What Katrina Tells Us about the End

[Robert]

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1) The book of Job

pre-dates

Deuteronomy. So that information had not yet been given to anyone.

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True, but IF one of God's characteristics is to bless those who are obedient (as the Old Covenant suggests) then why was Job left to the wiles of Satan?

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The law, as we find it in Exodus, had not yet been enunciated, so none of the provisions mentioned in Deuteronomy had any referents.

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True, but nevertheless Job had a knowledge of righteousness before He met God. See chapter 31 of Job....BTW also look at Job 42:8

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This is part of what I mean of making the Bible a bag of quilting scraps. You just grab any piece that suits you and sew it next to any other. In effect, this makes you the master, and the Bible your servant, to do with as you wish.

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No, I was merely making a point. There's no link between Job and the Old Covenant demands found in the Torah. As you said the book of Job pre-dated the book of the law.

What then is my point? The book of Job proves that mankind is by nature legalistic. He thinks that he deserves heaven because of the good things he does. That's true even in Christian circles.

[Robert]

Job 30:1 “I made a covenant with my eyes not to look lustfully at a girl.

2 For what is man’s lot from God above, his heritage from the Almighty on high?

3 Is it not ruin for the wicked, disaster for those who do wrong? [Yet Job is suffering like the wicked!]

4 Does he [God] not see my ways [works?] and count my every step?

5 “If I have walked in falsehood or my foot has hurried after deceit— 6 let God weigh me in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless....

Job 31:1 So these three men stopped answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. 2 But Elihu son of Barakel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, became very angry with Job [:"red"]for justifying himself rather than God.[:"black"] 3 He was also angry with the three friends, because they had found no way to refute Job, and yet had condemned him.

There's the issue. Job believed in God, but Job had a deep rooted problem: He justified himself before God!

Job 33:8 “But you have said in my hearing—I heard the very words—9 ‘I am pure and without sin; I am clean and free from guilt. 10 Yet God has found fault with me; he considers me his enemy. 11 He fastens my feet in shackles; he keeps close watch on all my paths.’ 12 “But I tell you, in this you are not right, for God is greater than man.

Job 40:6 Then the Lord answered Job out of the storm, and said, 7 “Now gird up your loins like a man; I will ask you, and you instruct Me. 8 “Will you really annul My judgment? Will you condemn Me that you may be justified?

In all this does Job sound like a man justified by faith or a man justified before His maker based on the good things he has accomplished?

[there buster]

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What then is my point? The book of Job proves that mankind is by nature legalistic. He thinks that he deserves heaven because of the good things he does. That's true even in Christian circles.

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Once again you miss the point. Job never claims that he "deserves heaven." The issue is "why are these calamities falling upon me?" And your reason is the same as Job's false comforters--the very reasoning God rebukes--that Job has brough them upon himself through sin.

That simply is contrary to what the book itself tells us. Job is singled out for suffering because of a dispute between God and Satan.

I cannot understand why any SDA would resist this, since it is one of the few direct references in the Bible to the idea Ellen White called "the Great Controversy."

[there buster]

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5 “If I have walked in falsehood or my foot has hurried after deceit— 6 let God weigh me in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless....

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The problem with all this is that your theory makes God a liar. Because God himself declares Job perfect and upright.

You claim that God is saying what He knows to be false, that He is merely stating Job's false opinion.

That gives us something like this:

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Of Job, the patriarch of Uz, the testimony of the Searcher of hearts was, "There is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil." Education, p. 155

But according to Robert, "the Searcher of hearts" was "only reporting Job's view of himself."

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So God says Job was "perfect and upright," Ellen White quotes the text approvingly, but they both got it wrong, and Robert corrected them. WOW! You're asking a lot when you ask us to beleive you instead.

Aside from the rather severe problem that the text itself nowhere indicates that this is the case, your assertion turns the book of Job into nonsense.

If God IS lying, and repeating Job's false belief, there's no reason for the dispute with Satan in the heavenly court. Satan claims to be in control of earth, and God, by pointing out Job's -- as you would claim-- "self-righteousness," basically agrees with Satan. "Yup, even old Job's under your spell so badly he thinks he's perfect." There is no dispute, and there is then no reason for the rest of the book.

