Sandra Roberts-This SPIRITUAL FORMATION cult leader as SECC president? Oh Lord

[CoAspen]

Thanks for reading between the lines!!

[olger]

I am not trying to be sarcastic, I do have some serious concerns over contemplative prayer and what it can do to people.

Salute,

`oG

[ClubV12]

It doesn't matter what her training or her beliefs are or are not. It's very simple:

The current Church Manual and Bylaws disallow a woman holding this position.

If she is elected, the SECC is in direct opposition to the requirements of Church law. This will place the SECC in open, defiant rebellion against the world Church, as led by the General Conference.

The solution is equally simple, "try wait". Wait for the General Conference to make a ruling on the W.O. issue. Wait for the Church Manual and Bylaws to be changed in accordance with that finding, should it favor W.O.

Or join Korah in the rebellion against Moses right now, don't wait, jump in there, your call SECC. Korah was willing to die for his beliefs, and he did! He was deeply, sincere..ly mistaken. Many a person has died for his Christian faith, not realizing what they have actually done is committ suicide.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

The purpose of contemplative prayer is to enter an Altered State Of Consciousness in order to find one's True Self, thus finding God. This true self relates to the belief that man is basically good. Proponents of contemplative prayer teach that all human beings have a divine center and that all, not just born again believers, should practice contemplative prayer.

Contemplative Spirituality: A belief system that uses ancient mystical practices to induce altered states of consciousness (the silence) and is rooted in mysticism and the occult but often wrapped in Christian terminology. The premise of contemplative spirituality is pantheistic (God is all) and panentheistic (God is in all). Common terms used for this movement are "spiritual formation," "the silence," "the stillness," "ancient-wisdom," "spiritual disciplines," and many others.

Spiritual Formation: A movement that has provided a platform and a channel through which contemplative prayer is entering the church. Find spiritual formation being used, and in nearly every case you will find contemplative spirituality. In fact, contemplative spirituality is the heartbeat of the spiritual formation movement.

How you like them apples?

nice copying of the apples from a website...probably ought to give your sources when you cut and paste...

[BobRyan]

This is about Spirit Formation not about contemplative prayer..

It is like saying do not be a vegetarian because yoga is not good.

[Kevin H]

It doesn't matter what her training or her beliefs are or are not. It's very simple:

The current Church Manual and Bylaws disallow a woman holding this position.

If she is elected, the SECC is in direct opposition to the requirements of Church law. This will place the SECC in open, defiant rebellion against the world Church, as led by the General Conference.

The solution is equally simple, "try wait". Wait for the General Conference to make a ruling on the W.O. issue. Wait for the Church Manual and Bylaws to be changed in accordance with that finding, should it favor W.O.

Or join Korah in the rebellion against Moses right now, don't wait, jump in there, your call SECC. Korah was willing to die for his beliefs, and he did! He was deeply, sincere..ly mistaken. Many a person has died for his Christian faith, not realizing what they have actually done is committ suicide.

Is this more like the rebellion of Korah, or is it more like the rebellion by the Greek Speaking lay-members of the early church who were bringing the gospel to the gentiles when the General Conference (which happened to consist of Apostles, Prophets and Bible Writers) disallowed it?

[ClubV12]

Interesting comment Kevin. By introducing the divisions within the early Church between the Hellenists and Hebraic Jews and then suggesting the "G.C." of that time was wrong, you introduce significant confusion to this issue. This was fundamentally the problem with the Hellenists and Hebraic Jews. Conflict, difference of opinion have always existed in the Church. Our pioneers being no exception.

Concerning the Seventh-day Adventist pioneers, the record is clear, those that openly opposed the leading of the world Church eventually left the faith. There are many examples of this, good men, men who God had used to do great things, who at some point, failed. Some recovered, some did not.

There is a marked difference between differences of opinion and setting your opinion aside in favor of the body, the world Church, in order to maintain basic harmony. This even Ellen White did. Perhaps the best example being when she had no direct light as to whether or not she should move to Australia, she honored and followed the leaderships direction. She said later it was Gods will for her to go. Was the leadership wrong? That could certainly be argued, more important, did God work with His appointed erring, fumbling leaders? Of course He did, and the work went forward.

Korahs rebellion is not confusing or controversial, it was much more than a groups combined opinion. He and they directly challenged the authority of leadership, ignoring the "Church" manual and by-laws that governed that body of believers. This is the position the SECC now finds itself in, a direct challenge to the authority of the world Church. Korah, indeed.

[Kevin H]

Good post ClubV12. I don't know how I feel about this person with the arguments brought up about Spiritual Formation, a topic that I am undecided about. But I do believe that Moses, Jesus and Paul were supporters of women's ordination, and her nomination will raise questions and discussion and HOPEFULLY study.

[ClubV12]

Kevin says, "Moses, Jesus and Paul were supporters of women's ordination...", needs an * (asterisk).

We see asterisks being used a lot these days as a means of communicating the "record" or "position" needs to be qualified in some manner.

An ordained deacon has authority within his local Church, with no authority beyond that. An ordained Minister has authority to speak for the Church anywhere in the world.

I too support womens ordination,,, with an asterisk.

I don't see in the bible or the Spirit of Prophecy where world wide authority to speak for the Church has been given to women. Quite the opposite in fact, it is clear to me that roll is exclusive to men (no asterisk required). I believe the G.C. will eventually rule the same way.

Perhaps the question should be: What if they DON'T allow womens ordination in the way and manner you think it should be allowed? What will you do? It's a rhetorical question not specific to any one person...

