When bad Christians happen to good people

[Neil D]

This article is gonna cut across a lot of personal bias....This is the other side of the view of the Great Commission. What do you think? Is he right? Wrong? Is he respectful of your religion? Is your religion repectful of his? How are we to approach these people for the Gospel if this type of "witnessing" is wrong? This should provide a lot of discussion....shouldn't it?

When bad Christians happen to good people

August 28, 2013 By John Shore

For years before I (suddenly and out of nowhere) became a Christian, my wife Catherine and I used to study and practice Zen. One morning we were walking toward our car after a night spent sitting zazen at a Zen center with a dozen or so other would-be Buddhas. (Zazen is Zen meditation: you sit; you close your eyes; you try to disconnect from your thoughts; you try like crazy not to sneeze, cough or itch; you endeavor not to panic about the fact that after about a half-hour your whole lower body is so asleep you wouldn’t flinch if your thigh suddenly got harpooned.)

As we were approaching our car, we saw that a guy who had just pinned a flyer to our dashboard was now doing the same to the car parked behind ours. He gave us a friendly wave. “I hope you don’t mind me leaving one of these on your car,” he said cheerily.

I unlocked the passenger side door so that Cat could get in. “No problem” I said. But what he apparently somehow heard me say instead was, “Please come over and talk to us.”

“It’s for a nearby church,” he said, coming over to talk to us. He was maybe thirty, fit, and clean-shaven, sporting an orange baseball cap, a winning smile, and a slight gleam in his eye that was somewhere between a little too friendly and crazy. “It’s called Calvary Chapel. Ever heard of it?”

“I haven’t,” I said. I closed Cat inside the car. Tucked under my arm was my zafu, the round pillow Zenners use to sit upon whilst trying to merge with The Great Nothing/Everything. The guy nodded toward it.

“You folks study Buddhism there in the center?”

“We do, yes. Well, sort of. It’s Zen Buddhism. We like it. Been at it for a pretty long time now.”

“Oh, is that right? Do you find it helps you with your life?”

Whoops. Now entering Nutsville. “Actually, yeah. It’s been a really wonderful thing for both of us.”

“But you must know that it can’t give you what the Lord Jesus Christ can. The only way you can ever find what you’re really seeking is to open up your heart to the fact that Jesus Christ is your personal lord and savior.”

The thing about sitting zazen—especially if you’ve just done it for ten hours straight—is that it leaves you feeling like Lake Placid. So, in a voice so calming it would slip a rampaging werewolf into a coma, I said, “That’s great. I mean, I know that for a lot of people Christianity is perfect. We’ve chosen Zen. I’ve got a friend who’s a Hindu. My wife’s dad is Catholic. Everybody has to find their own way, don’t they?”

“But there’s only one true way, friend. And that way is through Jesus Christ.”

I walked around the front of our car to the driver’s side. “Christianity’s a really sound option, for sure,” I said. He stepped toward me.

“It’s more than just an option. It’s the only way. Anyone who doesn’t repent of their sins and declare the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal savior is lost to the flames of eternal hell.”

I felt a tight ball gathering in my stomach. With one hand on my door handle I smiled over the top of the car. “Well, that doesn’t sound like much fun. I hope that doesn’t happen to me!” Ha, ha, ha. Nothing like a little final destiny humor to lighten the mood when you’re being accosted in the street by a Christian zealot in an orange baseball cap.

“Oh, it will. It happens to everyone who chooses any but the one true way.”

And then I made the mistake I often do in life: I started talking too much. “I understand that Christianity works for you. And I think that’s outstanding. Your life must be so rich because of your faith. But must Christianity be the only way? Can’t there be other good ways for people to know and experience what you call God? Does everyone who chooses any other way but Christianity have to be wrong?”

He smiled and shrugged. “Hey, I don’t make the rules. You can fight against it all you want. But the fact is that Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins. The cost of not accepting him as your savior is the eternal damnation of your soul.”

Through the windshield I saw Cat, quietly gazing straight ahead. I knew she could hear us.