Job becomes just another prudential tale--of which there are many outside the Bible--indicating that bad things happen to bad people.

Job is one of the few places that Scripture tackles the tough question of "Why do bad things happen to good people," but your theory would take that from us.

A friend of mine had a baby --22 months old-- who developed a rare form of aggressive cancer. Church members were at pains to tell these people that their 22 month old had cancer because this family ate meat, in other words, "Your kid got it because he deserved it." What rubbish! I was able to comfort them to some degree by calling upon the book of Job.

I pointed out that bad things happen simply because there is sin in the world. That, like Job, sometimes bad things happen for reasons that we don't understand.

That's the profound message of Job. Your theory, nowhere supported in the text, would turn it into a cheap morality play. Your theory tells that family, "Yup, your boy got cancer because of some secret sin you're harboring."

After all, to quote you, "there has to be some reason God removed himself" and let these bad things happen.

[Robert]

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Ed Dickerson said:

The problem with all this is that your theory makes God a liar. Because God himself declares Job perfect and upright.

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God makes many statements in the Bible. I'll quote a few:

Ex 4:11 Then the Lord said to him [Moses], “Who has made man’s mouth? Who makes him dumb, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? [:"red"]Is it not I, the Lord?[/]

Is 45:6 I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. [KJV]

Exodus 4:21 And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharoah which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.”

These are statements from God, Ed, so we must take Him at His word or else we make Him a liar...right? Or should we look at the greater picture to try and understand our misunderstood Lord?

Yes, God is speaking for Job! Why? Because Job was not there in the heavenly courts to justify himself. God merely passed on Job's vindication of himself to Satan. I'll use an EGW quote to get my point across:

• While Jesus is pleading for the subjects of His grace, Satan accuses them before God as transgressors....Now he [satan] points to the record of their lives, to the defects of character, the unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer, to all the sins that he has tempted them to commit, and because of these he claims them as his subjects.

  Jesus does not excuse their sins, but shows their penitence and faith, and, claiming for them forgiveness, He lifts His wounded hands before the Father and the holy angels, saying: I know them by name....And to the accuser of His people He declares: "The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?" Zechariah 3:2. Christ will clothe His faithful ones with [:"red"]His own righteousness[:"black"]....[GC 484]

You see Job had nothing to be penitent about...he was a good man - he was a holy man, but in his own eyes. Therefore because of the great controversy God had to let Job represent Himself. He had to partially abandon Job because of his self-righteous attitude. Thankfully Job repented!

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Your theory tells that family, "Yup, your boy got cancer because of some secret sin you're harboring." After all, to quote you, "there has to be some reason God removed himself" and let these bad things happen.

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[:"black"]Using your own "Thus saith the Lord" [or else we make Him a liar type logic] you should have told these poor parents that God created the cancer in their boy. How so? “I the LORD do all these things”!

[Robert]

The reason men and women will be lost is not because they are sinners, but because they refuse the righteousness of God "in Jesus Christ"! We are by nature proud and legalistic....This was Job's problem:

Job 31:2 Elihu son of Barakel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, became very angry with Job for justifying himself rather than God.

Job 40:8 God speaking: “Will you really annul My judgment [My removing My protection]? Will you condemn Me [for all the evils] so that you may be justified?

Job really had problems even to the point of annulling God’s judgements brought on by Job’s self-justifying spirit.

But the good new is Job repents….No longer was Job justifying himself before God, but rather God was now justifying Job in Himself.

Repentance from self-righteousness is terribly painful because we have to swallow our pride - our spiritual pride. The things we have looked to as evidences of our goodness, we have to see as monuments to self......

Job had a lesson to learn and he brought this calamity upon himself. When his lesson was complete and Job was fully converted, God was able to be Job's righteousness once again.

