ObamaCare vs. the Affordable Care Act

[bonnie]

Quote:

You seem to mistakenly assume that your own experience as a business owner is the only path to wisdom and understanding of thes issues. I don't doubt it gives you a great deal of experiential knowledge and wisdom in running your business. But it is a perspective that is far from comprehensive and does not qualify you to do many other things, or even run many other types of businesses. And it really doesn't qualify you to denigrate others experience and knowledge and resulting opinions as less valid or inferior.

But since you seem to have some narrow perspective of what it takes to have sufficient business accuman to measure up to your idea of what it takes to have a valid opinion of the issues at hand let me share what you very likely do not know about me. This is not meant to brag or to play a "mine is bigger and better than yours" sort of game. It is simple to give you some perspective. Beyond what you think you know about me by my better known professional experience through my full time day job as a lawyer for the Church, I am also the chairman of the board of an employer not associated with the Church with about five hundred employees and over $40 million in gross revenue a year and asset book value of about $60 million.

Not sure how that measures up to your "successful business" standard for being qualified to have a clue about these things, but I think my experience and perspective counts for something.

I realize this was a rebuttal to olger,but hopefully you will answer a few questions.

You are talking apples and oranges,big business which usually is in bed with the government and the small business owner,which is the backbone of this country.

Did you start this multi million dollar business with next to nothing but good credit? Was the risk all on your family?

Did you go without pay while making sure all of these employees were paid in a timely fashion ? Did you take the 6-7 days a week,consider 12 hour days a short work day?

Did you and your family bear the full brunt and risk of a bad economy?

My sons have similar respnsibility. They did not build the companies they work for and their paycheck is always assured.

They can of course lose their jobs as any one else and do carry a lot of heavy responsibility. But they have not put in the blood,sweat,sacrifice and tears to start the business from scratch

When my brother took stock of where he would be at in this current climate,he alone was responsible for the livlihood of his employees and the security of his own family.He has weathered bad economies before but this was one he was not going to fight.That decision was not based on who is president or his dislike of him,but on sound financial advice from professionals

that are very familiar with the pitfalls for a small business.

Explain the unions crying foul now.They have been very staunch supporters of this administration.

Are we supposed to believe it is ignorance now and you are the one that really has the facts?

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Yep, me too. I suspect I have worked at more kinds of such menial low paying jobs than the one making the broadside that started this little exchange. Janitor, factory worker, farm worker, chicken catcher, food service, painter/handyman, security guard, night watch, hospital orderly, pharmacy technician, lawn care....

The quote above came from another post but it does serve to reveal a need for an attitude change. I don't recall any earthly positions on earth being given the position of menial. Seems to me even the lords of Eygypt went bankrupt when they lost the slave labor that fattened their bankroll. I know it is hard for someone in charge of a successful business venture to admit that he has others to thank for his/her success, however it is true we all need to be thankful there are others we can depend on when our own resources prove to be less than admirable.

I'm only going to give one text as the basis for my "opinion", but as one individual pointed out, when they (Scriptures)are given for wisdom, it is seen as a lecture not fit to draw attention to for arriving at a wise choice.

"Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?" Romans 2:1-3 NASB

God cares!

[Bravus]

The fact that the ACA was passed by a Democrat-controlled House and Senate is irrelevant.

You understand how representative democracy works, right? The people elect the politicians, the politicians vote on the bills.

If the people elected more Democrats in both houses, it was because they believed Democrats would better protect their interests. One of the issues on which the Democrats campaigned was health care.

In a representative democracy, the party that could not get enough votes to stop a law does not get to use other means to attack that law once it is a law. If that happens, the democracy will become completely inoperable, because the losing party will keep on destroying the country until it gets its way. No law will stand. The legislative branch will be dead.

Democracy is one of the major bragging points of America, which has been trying to export it at the point of a gun for decades. But apparently the great defenders of the Constitution are willing to tear it all down if they don't get their way.

[olger]

Missing the point ..........power whine......

Hey great. Always glad to see a fellow businessman succeed. When did you start your business and how do you have time to manage it since you are a full time employee elsewhere?

Or are you referring to being co-chair of the Religious Organizations Subcommittee?

`oG

[phkrause]

Excellent points Bravus

[Tom Wetmore]

Really!?!? You need to read more carefully. Did I say co-chair of a committee? And how do you suppose that a subcommittee from a professional organization would fit the rest of the described facts? Do you even know what that is even about?

It really is a bit pointless to continue feeding trolls ...

[olger]

Breathe friend.

Job 22:21.

[Ted Oplinger]

The fact that the ACA was passed by a Democrat-controlled House and Senate is irrelevant.

You understand how representative democracy works, right? The people elect the politicians, the politicians vote on the bills.

If the people elected more Democrats in both houses, it was because they believed Democrats would better protect their interests. One of the issues on which the Democrats campaigned was health care.

In a representative democracy, the party that could not get enough votes to stop a law does not get to use other means to attack that law once it is a law. If that happens, the democracy will become completely inoperable, because the losing party will keep on destroying the country until it gets its way. No law will stand. The legislative branch will be dead.

