Is coffee drinking really a sin?

[whbae]

If you believe that your body is a temple of God, there are many things we do would be sin as we defile our body.

Even secular scientific report states that coffee is not good to your body.  Also it reports that tea has caffein in lesser amount and the chocolate has it too but it does not function as the caffein in coffee.  Drinking alcohol is sin?  I wonder about this.  So many cases in Old Testament days Israelite drank alcoholic drink.  They raised grapes.  Do you think the grapes were raised for a sole purpose of having grape juice?  Personally, I never touch alcoholic drink, though.

[Dr. Shane]

As I have said repeatedly, the key word in that passage has but one single meaning in 1st Century Greek. And the key word (phrase) is not "good wine". The key word is used by the steward to describe the known and understood effect of what he was referring to as the good wine. That word is variously translated as "drunk" or "drunk enough".

 

Understood.  Students of history will know of the extensive debate on passages like these during the years that lead up to the 18th Ammendment and prohibition.  There was no concensus among Biblical scholars then as there is not now.  Great minds, knowing both the ancient languages and cultures, have disagreed and continue to do so.  On this site http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/wine_in_the_bible/4.html Dr. Bacchiocchi discusses the topic at length,

 

 

Some view this meaning of the Greek verb methusko "to intoxicate" as an incontestable proof of the alcoholic nature of the wine produced by Christ. For example, in a scholarly review of John Ellis’ book, The Wine Question in the Light of the New Dispensation, the reviewers say: "There is another incontestable proof [of the alcoholic nature of the wine produced by Christ] contained in the passage itself; the word methusko in Greek signifies ‘to make drunk, to intoxicate’; in the passive ‘to be drunk’; now this term is never used for designating the effects from any other than intoxicating drinks."23

 

This reasoning misinterprets and misapplies the comment of the master of the banquet, and overlooks the broader usage of the verb. The comment in question was not made in reference to that particular party, but to the general practice among those who hold feasts: "Every man serves the good wine first; and when men have drunk freely, then the poor wine . . ." (John 2:10, RSV). This remark, as many commentators recognize, forms parts of the stock in trade of a hired banquet master, rather than an actual description of the state of intoxication at a particular party.24

 

Another important consideration is the fact that the Greek verb methusko can mean "to drink freely" without any implication of intoxication. In his article on this verb in the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Herbert Preisker observes that "methuo and methuskomai are mostly used literally in the NT for ‘to be drunk’ and ‘to get drunk.’ Methuskomai is used with no ethical or religious judgment in John 2:10 in connection with the rule that the poorer wine is served only when the guests have drunk well."25

 

The Parkhurst Greek lexicon cites the Septuagint usage of the methuo word group in Old Testament passages as illustrative of the meaning "to drink freely": "Methuo . . . denotes in general to drink wine or strong drink more freely than usual, and that whether to drunkenness or not. Pass[ively] to drink freely and to cheerfulness, though not to drunkenness . . . John 2:10. And in this sense the verb is plainly used by the LXX (i.e. Septuagint), Gen 43:34; Cant 5:1; and also, I think, in Gen 9:21."26 The latter meaning is respected by the Revised Standard Version which renders it more accurately "when men have drunk freely."

 

The verb methusko in John 2:10 is used in the sense of satiation. It refers simply to the large quantity of wine generally consumed at a feast, without any reference to intoxicating effects. Those who wish to insist that the wine used at the feast was alcoholic and that Jesus also provided alcoholic wine, though of a better quality, are driven to the conclusion that Jesus provided a large additional quantity of intoxicating wine so that the wedding party could continue its reckless indulgence. Such a conclusion destroys the moral integrity of Christ’s character.

 

This certainly is a disputable issue from a Biblical perspective.  It is much less disputable from a denominational perspective.  The Adventist church's teaching on strict abstainance is beyond question.  The Adventist church clearly teaches its members to live a life of total abstainance from alcohol.  As I previously mentioned, that belief has a Biblical basis since we believe in the anti-typical Day of Atonement and believe our mission today mirrors that of John th Baptist.

 

The Adventist teaching on coffee is much less clear.  Coffee certainly is not forbidden like alcohol is.  I think it is discouraged more than meat-eating but that may even be changing today.  I wonder how many vegetarians in the church drink coffee.

[Tom Wetmore]

But among Greek scholars who have no agenda, that one word has no dispute as to its meaning.

[Tom Wetmore]

I am not disputing or trying to erode the Adventist point of view on this. But if we are to have credibility we must be certain of the basis for our position and understand that it is ours and not unequivocally supported by Scripture. If we insist on stretching and bending every contrary piece of evidence to our POV we will only erode our credibility, especially among those serious Bible students who can and wil look at the reliable and objective resources. For us to use that sort of loose iesogetical approach only opens the door to questioning and doubting the veracity of everything else we have to say.

