SooutheasternCalifornia elects female Conference President.

[ClubV12]

HAS God fitted women for ordination and the highest positions of leadership? That is the question! Lets wait upon the Lord to reveal His present will through those He has appointed as shepards over the Church. That is all the G.C. is asking.

I do believe China is one of the exceptions to the rule that Ellen White speaks of concerning a wide variety of issues. Dress, food, ministry, practical solutions befitting the needs of the time, the country, the circumstances. What works in one place won't work in another. What is sin in one place is not sin in another.

Again, like the children God used to spread His message at a time when it was unsafe for adults to express the same. Or even the very rocks if need be!

We wouldn't elect children based on this. As to China, without knowing considerably more about the whys and why not's it would not be safe to draw a conclusion or suggest any other country follow their lead. One thing we DO know, China is not officially a part of the World Church organization. A differenct culture, may need a different approach.

The G.C. could rule in such a manner, leaving the Unions or Divisions to decide what works in their area. Currently, that is not the case, all those under the authority of the G.C. should honor them, as they want to be honored.

Those who support W.O., frankly, are sounding more and more radical and outspoken every day. Their tone is alarming. We see the fruit they have brought about, open rebellion, trash talking leadership. If for no other reason, I am more convinced than ever from these actions alone, this is a movement God cannot bless.

[lazarus]

Those who support W.O., frankly, are sounding more and more radical and outspoken every day. Their tone is alarming. We see the fruit they have brought about, open rebellion, trash talking leadership. If for no other reason, I am more convinced than ever from these actions alone, this is a movement God cannot bless.

You can't be talking about posters here. I think everyone supporter of WO here has been measured and quite matter-of-fact really. The heightened sense of emotion has really come from those who oppose WO. Talk of splits, rebellion, life/death etc has certainly made things seem rather dramatic. I can understand that since it seems as if the changes that are taking place are really unstoppable.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

What is sin in one place is not sin in another.

Hmmmm...really! Regional sin!

Quote:

Those who support W.O., frankly, are sounding more and more radical and outspoken every day. Their tone is alarming. We see the fruit they have brought about, open rebellion, trash talking leadership. If for no other reason, I am more convinced than ever from these actions alone, this is a movement God cannot bless.

Radical? Regional Sin!!!

Is God blessing the efforts China? People are being rought to God.

Women bringing people to God in the USA, not being blest!

Another radical statement!

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

The G.C. could rule in such a manner, leaving the Unions or Divisions to decide what works in their area.

Ah! That is the point. It is argued that at least some NAD Unions have that authority, written into their Constitutions and that therefore, the General Conference action asking for people to wait, is not legally binding on these Unions.

[lazarus]

Hmmmm...really! Regional sin!

Yes. Interesting possibilities...... righteousness by location.

[ClubV12]

Gregory, I am aware of that "legal argument" to justify making their own rules up as they go along, I don't buy it. It doesn't hold water. It violates the greater law of being in harmony with the World Church. This will need to go to the "Supreme Court" for a resolution! But they won't wait for that, they have already made up their mind.

Regional sin? Absolutely! God treated each of Israels tribes according to their works. When a certain level of "sin" is reached within a region, EVERYBODY in the group pays the price, even the innocent.

Lazarus if you don't see those who demand W.O. "trash talking" the Adventist leadership, man, you need to get some eye salve guick. :)

[Gregory Matthews]

Exactly what I expected from you. No, I am not being negative, so please do not take it that way.

I also understand the position that you take.

Personally, I think that both sides in this issue raise some valid issues that must be considered.

[ClubV12]

Gregory I DID see that your comment was legitmate, truthful. I didn't see it as necessarily your opinion on the issue, but just noting that is their official position.

And, I don't buy it. My "Supreme Court" comment was meant in a more literal than spiritual sense. The "Supreme Court" of the Church (who ever that is) will have to consider that particular legal argument to see if it is valid. IF so, then what? Rewrite the law to plug a loop hole? Once you start doing that, where does it end? 613 rules?

Personally I do see their position as one of sophistry and manipulation of the "legal" aspects of the law. Judas was exceptionally skilled at these kinds of arguments, bringing confusion to the apostles, subtly changing the meaning of Christs words. Not saying anyone is a Judas, but the principles apply in this case. It's legal "word smithing" in my opinion.

[CyberGuy]

"Eve had been perfectly happy by her husband’s side in her Eden home; but, like restless modern Eves, she was flattered with the hope of entering a higher sphere than that which God had assigned her. In attempting to rise above her original position, she fell far below it. A similar result will be reached by all who are unwilling to take up cheerfully their life duties in accordance with God’s plan" Patriarchs and Prophets, 58, 59.