[bonnie]

The quote above came from another post but it does serve to reveal a need for an attitude change. I don't recall any earthly positions on earth being given the position of menial. Seems to me even the lords of Eygypt went bankrupt when they lost the slave labor that fattened their bankroll. I know it is hard for someone in charge of a successful business venture to admit that he has others to thank for his/her success, however it is true we all need to be thankful there are others we can depend on when our own resources prove to be less than admirable.

You couldn't be more wrong.A successful business owner places a great deal of value on the employee.

There are bad employers as there are bad employees. Working for someone does not make you a slave.

Without good employees you cannot have a successful business.

The employee also owes a debt of thanks for being employed.For that employer that took the risk,his own families security,his home and all his asessts,his dedication to working up to 80 hours a week,for paying his employees in a timely fashion during the lean years when his own family had to wait.

[Naomi]

Bonnie & Ted ...

[Tom Wetmore]

In 2010, American gave the purse strings of the nation - control of the House - back to the Republicans, who ran on a platform to repeal ACA, and loosen the Democrat stranglehold on the increased runaway spending which accompanied a Democrat Party which had not passed any budget (per law).

That seems to be a skewed view, ignoring the role of the Senate also has in the process. But there is something else implied that is missing a very important factor that impacted that election cycle and likely many to come. It is far from the supposed mandate of the American people to do as you suggest, but rather it is amplification of the dysfunction ideological divide in this country.

What I am referring to is recently getting some attention in the media as one explanation of the uncompromising recalcitrance we see in Congress. I am talking about the substantial increase in gerrymandered Congressional Districts that followed the 2010 census, when redistricting takes place. This has resulted in many redefined districts that shift the majority politically to create absolutely safe haven for one party (or faction of a party) or the other. A significant number of those unwilling to compromise or negotiate in this whole mess are now in districts where they are virtually guaranteed to win reelection by strong double digits over any opponent. They do not have to worry about representing a diverse political demographic back home. And we can see that the only real motivator for far too many in Congress, guiding everything they do is reelection. THis has made far too many completely tone deaf to what the majority of the country as a whole really wants or even what is really in the best interests of the whole country, the economy or whatever the major issue of the day is.

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

The quote above came from another post but it does serve to reveal a need for an attitude change. I don't recall any earthly positions on earth being given the position of menial. Seems to me even the lords of Eygypt went bankrupt when they lost the slave labor that fattened their bankroll. I know it is hard for someone in charge of a successful business venture to admit that he has others to thank for his/her success, however it is true we all need to be thankful there are others we can depend on when our own resources prove to be less than admirable.

You couldn't be more wrong.A successful business owner places a great deal of value on the employee.

There are bad employers as there are bad employees. Working for someone does not make you a slave.

Without good employees you cannot have a successful business...

Hang on to your hat, Bonnie! On this we agree. What immediately jumped out at me was obviously a serious misunderstanding of the meaning of the word "menial". A quick check of a dictionary would have avoided that, I believe.

As each of us has recounted the many jobs requiring minimal or no skills, it has not been from a sense of shame or involuntary servitude. In fact I grew up with the example of my own father who proudly worked hard at two jobs all his life. His life demonstrated the value of doing even the humblest of tasks with a sense of satisfaction and accomplishment at doing it well. But what it has done is give us a greater awareness of the value and importance of every hard working employee, no matter their position or responsibility.

Someone once pointed out that a simply way to get a sense of valuing everyone is to be aware of those seemingly invisible people that do the menial work around us. Focusing on an office setting, they asked, "Do you know the name of the person who empties the trash at your office?" If you don't, find out, then address them by name and thank them.

[bonnie]

Hang on to your hat, Bonnie! On this we agree. What immediately jumped out at me was obviously a serious misunderstanding of the meaning of the word "menial". A quick check of a dictionary would have avoided that, I believe.

As each of us has recounted the many jobs requiring minimal or no skills, it has not been from a sense of shame or involuntary servitude. In fact I grew up with the example of my own father who proudly worked hard at two jobs all his life. His life demonstrated the value of doing even the humblest of tasks with a sense of satisfaction and accomplishment at doing it well. But what it has done is give us a greater awareness of the value and importance of every hard working employee, no matter their position or responsibility.

Someone once pointed out that a simply way to get a sense of valuing everyone is to be aware of those seemingly invisible people that do the menial work around us. Focusing on an office setting, they asked, "Do you know the name of the person who empties the trash at your office?" If you don't, find out, then address them by name and thank them.

We are still on different pages. I am coming from the perspective of the small business owner. You on the other hand are not.The small business owner doesn't have to worry about those that empties the trash.That is usually the owner or family.

The small business owner cannot afford to have any employee that is invisible. While there is nothing wrong with thanking any employee for a job well done,How often do you suggest the employee thanks the employer for the sacrifice he and his family has made so that he has the employment he has?

[bonnie]

Tom,holding the professional positions you do has that required you to deprive your family not just of things they would like but of necessities most people take for granted? Anyone that has started a business on a wing and a prayer do just that.

That is what happens for most small business owners that have hung in there and become successful.