• "The soul who sees [Job at first didn't see] Jesus by faith, repudiates his own righteousness. He sees himself as incomplete [not blameless], his repentance insufficient, his strongest faith but feebleness, his most costly sacrifice as meager, and he sinks in humility at the foot of the cross. But a voice speaks to him from the oracles of God's Word. In amazement he hears the message, "Ye are complete in Him." Now all is at rest in his soul. No longer must he strive to find some worthiness in himself, some meritorious deed by which to gain the favor of God. [F&W 107]

[Robert]

Apparently others have had the Job syndrome:

-BC- 1888

-TI- The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials

-CN- 102

-CT- To U. Smith

-PR- 01

-PG- 794

• A lack of faith in the message [i.e., the message of righteousness by faith given to the SDA church in 1888] God has given me to bear of the order represented is decided unbelief to all intents and purposes. There is not one bit of savor in such a faith, and the faith of Elder Butler is of the same order, valueless, having no savor, I count nothing upon you or him to harmonize with me in my work given me of God….So effectually does this [:"red"]delusion[:"black"] take possession of heart and mind that the sharp arrows of the Lord fail to penetrate the armor of [:"red"]self righteousness[:"black"] in which they are encased. The spell is so strong that they will listen to the truth, the most earnest and powerful, even to the very portraying of the delusions which are upon them without any thought of self-examination to see if it means them. This is the class our Saviour found most difficult to arouse. The most authoritative teachings were heard and listened to as if they heard not. Thus it is with many, many in this generation.”

[there buster]

Robert, all your last three posts are simply irrelevant, because

1) They ignore context

God's statements in these other contexts are not lies, but neither are they simply repeating what someone else thinks. In each case, they are stating truths about God in terms that the audience can understand, in the context of their times. NOT ONE OF THEM contains lies about some human.

When God claims to "make one blind," etc. He is simply expressing a philosophical truth: Everything that happens, happens by God's permission.

Now, God is not going to make fine distinctions to the Israelites, whose intellectual and spiritual capacity, after centuries of slavery in Egypt, is only about the level of a five year old. All He would do is confuse them. (Increasingly, I'm beginning to understand His wisdom in such matters).

So he tells them what they need to know. "All these things happen because I let them happen, and I let them happen for reasons you do not understand." Which message, AMAZINGLY, happens to match exactly the message to Job.

Job is never rebuked by God for any particular sin he has committed. Job is told, basically, "You're out of your league when you question my decisions."

I'm not sure if you're just wedded to your own interpretation so strongly you are throwing whatever you can find, of if you really don't understand the difference context makes. Increasingly, I'm leaning toward the latter.

2) They beg the question

IF Job's problem was "self-righteousness," then all your texts about self-righteousness might have some relevance. So far, they're just "begging the question," that is, you assume that Job's self righteous, and then quote other texts about self-righteousness. Which gets us nowhere.

I'm not certain how you manage to ignore the other half of the sentence when you quote the text about Job justifying himself rather than God. Job is suffering, but not for some evil he has done. Job is not rebuked for "justifying himself"--which you read as "self-righteousness"-- but rather, Job is rebuked for "justifying himself RATHER than God." Job feels God is unfair, that righteousness has no reward, because he suffers NOT for any sin of his, but because of other matters beyond his knowledge.

God DOES NOT reprove Job for wrogndoing, nor does he ever tell Job that he has suffered for "self-righteousness" or any other specific sin. God reproves Job for thinking he knows better than God, for "justifying himself RATHER than God."

This same problem shows up in another text where you ignore half the verse:

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Job 40:8 God speaking: “Will you really annul My judgment [My removing My protection]? Will you condemn Me [for all the evils] so that you may be justified?

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The problem again is not that Job's suffering arises from his wrongdoing, but because Job is complaining that God is unjust.

Job is CORRECT when he claims that his afflictions DO NOT result because of some wrong action on his part--the narrative clearly states that Satan is allowed to inflict Job. BUT job is INCORRECT when he claims God is unjust

And what I told my friends--for this is not hypothetical--was that because God allowed Adam free will, and Adam sinned, that brought sin into our lives. And sin has all sorts of consquences, including ugly cancers in little boys who have done no wrong. Cancer happens because we live in a world filled with sin. AND YES, GOD allows that, when He allows free will.

When God made those other statements, He was talking about himself, not repeating some fallible human judgment about Him or about some other merely human being. God is explaining, in language appropriate to his audience, "I, God, am in control. Nothing happens unless I let it." Which is very much what he said to Job, as well.