[Dr. Shane]

The view embraced by Adventists is not exclusively held by them.  There are several other denominations that hold the same view.  Students of history that are familiar with the temperance movement that lead up to prohibition will also know how this was much debated then.  It is realevant to the subject that the Adventist church was born and our doctrines formed during that period of American history.  Politics and religion were much more intertwined during that time then they are today.  Prohibitionists had to not only argue that alcohol was bad for society but that banning it was consistant with the Christian religion.

 

As a recovering alcoholic, this is a topic of special interest to me.  Thus I have discussed it with people of various religious backgrounds and beliefs.  I believe the Adventist church is less guilty of twisting Scripture on this doctrine than are other denominations that promote it.  I do not believe the scholary arguements of Dr. Bacchiocchi and others like him cause Adventists to lose credability as long as they are presented as plausible interpretations and not as absolute.  Being an alcoholic, it is beyond me why anyone would want to drink alcohol and not get drunk.  To me that is like catching a fish and throwing it back in the lake.  I understand some have a drink to get a sense of ease and comfort.  For me, I prefer a hot bubble bath, a back rub or foot massage to provide that sense of ease and comfort.  Or... dare I say... a hot cup of decaf coffee on a cold winter night???

[Gerr]

Sorry about the mix-up, Tom.  I tried to edit my responses 3x to indicate who said what, but it wouldn't do what I wanted to do.  So here's my fourth try.

 

 

Who says coffee drinking destroys or defiles God's temple? Again I ask - who says it's a sin? EGW?

 

Gerry:  God has other laws that govern our being besides the moral law; and these have consequences as well.  If in my mind using a drug for no other reason than to get a high over and over again is bad, (which I do), then per Jame's definition of sin, it is a sin.

 

 

Both SDA churches I attend serve coffee between Sabbath School and Worship.  Plenty of people walk in with Starbuck's.  Nobody has a problem with it.  Maybe it's just us folk in Colorado.  We've legalized both coffee and weed.

 

No one has come to church yet with a joint.

 

Gerry: 

Remember the camel's nose in the tent?  That may very well be next.  If coffee is fine in the church, why not beer?  A joint?

[Sojourner]

It is not uncommon for churches experiencing revival in Australia with people responding to altar calls to give their lives to Jesus or to put their lives right with Jesus for drugs and drug paraphernalia to be left at the altar as people turn away from it and into the new life that Jesus offers them. I would be absolutley overjoyed if the same thing happened at the conclusion of an SDA meeting in my own church! 

[Tom Wetmore]

Thanks, Gerry! That helps sort out who said what... I will remove the first post.

Commenting on the substance of your post.... I think most people would dispute your characterization of the effects of coffee as a "high". And it would seem the slippery slope argument at the end is equally an exaggeration.

[Gail]

Enjoying the discussion! :)

[Gerr]

Thanks, Gerry! That helps sort out who said what... I will remove the first post.

Commenting on the substance of your post.... I think most people would dispute your characterization of the effects of coffee as a "high". And it would seem the slippery slope argument at the end is equally an exaggeration.

Exaggeration?  How did idols get into the church when the 2nd commandment expressly forbids  them?  Did it happen overnight? 

Why do people use heroin, cocaine, meth, or joint,  if not for some kind of a "high"?  One might argue that he/she is using coffee just to wake them up and not to get high.  That's just semantics.  And that goes deeper into one's treatment of the temple of the Holy Spirit.  If one gets enough sleep, there wouldn't be a need for it.  In that case are we not "missing the mark"?  And  straight coffee tastes awful!  How many people liked unadulterated coffee the first time they drank it?  So then, sugar is added to it.  And sugar in excess is positively harmful.  Is it possible that we have become so calloused that we no longer recognize when we are "missing the mark"?

[Tom Wetmore]

The oft quoted and used "temple of the Holy Spirit" proof text for healthful living isn't really talking about what we take into our bodies as what makes us unclean/unfit. Read the context. Paul is talking about fornication. Not eating and drinking. If he was, it would contradict what he says in Romans 14.

[Gregory Matthews]

Gerry said:

 

 That's just semantics. 

 

Semantics are very important in communication.  Semantics facilitate understanding.   Semantics help to keep one from looking uninformed and ignorant.

 

 

[Gerr]

Yet the master of the feast tasted it and recognized it as fermented... Care to explain why EGW contradicts Scripture?

Oh, where in Scripture does it say that the master of the feast "recognized it as fermented?"

[Gerr]

Gerry said:

 

 

 

 

Semantics are very important in communication.  Semantics facilitate understanding.   Semantics help to keep one from looking uninformed and ignorant.

If you drink coffee, Greg, why do you need it?

[Gerr]

The oft quoted and used "temple of the Holy Spirit" proof text for healthful living isn't really talking about what we take into our bodies as what makes us unclean/unfit. Read the context. Paul is talking about fornication. Not eating and drinking. If he was, it would contradict what he says in Romans 14.

Are you saying that if I avoid fornication that I have kept the temple clean?

[Naomi]

I am assuming that when we refer to coffee (or tea or hot chocolate) drinking it is the caffeine  in the beverage that makes it a "sin" 

 

FWIW years ago I suffered from severe migraine headaches.  Any one that deals with migraines can attest to wishing you could put your neck on a chopping block to remove your head!    Finally my Dr found something that, perhaps didn't always completely take away the pain, but made it possible to function with it.  Most of the time it took the pain completely. 