I pulled open my car door. “Well, I guess I’ll just have to hope that you’re mistaken.”

“Oh, I’m not, buddy.” He raised his voice a notch. “But you are. Both you and your wife are condemning yourselves in the eyes of the Lord by engaging in sinful idolatry.”

“All right; I’ll bear that in mind. There aren’t actually any idols in Zen, but I see what you’re saying.” I waved. “Thanks for sharing. Have a good day.”

As I closed my car door the guy moved to the front of our vehicle. He held up his hand like he was halting traffic. “Stop what you’re doing! Let the Lord into your heart! You please the devil with your sinful ways!”

“Jesus,” murmured Catherine.

“I’m gonna guess not,” I said. I started the car. “I’m gonna hope not. I wonder if I’m gonna have to run this fool over?”

“You’re lost!” cried the guy. But he also demonstrated that he hadn’t lost all touch with reality by stepping away from the front of our car.

“Repent!” he fairly yelled from the curb. “Accept the Lord! Turn your back on the devil! Rid yourself of your sin!”

I slowly pulled our car out and headed down the residential street.

“Well,” said Cat, “wasn’t that special?”

“Can you imagine being God, and looking down, and seeing that?” I said. “I wonder what Jesus thinks when he sees stuff like that?”

“‘Maybe I should become a Buddhist’?,” said Cat. “Or maybe, ‘I need to get some new salespeople. People who aren’t totally rude and intrusive? People who don’t think the way to attract people to me is to scream insults at them’?”

“Or maybe he’d just go, “‘That’s it. I give up. Time for the Apocalypse.’”

That the Christian with the flyers and the orange cap meant well isn’t in question. Ultimately, he was just trying to do his proselytizing job. But instead of attracting my wife and me to Christianity, he repelled us away from it, because his evangelizing was grounded in what all such efforts must be, which is a lack of respect. By proving that he had no respect whatsoever for our belief system, he proved that he could have no respect for us personally. And that could only mean that he did not, and would not, love us, since the best that love without respect can be is patronizing. He also eradicated any possibility of his loving us by driving us away from him: it’s not possible to actually and truly love someone with whom you have no relationship at all.

And by manifestly not loving us—by trying as he did to fulfill what Christians after the fact decided to call The Great Commission (“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations . . . “)—our evangelizer broke what Jesus himself emphatically declared the greatest of all commandments: to love your neighbor as you love yourself. (See the Great Commission at Matthew 28:16-20, and the Great Commandment at Mark 12:28-31.)

By trying to sell Jesus that guy violated Jesus.

If you’re a Christian, please never forget that the whole point of being a witness is to answer questions that someone first asks you.

[olger]

It isn't helpful to shout at people that they are lost. He should have stopped after this in my opinion:

“But there’s only one true way, friend. And that way is through Jesus Christ. I walked around the front of our car to the driver’s side. Christianity’s a really sound option, for sure,” I said."

G

[phkrause]

I can definitely see his point. Do I agree with it, yes, but not fully. I believe there are people that can be witnessed to this way. Just like each different way of witnessing brings bring to Jesus. Some need doctrine, some need evangelism, some like the brimstone and fire stuff, why I don't know. But I believe most like to see our "Faith" in action.

[Bravus]

Threats only work on people who have already internalised the framework. Threats of hell might work on ex-Christians who still believe deep down, but are unlikely to work on people who have never before been threatened with hell.

Also, you'll notice how rapidly it moves from depictions of Jesus' love to threats. We see that happen here, too.

If the draw is love, stick with love.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Also, you'll notice how rapidly it moves from depictions of Jesus' love to threats. We see that happen here, too.

Whats the threat when you know that life at the end is only sleep, except those who are alive at His coming.

"All the kings of the nations, all of them lie sleeping in glorious array, each one in his own sepulcher."Isaiah 14:18 AMP

God cares!

[Bravus]

If there's no threat, why threaten?