You've never really addressed the purpose of the book of Job, if your interpretation is correct. There's no real purpose for the book, if you're correct. Satan claims to be in control of the Earth, God counters that ????? oooops! Guess you're right, Satan, even old Job is under your control, he just doesn't know it.

Why then, does Satan bother afflicting Job? Why should the reader care? After all, people Satan tortures his own all the time. What's the big deal?

A whole book of the Bible, NOT about an Israelite, having no place in the long chronology of God's chosen people, completely outside the rest of the narrative of Scripture, just to talk about garden variety self-righteousness and Satan afflicting sinners? What a waste.

[Robert]

This isn't complicated at all IF one opens his eyes! One more time:

• “I [Job] hold fast my righteousness and will not let it go." [Job 27:6 NASB]

  “If I [Job] have walked in falsehood or my foot has hurried after deceit— let God weigh me in honest scales and he will know that [:"red"]I am blameless.[:"black"] [Job 31:5,6 NIV]

  But the anger of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram burned; against Job his anger burned, [:"red"]because he justified himself before God.[:"black"] [Job 32:2 NASB]

What was that Job clearly stated?

"I hold fast my righteousness and will not let it go."

Does this sound like a man justified by faith or a braggart?

Once God appears on the scene He asks Job a very simple question:

• Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said, “Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?" [Job 38:1,2 NASB]

And Job answers:

• “You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?’ Surely [:"red"]I[:"black"] spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know.” [Job 42:3 NIV]

After justifying himself before God what does Job end up saying? I thought you would never ask! Here:

• ”Wherefore I [Job] abhor myself, [:"red"]and repent[:"black"] in dust and ashes.“ [Job 42:6 KJV]

Repent of what? Well, what was Job’s claim? Right…I am a righteous dude – I’ve done this and this and that….But when Job met True Righteousness he abhorred his boastful words and repented of his true condition:

• “Behold, I [Job] am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.” [Job 40:4 KJV]

[Robert]

"Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ’s character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ....Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself cannot understand the meaning of redemption." [Ellen White, R&H, 9-25-1900]

[Robert]

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Robert said:

“If I [Job] have walked in falsehood or my foot has hurried after deceit—

let God

weigh me in honest scales

and he will know that [:"red"]I am blameless.[:"black"]

[Job 31:5,6 NIV] [Job 40:4 KJV]

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• There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins. Ecc 7:20

  If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins... 1 John 1:8,9

  There is no one righteous, not even one Romans 3:10

  There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. Rom 3:22-24

  There is none good but one, that is, God Matt 19:17

  There is no one who does good, not even one Rom 3:12

Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, “What? Are we blind too?” Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin [i.e., the sin of unbelief/self-righteousness]; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains. John 9:40,41

Case closed,

Rob

[LifeHiscost]

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Ed Dickerson said:

Generally, this sort of thing is covered in freshman Bible classes. I assumed you understood that much.

You seem more interested in scoring points than understanding the Book.

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Would you call that a "put-down?

I'm of the opinion that not all of what higher education teaches, is about wisdom as the Word identifies it.

[:"red"] "He rescues the poor from the cutting words of the strong. He saves them from the clutches of the powerful. And so at last the poor have hope" [/]

Job 5:15,16

[LifeHiscost]

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Ed Dickerson said:

Elihu does not say Job is being punished for wrongdoing, what Elihu says is that no human can debate with God about God's actions

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[:"red"] "Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu... , against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God." [/] Job 32:2 KJV

[:"red"] "....God is the one who justifies" [/] Romans 8:33 NASB

[:"red"] "He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous, Both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD." [/] Proverbs 17:15 NASB

Keep looking up!

[Robert]

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LifeHiscost said:

Would you call that a "put-down?

I'm of the opinion that not all of what higher education teaches, is about wisdom as the Word identifies it.

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"Many a star that we have admired for its brilliance will then go out in darkness. Those who have assumed the ornaments of the sanctuary, but are not clothed with Christ's righteousness, will then appear in the shame of their own nakedness." [EGW]

[there buster]

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Robert said:

This isn't complicated at all IF one opens his eyes! One more time:

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I don't know, LHC, would you call that a putdown?