NOTE: I am troubled by the connections with Spiritual Formation and what all that means. But in view of the larger principles concerning "authority", I don't feel a need to dwell on it in this case.

[Gail]

*cough* asterisk...

[ClubV12]

*cough*,,, thanks for the heads up on the spelling error. :)

[Gail]

[BobRyan]

Is this more like the rebellion of Korah, or is it more like the rebellion by the Greek Speaking lay-members of the early church who were bringing the gospel to the gentiles when the General Conference (which happened to consist of Apostles, Prophets and Bible Writers) disallowed it?

As you read the story in Acts 15 - just exactly how many apostles and prophets do you find objecting to gentile evangelism or insisting that all gentiles become Jews?

Does the number zero come up?

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

*cough*,,, thanks for the heads up on the spelling error.

I don't know what all that is about - but I think I glad it is over.

:)

[CoAspen]

Quote:

In Christian Spiritual Formation the focus is on Jesus. It is a lifelong process as a believer desires to become a disciple of Jesus and become more like him. This would be possible because of the divine grace of the Gospel and the empowering presence of the Holy Spirit.

Quote:

I am troubled by the connections with Spiritual Formation and what all that means.

So what troubles you about focusing on Jesus? or for that matter, anyone else care to tell us? Those of you speaking against it???

[BobRyan]

Ignatius Loyola had a view of SF that included the centering prayer and communication with the dead that I am sure most SDAs would not approve of - but he could have painted it all as "a focus on Christ" if that would better sell it - don't you think? Samir may have gone for that.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

If someone was wrong in part of his teachings, should *all* of his teachings be thrown out? (Remember, some things that Ellen White wrote are now considered to be a reflection of the times in which she lived, and not necessarily accurate...)

[ClubV12]

Co, I think it's a classic case of the paradoxes we find through out the bible.

Meditate on the word, but don't cross the line into "meditation". Yoga is a good thing, or, is it? Thats a paradox. There are good things within the teachings of Spiritual Formation, mixed with misinterpretations and error.

One way the Holy Spirit guides us is through counsel that has already been provided. In the bible, in the Spirit of Prophecy and through the counsel of the brethren, as well as conviction of the heart. Ignoring one or more of the channels employed by the Spirit to reach us puts us in danger of being deceived. The devil loves to mix truth and error.

Jesus avoided conflict and controversy if at all possible. I see to much conflict and controversy as it concerns Spiritual Formation. That is a major red warning flag that something is wrong.

That fact that Ellen White never claimed to be infallible is also a paradox. It gives plenty of room to doubt her gift to those who wish to do so. And yet, causes no harm for those who understand her true calling. A prophet, and more than a prophet, a special inspired messenger for these last days. A gift from God to His Church.

[olger]

I think we should ordain women* (sound of Tom falling to the floor).

*as mothers.

Rejoice always,

g

[debbym]

you do know there is a wonderful chapter in the SDA minister's manual with a very healthy non spiritualism kind of spiritual formation.

just as there is a true Sabbath and a false Sabbath, there is true spiritual formation and false spiritual formation.

God made and man made.

check it out, Sandra Roberts may well have preparation to offer a great deep understanding and guidance in true spiritual formation.

and this is something deeply needed.

[phkrause]

[lazarus]

How about this:

Does anyone have any quotes etc. from Ms. Roberts that indicate what her perspective is? Post them please. I'm sure those who are supportive of the OP have something.

[olger]

Good post ClubV12. I don't know how I feel about this person with the arguments brought up about Spiritual Formation, a topic that I am undecided about. But I do believe that Moses, Jesus and Paul were supporters of women's ordination, and her nomination will raise questions and discussion and HOPEFULLY study.

So the Apostle Paul, Jesus and Moses are all supporters of women's ordination. That is some first class revisionism.

Congrats.

g

[mel20]

Though Woman Ordination is a big issue, but the biggest discrimination concern is about the "blue law" (unwritten but mandatory and have consequences) in SECC and PUC region, enforcing all board members and senior pastors to prohibit any SDA women that against Women Ordination to speak up.

This issue is far more than just "that's not fair".... This is extreme but subtle discrimination.

Pastor Randy Roberts (LLUC senior pastor) spoke in about 1 hour duration to support Women Ordination just before the vote last year in August PUC special constituency meeting. (oops...they coincidentally have the same last name 'eh?)

The bad new is, months before the vote, many other SDA women that against Woman Ordination sent messages, emails, letters to PUC office and via their local conferences, asking for them to speak up against WO in that special meeting.

Yet their messages are buried alive by our "one-sided leaders". That's why we never heard any of their opposition messages, because they're discriminated to speak up in every official meeting.

How much more this "blue law" will prohibit ex-homosexuals and ex-lesbians that have been restored to speak up and to share their victory over sin testimonies in our very own sanctuaries. And..what's next? Hmmm..what's the real purpose of the SDA church... built in multi-million dollar investment of each, anyway?

The pro-WO as well as gay/lesbian SDA only pictured themselves as victims and demanding justice, love and equality while at the same time they keep harassing, mocking, attacking (physically and verbally) and make fun the "restored" members as you can see here https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ne8X1YJWaec

Yeah the real character will be revealed especially in time of crisis. Nothing new here.

Why our members never do something about this? Please come to California to help your God's family there. We are a worldwide Advent movement. Not a PUC movement!

Btw, Sandra Roberts “Earned a Doctor of Ministry degree, with emphasis in SPIRITUAL FORMATION, from the Claremont School of Theology” http://seccsecretariat.adventistfaith.org/

[CoAspen]

Well, hope you didn't hold your breath!!