And what is Gods Plan for the women. Who are you to imply that Gods plan is for women to be barefoot and pregnant and that is their duty in life.

Who are you to say that Gods plan is not for a women to serve as a pastor and why not ordain her which is simply the churches way of acknowledging Gods Call to that women to serve as pastor. It is a dangerous thing to start putting oneself into Gods stead and Saying what women can and cannot do for God.

[Textus Receptus]

Rejoice! Jesus is coming! Hallelujah

[ClubV12]

Cyberguy wants to know, based on the quote from Patriarchs and Prophets:

"Who are you to imply that Gods plan is for women to be barefoot and pregnant and that is their duty in life."

That would be Ellen White, Cyberguy. Inspired messenger of the Lord, writing down what was revealed to her by our Lord. In effect, when you ask WHO made that statement? That would be God! May I suggest a little respect for your superiors would be appropriate.

Now, I don't see or interpret her statement the same way you do, but that does not surprise me.

[Tom Wetmore]

Yep, the very same woman that said, "It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God, that prepares worker, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God." - 6T 322.

[ClubV12]

Would that woman Pastor be ordained? THAT is the burning question! I have been blessed by some great sermons and talks from the ladies.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Who are you to say that Gods plan is not for a women to serve as a pastor and why not ordain her which is simply the churches way of acknowledging Gods Call to that women to serve as pastor.

If they are preaching and teaching the immortality of the soul, a day other than found in the Word as a day of worship, and a secret rapture, would that be an indication of whose calling them to minister?

Just askin'!

God cares!

[olger]

Originally Posted By: olger

"Eve had been perfectly happy by her husband’s side in her Eden home; but, like restless modern Eves, she was flattered with the hope of entering a higher sphere than that which God had assigned her. In attempting to rise above her original position, she fell far below it. A similar result will be reached by all who are unwilling to take up cheerfully their life duties in accordance with God’s plan" Patriarchs and Prophets, 58, 59.

And what is Gods Plan for the women. Who are you to imply that Gods plan is for women to be barefoot and pregnant and that is their duty in life.

Who are you to say that Gods plan is not for a women to serve as a pastor and why not ordain her which is simply the churches way of acknowledging Gods Call to that women to serve as pastor. It is a dangerous thing to start putting oneself into Gods stead and Saying what women can and cannot do for God.

I think they should be allowed to have shoes as a reward for obedience. One pair. Brown drab.

[/sarcasm]

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

I think they should be allowed to have shoes as a reward for obedience. One pair. Brown drab.

Priceless! But not everyone is going to think so. Maybe it's generational.

If you put your cursor on the word "shoes", seems like those might do.

They changed it with the edit. Maybe somebody bought the shoes.

God cares!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Cyberguy wants to know, based on the quote from Patriarchs and Prophets:

"Who are you to imply that Gods plan is for women to be barefoot and pregnant and that is their duty in life."

That would be Ellen White, Cyberguy. Inspired messenger of the Lord, writing down what was revealed to her by our Lord. In effect, when you ask WHO made that statement? That would be God! May I suggest a little respect for your superiors would be appropriate.

Now, I don't see or interpret her statement the same way you do, but that does not surprise me.

certainly is a good thing that Ellen White was barefoot and pregnant, and never bothered with or was concerned about anything else in her life..

[CyberGuy]

It should be noted that while EG White was raising her kids she did not have a single vision from God. After her kids were raised she started having the visions again and wrote most of her books.

Raising ones kids is a no higher calling from God. BUT after that is done then God has other callings for women.

[CyberGuy]

It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God. As they cherish the thought that Christ is their Companion, a holy awe, a sacred joy, will be felt by them amid all their trying experiences and all their tests. They will learn how to pray as they work. They will be educated in patience, kindness, affability, and helpfulness. They will practice true Christian courtesy, bearing in mind that Christ, their Companion, cannot approve of harsh, unkind words or feelings. Their

17

words will be purified. The power of speech will be regarded as a precious talent, lent them to do a high and holy work. The human agent will learn how to represent the divine Companion with whom he is associated. To that unseen Holy One he will show respect and reverence because he is wearing His yoke and is learning His pure, holy ways. Those who have faith in this divine Attendant will develop. They will be gifted with power to clothe the message of truth with a sacred beauty. {CEv 16.1}

[CyberGuy]

On a side note. Today on facebook we learned that Sandy Roberts SECC newly elected president received her GC folder with the voting materials. Maybe that is a good sign.

[CyberGuy]

Also the Pacific Union President has said that This fight is with the Pacific Union and the GC not with SECC and the GC as Sandy Roberts is a Pacific Union Delegate not an SECC delegate. Nothing in the GC bylaws can prevent her from voting as a delegate of Pacific Union Conference.