Or how about this one:

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"Many a star that we have admired for its brilliance will then go out in darkness. Those who have assumed the ornaments of the sanctuary, but are not clothed with Christ's righteousness, will then appear in the shame of their own nakedness." [EGW]

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Or is that just a random quotation?

As far as the freshman Bible remark, that's a fact. Robert is still ignoring little things llke "context," which is usually covered pretty early. As far as pontificating about "worldly wisdom," it's really much more worldly wisdom to think we can cut-and-paste the Bible in ways we wouldn't even do with a personal letter.

[there buster]

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There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins. Ecc 7:20

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins... 1 John 1:8,9

There is no one righteous, not even one Romans 3:10

There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. Rom 3:22-24

There is none good but one, that is, God Matt 19:17

There is no one who does good, not even one Rom 3:12

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Everybody knows these basic texts, Robert. The problem with your interpretation is very simple: The book of Job just doesn't say what you want it to. You can quote every OTHER book in the Bible, but it won't change they syntax of Job.

It's really sad, too. You obviously have enthusisasm for what you do. But until you can at least respect the text, you aren't a Bible student at all.

As Walter Kaiser says in "Toward an Exegetical Theology," real Bible study is like golf: You have to play the ball as it lies--you have to take the text as it actually reads, not as you would like it to read.

You don't do that. In golfing terms, you move the ball to a more favorable lie. In exegetical terms, you change the text to fit your theory. It's cheating.

There's no point in continuing since you insist that words don't mean what they mean. Once you go through that looking-glass with Alice, the Bible means whatever you want it to. You seem to be having fun with it, but it's a fantasy.

You cant continue repeating your texts over and over. Your quarrel is not with me, but with the text, with the Bible itself.

[Robert]

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Ed Dickerson said:

There's no point in continuing since you insist that words don't mean what they mean.

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Here's what you said in reference to Ex 4:11

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When God claims to "make one blind," etc. He is simply expressing a philosophical truth: Everything that happens, happens by God's permission.

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While I agree with your conclusion you won't find this within the context of Ex 4:11. Where did you get this idea? From the Bible at large.

The same is true with the story of Job. While it is true that God said, "Have you considered My servant Job..." you can't ignore the whole of the book. That is where you make your mistake...no, heresy.

Why heresy? You make God claim for Job that which the whole of the Bible rejects...namely that there's anyone truly righteous or blameless as God is righteous and blameless.

You have closed your eyes for now.

Maybe another time,

Robert

[Robert]

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Ed Dickerson said:

You cant continue repeating your texts over and over. Your quarrel is not with me, but with the text, with the Bible itself.

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Sounds very pious....You take one verse and exclaim "God said" and if you disagree you make God a liar, while I take the whole of book and say...no, God was merely stating Job's view of Himself. And you talk of doing things exegetically?

Here’s your one liner taken out of context from the whole of the book of Job:

• And the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?” [Job 1:8]

What I previously quoted on another post was only a small part of Job’s bragging! Shall I list more of his claims to righteousness?

• Job 31:1 “I HAVE made a covenant with my eyes; How then could I gaze at a virgin?

  2 “And what is the portion of God from above Or the heritage of the Almighty from on high?

  3 “Is it not calamity to the unjust, And disaster to those who work iniquity?

  4 “Does He not see my ways [my works], And number all my steps?

  5 “If I have walked with falsehood, And my foot has hastened after deceit,

  6 let God weigh me in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless—

  7 “If my step has turned from the way, Or my heart followed my eyes, Or if any spot has stuck to my hands,

  8 Let me sow and another eat, And let my crops be uprooted.

  9 “If my heart has been enticed by a woman, Or I have lurked at my neighbor’s doorway,

  10 May my wife grind for another, And let others kneel down over her.

  11 “For that would be a lustful crime; Moreover, it would be an iniquity punishable by judges.

  12 “For it would be fire that consumes to Abaddon, And would uproot all my increase.

  13 “If I have despised the claim of my male or female slaves

  When they filed a complaint against me,

  14 What then could I do when God arises, And when He calls me to account, what will I answer Him?

  15 “Did not He who made me in the womb make him, And the same one fashion us in the womb?

