereign, that somehow there are evil powers (satan) who sneak up on the children of God while God is not looking, allowing them to commit unjust acts against just sons of God.

Perhaps it may be good to remember that there is only one attribute that makes fallen humans justified before the Father, that is the cleansing blood of Jesus applied to the

confessed, repentant sinner. That would be the reason why the Father could see Job as blameless

And a reason why Job can be seen as falling short of the glory of God, can be seen in one of the earlier chapters of the book of Job.

[:"red"] "For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me." [/] Job 3:25 KJV

[:"red"] "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love" [/] 1 John 4:18

KJV

If Job were truly without flaw in love, he would have had no fear. Secondly he was striving to see his works as sufficient to assure his salvation, an impossibility.

[:"red"] "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission." [/] Hebrews 9:22 KJV

Job needed to be brought to the conclusion that there were not enough righteous deeds he could perform that would allow him in the kingdom, that as with all others, his security for the future with his Lord lay in confession, repentance, and forgiveness for where he was falling short.

[:"red"] "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags" [/] Isaiah 64:6

KJV

Thus what may appear as unjust circumstances happening to us, who as sinners responsible for the blood of Jesus are worthy of death, are disciplines having everything to do with us, as well as all those who also share in those experiences.

Keep the faith!

[Robert]

What was it that Job had not understood? He had not understood that his self-righteousness was mere filthy rags in God' sight. But when he came face to face with his self-righteous condition, he abhorred himself and repented....

Flesh & blood has not revealed this to you, LifeHiscost...but your Father in heaven!

• We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, [:"red"]we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive[:"red"], the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life.[:"black"] Then we shall know that our own righteousness is indeed as filthy rags, and that the blood of Christ alone can cleanse us from the defilement of sin, and renew our hearts in His own likeness. [sC 28]

Rob

[Gregory Matthews]

Life, it looks to me like you have read your own stuff into what Ed has said.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

---

Robert said:

What was it that Job had not understood? He had not understood that his self-righteousness was mere filthy rags in God' sight. But when he came face to face with his self-righteous condition, he abhorred himself and repented....

Flesh & blood has not revealed this to you, LifeHiscost...but your Father in heaven!

Rob

---

Thanks, Rob, for that acknowledgement. Even in that I have nothing I can boast about.

[:"red"] "Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other. For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?" [/] 1 Corinthians 4:6-8 NKJV

[:"red"] "But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." [/] Romans 2:29 KJV

[:"red"] "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." [/] Galatians 3:29 KJV

Blessings!

[there buster]

Quote:

---

Perhaps it may be good to remember that there is only one attribute that makes fallen humans justified before the Father

---

That's really interesting, but quite irrelevant to the point in the book of Job.

The question in the book is not whether Job is saved, but whether Job is being punished for wrongdoing. The narrative is clear:Job is not being punished for wrongdoing. Ironically, calamities are falling on Job because God declared him upright! No action or failing of Job brings these calamities about. Rather, it is the Great Controversy, the dispute over ownership of the Earth between God and Satan. We don't have to infer this, or guess about it. That's what the heavenly court scenes are about. To miss this is to completely misunderstand the book of Job.

Elihu is not repreoved because he says essentially the same things God later says. Elihu does not say Job is being punished for wrongdoing, what Elihu says is that no human can debate with God about God's actions, that God does what He does for reasons we do not understand--which is also borne out by the narrative of the book.

All this speculation about Job's supposed character defects only repeats the folly of his rebuked counselors.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

---

Ed Dickerson said:

Quote:

---

Perhaps it may be good to remember that there is only one attribute that makes fallen humans justified before the Father

---

That's really interesting, but quite irrelevant to the point in the book of Job.

---

Interesting that you see in the book of Job only one point to be gained.

Since you believe, as I understand it, that satan and his slaves of darkness have free access to God's disciples who are trying to serve the God of all authority, this helps establish in some men's minds, satan's charge that Job could find no security in the God he trusted, unless he failed in nothing.