The plot thickens.

[CyberGuy]

GC Fall council meetings is Monday. Nothing we say here will change ANYTHING. We just have to wait and see what happens.

[CyberGuy]

Those who support W.O., frankly, are sounding more and more radical and outspoken every day. Their tone is alarming. We see the fruit they have brought about, open rebellion, trash talking leadership. If for no other reason, I am more convinced than ever from these actions alone, this is a movement God cannot bless.

When SECC voted to ordain women Ted Wilson made it clear that only the Union can ordain women. It was then that first Columbia Union then Pacific Union conference voted to Ordain women in accordance to GC policy making it legal for women to be ordained. Ted Wilson countered at the GC meetings with a prepared Statement he had the council vote on that the GC would not recognize these women of these unions as Ordained.

Ted Wilson knew the Unions were correct that only the Unions could ordain women.

Since then Netherlands (Holland) ordained their women.

Italy moved to ordain their women.

German voted to Ordain their women but then reversed it until after the 2015 GC session which German made clear if the world church would not ordain women Germany would ordain women at that time.

China has ordained their women pastors for decades now.

So yes the churches are following the rules Ted Wilson set forth that only a Union can authorize ordaining of women. That is being done.

North West Pacific Union will ordain women after the GC Session in 2015. Lake Union said they would vote on that after the 2015 GC session.

I predict that even if the GC votes to not allow womens ordination which I expect will happen most of the NAD and Europe will ordain their women. China has already as I stated.

This is called open Rebellion. I will state that when conferences started to ordain black pastors within a white conference this was called rebellion as well. When SECC voted to pay women the same as men this was called rebellion as well because the NAD had not approved it.

Since when is it rebellion to do the right thing. I think the word rebellion is going the establishment of the church policy.

Many think that not doing what the church authorizes is going against God.

Paul preached that it was not necessary for greeks to circumcised to join the church. Jews disagreed even up to the time of Pauls arrest. That was going against the law of Moses and GOD as far as the jews were concerned.

Going going against what Ted Wilson wants is not rebellion against God. Ted Wilson may be an elected official of the church but he is human and as a human he could be wrong. Do we just sit back and fold our hands and do nothing even when he is doing something we know is wrong.

Many here seems to think that way. Many think that openly saying Ted Wilson is wrong is being disrespectful of leadership. I say again. Ted Wilson is wrong and the growing movement is spreading to right a wrong that has within our chu8rch policy for decades.

In 1881 the GC in Session voted to Ordain women. FIVE men on the GC Administative council voted to table that vote.

So in fact the GC in session already voted to ordain women.

[ClubV12]

Of course Ellen White never revealed her thoughts on ORDAINING women Pastors, which is the issue we face. "..prepares workers, both men and women" is an oft repeated quote. When used in the context of support for womens ordination, it's misleading and irrelevant.

As are referrences to ordained women Pastors in China. The China Church isn't even a part of the world Church in any official capacity. The ordination standards are in no way compatible with or authorized by the world Church. Those standards vary widely across the nation. In many cases "ordination", so called, is carried out by a legal body recognized by the Chineese Government which is NOT Seventh-day Adventist! In other cases, the local Church simply picks someone who is doing a good job, like teaching Sabbath School class. Actually, I love that last part, it's very "early Christian" style. But hardly a fitting example for the world Church ordination process today.

Ellen Whites first child was born in 1847. Shortly afterward she had to give that child to friends to raise so she could continue to travel and do her appointed work. That would also be the case for her other children. It was a great trial for her to see others so intimately involved in raising her own children. But the work of a prophet cannot be likened to the work of a Pastor or anyone else. It is strictly "Special Forces" duty that requires extraordinary sacrafice at times. Normal rules don't apply!

[ClubV12]

Cyberguy repeats a typical claim heard from the W.0. camp,

"So yes the churches are following the rules Ted Wilson set forth that only a Union can authorize ordaining of women. That is being done."

No, they are not.

They are not following the greater law nor are they following the spirit of the law. The greater law that applies is that the Unions will work in harmony with G.C. Clearly, many are not doing this.

This is EXACTLY the kind of work JUDAS did, make whatever inference you want there. But the principles are identical. He would very subtly introduce conflict and controversy into the discussions and thus lead the apostles into confusion. He constantly found "loop holes" in the law to exploit and justify his actions.

The issue here is no longer ordination, it is outright rebellion and disdain for the authority of those appointed by God over the Unions. By this fruit alone, those with spiritual discernment will be able to see what spirit drives W.O.