  16 “If I have kept the poor from their desire, Or have caused the eyes of the widow to fail,

  17 Or have eaten my morsel alone, And the orphan has not shared it

  18 (But from my youth he grew up with me as with a father,

  And from infancy I guided her),

  19 If I have seen anyone perish for lack of clothing, Or that the needy had no covering,

  20 If his loins have not thanked me, And if he has not been warmed with the fleece of my sheep,

  21 If I have lifted up my hand against the orphan, Because I saw I had support in the gate,

  22 Let my shoulder fall from the socket, And my arm be broken off at the elbow.

  23 “For calamity from God is a terror to me, And because of His majesty I can do nothing.

  24 “If I have put my confidence in gold, And called fine gold my trust,

  25 If I have gloated because my wealth was great, And because my hand had secured so much;

  26 If I have looked at the sun when it shone, Or the moon going in splendor,

  27 And my heart became secretly enticed, And my hand threw a kiss from my mouth,

  28 That too would have been an iniquity calling for judgment, For I would have denied God above.

  29 “Have I rejoiced at the extinction of my enemy, Or exulted when evil befell him?

  30 “No, I have not allowed my mouth to sin By asking for his life in a curse.

  31 “Have the men of my tent not said, ‘Who can find one who has not been satisfied with his meat’?

  32 “The alien has not lodged outside, For I have opened my doors to the traveler.

  33 “Have I covered my transgressions like Adam, By hiding my iniquity in my bosom,

  34 Because I feared the great multitude, And the contempt of families terrified me, And kept silent and did not go out of doors?

  35 “Oh that I had one to hear me! Behold, here is my signature; Let the Almighty answer me! And the indictment which my adversary has written,

  36 Surely I would carry it on my shoulder; I would bind it to myself like a crown.

  37 “I would declare to Him the number of my steps; Like a prince I would approach Him.

  38 “If my land cries out against me, And its furrows weep together;

  39 If I have eaten its fruit without money, Or have caused its owners to lose their lives,

  40 Let briars grow instead of wheat, And stinkweed instead of barley.”The words of Job are ended.

  32:1 THEN these three men ceased answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.

  2 But the anger of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram burned; against Job his anger burned, [:"red"]because he justified himself before God.[:"black"]

Now Ed, why would a so-called "blameless" man in the end "repent" and call himself "vile"? You've not answered that question, but that's okay for YOU CAN"T!!!

Rob

[Robert]

Ed,

BTW, as I mentioned to another poster early on, the first time I came across this idea that Job's problem was due to self-righteousness was in the book "Laodicea" by Jack Sequeira. I just happen to agree with him after studying the issue out for myself.

I suggest that you buy Jack's book and read it....We can all learn....Believe me I have, by the grace of God, done a 180 from the way I use to think (inside the box).

I'm hard-headed too,

Rob

To order Laodicea

[there buster]

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You take one verse and exclaim "God said" and if you disagree you make God a liar, while I take the whole of book and say...no, God was merely stating Job's view of Himself. And you talk of doing things exegetically?

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Yes. Sorry it's beyond you. If you can't understand it, at least stop twisting it to fit your purposes. I don't "claim" anything about God or Job. I simply quote the book.

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Job 1:8 Then

the LORD said

to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him;

he is blameless and upright,

a man who fears God and shuns evil."

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According to his faith, so was it unto Job. "When He hath tried me," he said, "I shall come forth as gold." Job 23:10. So it came to pass. By his patient endurance

he vindicated his own character,

and thus the character of Him whose representative he was. And "the Lord turned the captivity of Job: . . . also the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before. . . . So the Lord blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning." Job 42:10-12.Edcuation, p. 156

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vindicated Job's character.

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From this scripture [Job 1]we may learn much regarding God's dealings with his people. And when calamity comes, unless the Lord indicates plainly that this calamity is sent as a punishment of those who are departing from the word of his counsel; unless he reveals that it has come as a retribution for the sins of the workers, let every man refrain from criticism. Let us be careful not to reproach any one.