 

One day I was at the drug store getting a refill I was told that  the price had increased, I complained!!!.  The pharmacist said why are you buying the pills?  I began to explain, and he said, "Just get a strong cup of coffee."  I self-righteously explained that , "I Don't drink coffee!" 

 

He smiled and said perhaps you don't need to .... because you certainly get enough caffeine in these pills.  They were caffeine pills!!!  Needless to say, I never had another prescription of "caffeine" pills refilled.  Color me a sinner .....

[JoeMo]

Maybe the things EGW said about coffee and chocolate were wro....?  Nah - tha couldn't be it. 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

just as a point of note, Mrs White never said anything against chocolate.  She did, in fact, give her grandchildren hot cocoa...  

(see the interview with Grace Jacques, EGW's granddaughter:  http://www.andrews.edu/~jmoon/Documents/GSEM_534/Class_outline/9a.pdf )

[JoeMo]

Rudywoofs said:

"Mrs White never said anything against chocolate."

 

Thanks for pointing this out, Pam.

Things get attributed to her that never happened.  It's like trying to find "God helps those who help themselves" or "when God closes a door He opens a window" in scripture.  I wonder how many people think EGW spoke out against chocolate?  I have heard it so many times I took it for granted.

[Gerr]

Perhaps we should define what sin is from the Scriptures.  And here are the ones that come readily to mind.

 

 

ESV 1 Jn 3:4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.

KJV 1 Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

 

ESV　|　1 Jn 5:17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

 

ESV　|　Jas 4:17 So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

 

ESV　|　Ro 14:23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

 

From Baker's Encyclopedia: 

 

Israel’s God sets the ideal, the standard for human behavior, and the most frequent biblical words for sin (Heb. ḥāṭā’; Gk hamartēma) meant originally "to miss the mark, fail in duty" (Rom 3:23). As Lawgiver, God sets limits to man’s freedom; another frequent term (Heb. ‘ābar; Gk parabasis) describes sin as transgression, overstepping those set limits. Similar terms are peṡa‘ (Heb.) (rebellion, transgression); ‘āṡam (Heb.) (trespassing upon God’s kingly prerogative, incurring guilt); paraptōma (Gk) (a false step out of the appointed way, trespass on forbidden ground).

 

Israel’s God sets the ideal, the standard for human behavior, and the most frequent biblical words for sin (Heb. ḥāṭā’; Gk hamartēma) meant originally “to miss the mark, fail in duty” (Rom 3:23). As Lawgiver, God sets limits to man’s freedom; another frequent term (Heb. ‘ābar; Gk parabasis) describes sin as transgression, overstepping those set limits. Similar terms are peṡa‘ (Heb.) (rebellion, transgression); ‘āṡam (Heb.) (trespassing upon God’s kingly prerogative, incurring guilt); paraptōma (Gk) (a false step out of the appointed way, trespass on forbidden ground).

 

Elwell, W. A., & Beitzel, B. J. (1988). In Baker encyclopedia of the Bible (p. 1967). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House.

 

As I see it, anything short of perfection is "missing the mark", a "false step out of the appointed way", and therefore a sin.  When we choose something that may have harmful side-effects when something better is available, is that not "missing the mark"? 

 

These are just my own thoughts about the subject.  I am not trying to be the conscience of anyone else.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sojourner]

This is in this months edition of Mens Muscle Health magazine,

"Coffee for cancer,

If you love your morning pick-me-up, you're going to love this too! Italian researchers have shown how coffee reduces the risk of liver cancer by as much as 40 per cent. The results of the study published in Clinical Gasttroenterology and Hepatology, reaffirm previous findings that coffee does have health benefits. Coffee has also been shown to protect against prostate cancer and Greek coffee may be the key to longevity. According to the Centre for Disease Control and Prevention(CDC), liver cancer is the the third leading cause of death from cancer in the world. Hepatocellular carcinoma (HCC) is the most common form of this cancer and men are approximately three times more likely to develop the disease than women. So drink up! - MMH"

[Gerr]

Drinking coffee is no more a sin than eating bacon or drinking tea. People are not going to eat and drink, or nt, their way into Heaven.

I suppose it was not sin either when a certain woman ate just a certain fruiit.

[Tom Wetmore]

[CoAspen]

Somewhere a person posted "some SDA's spend more time focusing on..............", lets add coffee and other obsessions to that list!!

[JoeMo]

I suppose it was not sin either when a certain woman ate just a certain fruiit.

No; it was a sin when a certain woman ate a certain fruit.  The Bible documents God specifically explicitly prohibited her from eating the fruit from that particular tree.  If you can show me where coffee-drinking is explicitly (or even implicitly) prohibited in scripture, I will quit drinking it.

 

I find it curious that, with all of the medical journals reporting the benefits of moderate use of coffee and tea that people are still so stuck on what EGW had to say about coffee more than 100 years ago.