[Liz]

As we were approaching our car, we saw that a guy who had just pinned a flyer to our dashboard was now doing the same to the car parked behind ours. He gave us a friendly wave. “I hope you don’t mind me leaving one of these on your car,” he said cheerily.

I unlocked the passenger side door so that Cat could get in. “No problem” I said. But what he apparently somehow heard me say instead was, “Please come over and talk to us.”

“It’s for a nearby church,” he said,

"Hope to see y'all there sometime," Should have been his next sentence. And then if the couple didn't talk further, THAT is where he should have ended the conversation. In my opinion.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

If there's no threat, why threaten?

Exactly. If a person is satisfied that God is Love and also Sovereign, threats have only the motivation to defend one's self instead of allowing God to work it out the way He knows is best.

"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places."Eph 6:12 NKJV

Some see warnings as threats.

"But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord."2 Peter 2:10-11 KJV

God cares!

[JoeMo]

The story by my "avatar twin" Neil is so common in many evangelical churches. Frequently we assume that people have the same world-view as we do. We even see it here on CA. Some of us here are Shiite Adventists - shoving EGW quotes and Bible verses around like they are universally perceived as truth. I have learned so much from the non-SDA's and non-Christians on this board about how to talk to people. Witnessing doesn't always have to start with "Jesus loves you" or "Do you know if you are saved?" Many times it can start with "What's up?"; or "How are you doing?" Sometimes it doesn't take any words at all - silently pay the bill for the person behind you in line at Starbucks or McDonald's some time, without saying a word. Watch the expression on their face; and tell me that they weren't blessed!

If someone in line at a grocery store in front of you is a couple bucks short, give them the money. See if they aren't blessed! A simple "Bless You!" is probably a sufficient witness in that case. They might even ask "Are you a Christian?" There's your open door. People are much more likely to care about what you say when they no you care about them.

[Gail]

[D.A. Wintsmith]

What occurs in conversations such as this is a breakdown in communication based upon a lack of shared assumptions. When I was taught how to witness, it was always with the assumption that the person I was witnessing unto shared a certain basic world view with me -- the prime one being that the Bible is the final word on all things (so had my Bible texts ready); next, that sin exists and is bad, and finally, that if one isn't a church goer, one knows deep down that they should be. Basically, we were taught to witness to backsliders and rebels, people whose conscience needed to be nudged so they would return to what we both knew was right.

I was never trained on how to witness to a real nonChristian, someone who has holy books I've never read, and who may not perceive these holy books in the same way that I was taught to regard the Holy Bible. So when a witness with a gleam in his eye like the guy in this article meets up with someone who finds peace on a cushion (even as his hips lock up), it's as though they are speaking in gibberish. They are using the same words but they have different meanings, and they don't share a common paradigm from which to begin a sensible conversation.

I was certainly never taught that other people's beliefs deserved respect for the simple reason that they were WRONG. And this is the thing that many nonChristians find so irritating -- and frightening -- particularly where I live in the Southern U.S. where Christianity is the majority and nonChristians are far out-numbered. They aren't sure where that gleam in the eye coupled with the lack of respect for other beliefs may lead.

[M. T. Cross]

What occurs in conversations such as this is a breakdown in communication based upon a lack of shared assumptions. When I was taught how to witness, it was always with the assumption that the person I was witnessing unto shared a certain basic world view with me -- the prime one being that the Bible is the final word on all things (so had my Bible texts ready); next, that sin exists and is bad, and finally, that if one isn't a church goer, one knows deep down that they should be. Basically, we were taught to witness to backsliders and rebels, people whose conscience needed to be nudged so they would return to what we both knew was right.

I was never trained on how to witness to a real nonChristian, someone who has holy books I've never read, and who may not perceive these holy books in the same way that I was taught to regard the Holy Bible. So when a witness with a gleam in his eye like the guy in this article meets up with someone who finds peace on a cushion (even as his hips lock up), it's as though they are speaking in gibberish. They are using the same words but they have different meanings, and they don't share a common paradigm from which to begin a sensible conversation.