"The enemy is often permitted to try God's people in just such a way as Job was tried. And when Job's friends came to him and began to remind him of his sins, and to urge that he was suffering because of divine displeasure, they were doing a work that was wholly uncalled for.

R&H Aug 16, 1906

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As is your fanciful conclusion.

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God had given a lesson designed to prevent this. The history of Job had shown that suffering is inflicted by Satan, and is overruled by God for purposes of mercy. But

Israel did not understand the lesson. The same error for which God had reproved the friends of Job was repeated by the Jews in their rejection of Christ.

DA 471

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And now repeated by you.

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Of Job, the patriarch of Uz, the testimony of the Searcher of hearts was, "There is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil."

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Oops! I guess Ellen White made the same claim I do. Zounds! She quotes the scripture, and never enlightens us that God wasn't expressing His own opinion. We had to wait for you!

Let's see: on the one hand Robert

on the other hand, the Bible, Ellen White, and direct logic.

sorry, you lose!

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Now Ed, why would a so-called "blameless" man in the end "repent" and call himself "vile"? You've not answered that question, but that's okay for YOU CAN"T!!!

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IF you actually read my posts, I have indeed answered that question. God never declares Job guilty of anything. But when a finite human being encounters the living God, one automatcally is humbeled and repents. Nowhere in the book of Job is Job declared guilty of anything.

As I posted earlier, your narrow legalistic view confuses "sins," particular wrong acts, with "Sin," the condition of being separated from God. As Paul would say, there's no point in giving you meat, you can't handle milk!

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When Job heard the voice of the Lord out of the whirlwind, he exclaimed: "I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes." Job 42:6. It was when Isaiah saw the glory of the Lord, and heard the cherubim crying, "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts," that he cried out, "Woe is me! for I am undone." Isaiah 6:3, 5. Paul, after he was caught up into the third heaven and heard things which it was not possible for a man to utter, speaks of himself as "less than the least of all saints." 2 Corinthians 12:2-4, margin; Ephesians 3:8. It was the beloved John, who leaned on Jesus' breast and beheld His glory, that fell as one dead before the feet of the angel. Revelation 1:17. DA 471

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Did all these repent for self-rightesousness? It's absurd, and unsupported by the Scriptural record of these episodes.

Contrary to your statement, I've answered all your questions. If you don't understand it, then at least have the integrity not to misstate what I say.

Don't agree, fine. Please stop the deception.

[LifeHiscost]

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Robert said:

You make God claim for Job that which the whole of the Bible rejects...namely that there's anyone truly righteous or blameless as God is righteous and blameless.

Robert

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Robert,

Not that my opinion is important, but to give my testimony as a member of the Seventh Day Adventist Church and a part of the body of Christ (not necessarily in answer to this post of yours), I'm in full agreement (unless you know why not) with your conclusion about him being a man, the same as all other men, falling short of the glory of God

which is consistent with the theme of the rest of the Scriptures. This particular truth was revealed to me long before Jack S., as a result of accepting God as Sovereign,

and entertaining what I consider to be consistent with our Father's total just conduct toward anyone considered sinless, unless the particular disciple suffering the unjust consequences gave full approval to the Father (like Jesus or John the Baptist). Job obviously was not knowledgable enough to freely give his assent to the trials he suffered at satans hands.

I maintain that God saw Job blameless and perfectly righteous for the same reason He sees other of His children blameless and righteous, because they individually trust in the continuous cleansing of the blood of Jesus, repenting as they are convicted of their sins by the Holy Spirit, in which Job gave personal testimony about himself. I'm not sure you've registered that as a belief of yours or not.

On the other hand, I also believe, as Ed has indicated elsewhere, that Job was not being punished by God for any sinful condition he had, any more than any other man had or has. I've found it true that each and every one of our Father's children, to a greater or lessor degree, seem to believe on one point or another, we are just a little bit more righteous than others who make the claim of serving God.