[:"red"] "And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, " All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth." [/] Matthew 28:18 NASB

[:"red"] And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.[/] Matthew 28:18 KJV

[Robert]

Quote:

---

All this speculation about Job's supposed character defects only repeats the folly of his rebuked counselors.

---

Job's three buddies thought along the same lines: "God must be punishing you because you cherish some secret sin." Does God work that way? Does God do evil? No...but neither Job nor his buddies realized this.

Job was a sinner, but he didn't realize it. He was blinded by his own goodness. That was Job's problem! He was so busy looking at all his good deeds that he failed to see the marked difference between his righteousness and God's selfless righteousness. That's a very serious character defect in my estimation. Why? Because self-righteousness is the one sin that will forever close the doors of heaven to those who practice it. It denys one's need of Jesus Christ. In fact the majority of Jews in Christ's time shared this blindness...the difference being Job learned and they did not.

Why would our loving Father allow Satan to mistreat Job so badly and go through all those terrible crises without any purpose other than to prove to Satan that He was right?

[Robert]

Let's look at this some what limited conversation between Satan and God again:

Job 1:8 And the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?”

9 Then Satan answered the LORD, “Does Job fear God for nought? 10 Hast thou not put a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? Thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.

11 But put forth thy hand now, and touch all that he has, and he will curse thee to thy face.” 12 And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only upon himself do not put forth your hand.”

Let’s take a moment now and look at the Old Covenant blessing for obedience:

• Deuteronomy 28:1 “NOW it shall be, if you will diligently obey the LORD your God, being careful to do all His commandments which I command you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth. 2 “And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, if you will obey the LORD your God:

  3 “Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be in the country.

Was Job blessed? Quite the opposite!

• 4 “Blessed shall be the …offspring of your beasts, the increase of your herd and the young of your flock.

Were Job’s flocks blessed? Let's see: Job 1:16 While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, “The fire of God fell from the sky and burned up the sheep and the servants, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”

• 7 “The LORD will cause your enemies who rise up against you to be defeated before you; they shall come out against you one way and shall flee before you seven ways.

Were Job’s enemies kept at bay?

Job 1:14 “The oxen were plowing and the donkeys were grazing nearby, 15 and the Sabeans attacked and carried them off. They put the servants to the sword, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”

The answer is no, Job was not blessed for his so called obedience. Quite the opposite! Why?

[there buster]

Quote:

---

Job's three buddies thought along the same lines: "God must be punishing you because you cherish some secret sin."

---

Which is indistinguishable from your position. You believe Job had a sin which was a secret from him.

Quote:

---

Job was a sinner, but he didn't realize it. He was blinded by his own goodness. That was Job's problem!

---

This may or may not be. But the book of Job does not support that idea.

Job was not being harrassed because of any evil he had done. Job was being harassed because he was an example of trusting in God. There's no other coherent way to read the text.

[there buster]

Quote:

---

Interesting that you see in the book of Job only one point to be gained.

---

Just because I said "the point of the Book" does not mean that I believe there's ONLY ONE point. But every literary work has a main point. And you can't understand the minor points unless you understand the main point.

If you think Exodus is about "exiting" Egypt, then you have to wonder what 3/4 of the book is dealing with. Exodus has a main theme, or main point, and if you don't get that, then you don't understand the supporting themes, either.

Generally, this sort of thing is covered in freshman Bible classes. I assumed you understood that much.

You seem more interested in scoring points than understanding the Book.

[there buster]

Your excursion into Deuteronomy is interesting, but beside the point, for three reasons I can think of off the top of my head.

1) The book of Job pre-dates Deuteronomy. So that information had not yet been given to anyone.

2) Job is not an Israelite. He is not a member of the covenant community to whom those promises were given. So it has no bearing on Job's case.

3) The law, as we find it in Exodus, had not yet been enunciated, so none of the provisions mentioned in Deuteronomy had any referents.

This is part of what I mean of making the Bible a bag of quilting scraps. You just grab any piece that suits you and sew it next to any other. In effect, this makes you the master, and the Bible your servant, to do with as you wish.

We cannot learn from the Bible unless we listen to it, and we are not listening when we wrench pieces from here and there, ignoring their context.