I was certainly never taught that other people's beliefs deserved respect for the simple reason that they were WRONG. And this is the thing that many nonChristians find so irritating -- and frightening -- particularly where I live in the Southern U.S. where Christianity is the majority and nonChristians are far out-numbered. They aren't sure where that gleam in the eye coupled with the lack of respect for other beliefs may lead.

Curious..... have you since learned to talk to people of other world views and beliefs with respect and in a meaningful way?

(p.s. No matter how I word that question it comes off snotty. That is not my intention. I don't know you and have only read a handful of your posts, so it is a sincere question.)

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Curious..... have you since learned to talk to people of other world views and beliefs with respect and in a meaningful way?

(p.s. No matter how I word that question it comes off snotty. That is not my intention. I don't know you and have only read a handful of your posts, so it is a sincere question.)

The story is told of the son who left his Father's house for a trip to a far country where he spent his time learning how to waste his money and time on people who turned their back on him as soon as he ran out of money. How do you speak respectfully about the "fun life" that leads to a deadend?

God cares!

[olger]

"Hope to see y'all there sometime," Should have been his next sentence. And then if the couple didn't talk further, THAT is where he should have ended the conversation. In my opinion.

This ^^^

[olger]

Quote:

Curious..... have you since learned to talk to people of other world views and beliefs with respect and in a meaningful way?

(p.s. No matter how I word that question it comes off snotty. That is not my intention. I don't know you and have only read a handful of your posts, so it is a sincere question.)

The story is told of the son who left his Father's house for a trip to a far country where he spent his time learning how to waste his money and time on people who turned their back on him as soon as he ran out of money. How do you speak respectfully about the "fun life" that leads to a deadend?

God cares!

Good point, Sir.

[olger]

By the way, would this would be a good time to comment on the thousands of faithful Christians that have inspired people? My life has been blessed by them in many ways.

Or, would that mess up the negative flow of this thread? Sorry.

Rejoice always!

`G

[M. T. Cross]

Quote:

Curious..... have you since learned to talk to people of other world views and beliefs with respect and in a meaningful way?

(p.s. No matter how I word that question it comes off snotty. That is not my intention. I don't know you and have only read a handful of your posts, so it is a sincere question.)

The story is told of the son who left his Father's house for a trip to a far country where he spent his time learning how to waste his money and time on people who turned their back on him as soon as he ran out of money. How do you speak respectfully about the "fun life" that leads to a deadend?

God cares!

Are you saying that any religion that is not Christian is about the "fun life"?

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Are you saying that any religion that is not Christian is about the "fun life"?

LHC - Is it further accurate to infer from your post that the Christian life isn't fun? Life is as fun as you let it be, regardless of your religious persuasion. No matter what faith you are, there is "fun" that leads to a better life; and fun that leads to a dead end - maybe even death. I think the story of the prodigal son has positive lessons for everyone - not just Christians.

[phkrause]

I think the story of the prodigal son has positive lessons for everyone - not just Christians.

I'm in definite agreement with you on this. The Bible is positive lessons for all not just the story of the prodigal son.

[Planey]

I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

[olger]

For

Sooth!

[debbym]

His picture of God that he is pushing is not accurate to start with, from there it is all downhill.

[joeb]

I'm curious to know what a "good" Christian is after reading this thread.

[CoAspen]

Ah....hmmm......well....lets see....requires judgement on my part, so ain't going there!!!

[phkrause]

Ah....hmmm......well....lets see....requires judgement on my part, so ain't going there!!!

I do agree CoAspen about judging, but I believe the judging that is meant is the one about who goes to heaven or not, that's God's Judgement! I do believe that on many things we have to be able to judge. Do we not judge when assigned to jury duty? For me I believe, at least on the outward appearence, a good Christian is one that follows Jesus' example. If I'm not mistaken, the first Christian were called so because they followed Jesus Christ? I'm not certain, but do remember something to that effect! An example of judging, would be, some of the replys on this forum towards those that have indicated that they are not Christians, by those that claim to be Christians.