There is one question I'd like to ask you, somewhat on a personal level. Feel free to ignore it if you feel more comfortable. You know of course that the ones who reach the kingdom of heaven, as referred to in the Revelation, are those who overcame by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony. Some of the quotes you have listed about Job defending his own conduct, were him giving God the credit for what God gave him. Now if all our personal testimony of victories over sin, is excluded as merely self-righteous blather, how will we be able to witness to what God has worked out in and through us, except to those who are personal witness to our righteous behavior. It would seem to me to narrow our means to reach others with the gospel of Christ to a very small number , and make the preaching of the Word as it was worked out in our lives without redeeming value at all, making all they preach only theory, nothing more?

Another question. Since Jesus example was to stay with the chosen people until they actually took His life, would you believe that to be a good example for His disciples to follow?

Thanks for your reply.

Keep the faith!

[LifeHiscost]

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Ed Dickerson said:

it's really much more worldly wisdom to think we can cut-and-paste the Bible in ways we wouldn't even do with a personal letter.

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Under the tutelege of the Holy Spirit, we each develop our own methods to give witness to how the Word the gospel) has been relevant in our lives. It seems audacious to me, to believe ourselves the arbiters of others who witness different than we. If we wish to exclude ourselves from others conclusions, our Lord gives freedom to each person to accept or reject. He, in the end, will be the final Arbiter as to whether we were correct in our acceptance or rejection of another's testimony.

[:"red"] "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:15 [/]

[:"red"] "God sent not His Son to condemn the World" [/] John 3:17

Keep the faith!

[LifeHiscost]

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Robert said:

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LifeHiscost said:

Would you call that a "put-down?

I'm of the opinion that not all of what higher education teaches, is about wisdom as the Word identifies it.

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"Many a star that we have admired for its brilliance will then go out in darkness. Those who have assumed the ornaments of the sanctuary, but are not clothed with Christ's righteousness, will then appear in the shame of their own nakedness." [EGW]

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Believing this to be wisdom as expressed by our Father through one of His servants, if it is a put-down it comes from our Lord. It is now up to me to determine, through seeking the Holy Spirit, whether it refers to me. If it does then I need to repent. If it doesn't, then I can go on to more fruitful comments. Either way I know God does not condemn me but only wishes my safety in the home he has prepared for me.

[:"red"] "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.John 14:1-3 KJV

Keep looking up!

[Robert]

Are you making EGW the final authority instead of the Bible? Sure quote her, but you must ultimately prove it to me from the Bible. This you have failed to do!

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on the one hand Robert on the other hand, the Bible, Ellen White, and direct logic. sorry, you lose!

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I guess I'll have to combat you using Ellen:

We [EGW includes herself] have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed….

Men rest satisfied with the light already received from God's word, and discourage any further investigation of the Scriptures. They become conservative, and seek to avoid discussion.

[Robert]

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Ed Dickerson said:

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When Job heard the voice of the Lord out of the whirlwind, he exclaimed: "

I abhor myself

, and repent in dust and ashes." Job 42:6. It was when Isaiah saw the glory of the Lord, and heard the cherubim crying, "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts," that he cried out, "Woe is me! for

I am undone

." Isaiah 6:3, 5. Paul, after he was caught up into the third heaven and heard things which it was not possible for a man to utter, speaks of himself as "

less than the least of all saints

."

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Did all these repent for self-righteousness? It's absurd, and unsupported by the Scriptural record of these episodes.

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As far as I know Daniel didn't have a self-righteous problem. He knew he wasn't measuring up before he saw just a bit of "the glory of God" [His goodness]!

But I do find where both Job and Paul (Saul) bragged of their righteousness and I find where they also repented.

That's why Paul states:

"For all have sinned [past tense] and fall short of the glory of God [His agape love - see Exodus 33:18,19] Rom 3:23

And since I find EGW in agreement, I will quote her:

-BC- DA

-TI- The Desire of Ages

-CN- 25

-CT- The Call by the Sea

-PR- 03

-PG- 246

It was the same presence of divine holiness that had caused the prophet Daniel to fall as one dead before the angel of God. He said, "My comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength." So when Isaiah beheld the glory (i.e., His Holiness, goodness) of the Lord, he exclaimed, "Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts." Dan. 10:8; Isa. 6:5. [:"red"]Humanity, with its weakness and sin [:"black"], was brought in contrast with the perfection of divinity, and he felt altogether deficient and unholy."

Give it up Ed, you are wrong on this one.

Rob