Employees come first,before your family.They don't say to the employer,"we will share the tough times with you".It is I want my check and benefits. Then comes the cost of doing business that must be paid,taxes,insurance etc.Then if you are really doing well in the early years,you may be able to pay your own bills with a little left over for the family.

The owner works up to 80 hours a week while the employee puts in 40.

[Tom Wetmore]

Not so much on a different page really. The same principles should apply regardless of size of the business. It is just much harder to maintain some of those ideas with a large employer. But I do think that while many large employers miss the boat on these things, many small businesses do too.

[olger]

Those small businesses that "miss the boat" do not last.

I could provide a whole series of examples.

`oG

[bonnie]

Not so much on a different page really. The same principles should apply regardless of size of the business. It is just much harder to maintain some of those ideas with a large employer. But I do think that while many large employers miss the boat on these things, many small businesses do too.

I worked for a large Home Improvement company. My thanks was my paycheck in a timely manner and my bonuses for doing the best job I could. While at times the owner would come from out of state and do a walk thru. He frequently would say Thank you or How are you doing.Big deal.He ran a tight ship and employees were expected to do the job they were hired for.He however was generous where it counted more than Thank you.

Funny how those that did not earn or deserve the bonuses were quick to say what a "horrible place" it was to work.

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: Ted Oplinger

In 2010, American gave the purse strings of the nation - control of the House - back to the Republicans, who ran on a platform to repeal ACA, and loosen the Democrat stranglehold on the increased runaway spending which accompanied a Democrat Party which had not passed any budget (per law).

That seems to be a skewed view, ignoring the role of the Senate also has in the process. But there is something else implied that is missing a very important factor that impacted that election cycle and likely many to come. It is far from the supposed mandate of the American people to do as you suggest, but rather it is amplification of the dysfunction ideological divide in this country.

[fccool]

Quote:

When does it go too far, Tom? When martial law is declared, due to civil disobedience of a citizenry exercising dissent? When conservatives are rounded up "for the good of the country"? When the shooting of "Tea Party terrorists" starts? What will it take for liberals to take THEIR political blinders off? 70 years of one-party rule, and things are so deplorable - as was seen in Mexico and the Soviet Union? What does it take, to shake people awake that we aren't in a political football game anymore, because accountability exists only for one side?

Ted, come on. I lived in Sovied Union, and suffered its collapse.

I lived through a time when all of my family savings evaporated overnight, and so did everyone else's. I lived through times when two families of four had to share a college dorm room, and it was a day-to-day living experience. I lived when my parents were worried crazy when I would go outside to buy some food, because people would be robbed and killed left and right.

Compared to that, your US experience is a heavenly bliss. Making a big deal of bunch of politicians racking up debt to shore up the economy and their buddies in the industries that elected them - OLD NEWS. US is a baby in that sense, while every country in history went by the same old road.

My advice - spend time doing something more productive than being angry at the inevitable outcomes of certain governmental structure. The founding father of this country should have known the danger of creating strong central government. They should have avoided and limited it at any cost necessary, which would not put this country in a debacle it is right now, but it would likewise would undo a vast majority of the progress we've experienced in the past 70-100 years.

[CoAspen]

Can't deny that we do have it good, very good!!

[phkrause]

Ted, come on. I lived in Sovied Union, and suffered its collapse.

I lived through a time when all of my family savings evaporated overnight, and so did everyone else's. I lived through times when two families of four had to share a college dorm room, and it was a day-to-day living experience. I lived when my parents were worried crazy when I would go outside to buy some food, because people would be robbed and killed left and right.

Compared to that, your US experience is a heavenly bliss. Making a big deal of bunch of politicians racking up debt to shore up the economy and their buddies in the industries that elected them - OLD NEWS. US is a baby in that sense, while every country in history went by the same old road.

My advice - spend time doing something more productive than being angry at the inevitable outcomes of certain governmental structure. The founding father of this country should have known the danger of creating strong central government. They should have avoided and limited it at any cost necessary, which would not put this country in a debacle it is right now, but it would likewise would undo a vast majority of the progress we've experienced in the past 70-100 years.

[Tom Wetmore]

Ted,

I have to say I am quite disappointed in your response. Go back and read very carefully what I wrote. And then go back and read very carefully what you wrote aside from the very obvious difference in the number of words expended, notice anything else?

I was very intentional about not going down the partisan rant path. I spoke of a systemic problem that is shared in startlingly equal proportion across the rather even partisan divide. I very intentionally even noted the fact that the serious problem of gerrymandering cuts both ways.

But look at your extended and very partisan rant defending Republicans and excoriating Democrats. Nothing you said addresses itself toward a solution to the serious problem I identified. It only ramps up the political rhetoric. This is not the political forum. But you have pretty much guaranteed that this topic will likely get dumped on the political poo pile as irretrievably over the partisan line. It has been dancing on the edge, you just gave it a huge push.

[olger]

Ted,

I have to say I appreciate your response. You answered all of Tom's objections and more.

`g

[joeb]

Hmmm.... We're in the debacle we're in because of what the politicians have done over the last 70-100 years, and yet you call the US becoming more and more like the Soviet Union every day "progress". ***Shakes head in disbelief.***