SooutheasternCalifornia elects female Conference President.

[CyberGuy]

At some point the NAD will have to be restructured to come into compliance and under the authority of the General Conference. That time will come. The root of this problem lays at the door of the leadership of NAD.

The NAD voted already that a conference president can be a women. Then Ted Wilson had them reverse their vote.

Seems the GC lawyers told them they are out or harmony with their own bylaws.

The problem is this. The Union bylaws permit a female conference president while the NAD and GC bylaws do not at this time. However the NAD sympathy is with SECC on this point as MOST Unions in that NAD are leaning towards ordaining their women pastors. They just need a Division meeting to change their bylaws to permit that.

[Tom Wetmore]

Cyberguy, you keep making statements as if they were facts. Many of your statements are misleading, even outrageous. I suspect your just repeating what you've heard from the W.O. camp without stopping long enough to verify any of it or consider how ridiculous it sounds.

An approach that works well for used car and snake oil salesmem, as well as those who would incite a riot.

...

Club, the same could be said about things you post. I would say that there is often a lot of blind repetition of stuff that circulates for fact around here. Personally, I am inclined to remain silent if I do not have personal knowledge of the matter or cannot find a reliable source that refutes the error.

As moderator, my suggestion to you is that unless you have actual facts yourself to refute what he has posted, the more acceptable approach is to simply ask where he got his information or how he came to whatever conclusion he made. Or do the homework yourself and search for the facts so you can speak with something to back up your accusation of falsehood. Otherwise your words are as empty and meaningless as you accuse his of being.

The sentence I highlighted above is not acceptable as it is attacking the character and integrity of another.

[ClubV12]

Tom, I accept your reproof, you are right, I apologize. Personal attacks are out of line.

As to one of many specific issues concerning misleading statements: The G.C. has NEVER voted to ordain women. Such a statement is not only outrageous, it is grossly misleading. It has never happened in the history of our Church.

Many issues are suggested for discussion and consideration for the G.C. Many issues get tabled along the way and never come up for discussion.

[Green Cochoa]

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa

CyberGuy: It should be noted that while EG White was raising her kids she did not have a single vision from God. After her kids were raised she started having the visions again and wrote most of her books.

Raising ones kids is a no higher calling from God. BUT after that is done then God has other callings for women.

Green Cochoa: This is patently false, but I am curious where you got this error.

Mrs. White most certainly did have visions while she had small children.

Saw that in a documentary about Ellen White on Hope Channel. Narrated by an Australian. Ellen White did not have visions for many years during the young years of her children. She feared the gift of prophecy was taken from her but as soon as her children were older and did not need he constant care the Visions returned.

That is where I got that info.

[Guest arnie]

Hi Everyone! Here's the thing. Ellen White was an ordained pastor by the Adventist Denomination. That's a fact. So now, what does the denomination do in regards to other women in the church? To not ordain women into the church could seem inconsistent with church history. It seems so incredibly rediculous. What say you?

[CyberGuy]

Conference Credentialing Records in the Review and Herald

Ellen White's name is not found in lists of Michigan Conference credentialed ministers prior to 1871. (See, for example, lists published in RH, May 31, 1864, May 28, 1867, and May 26, 1868.) She was first issued ministerial credentials on February 10, 1871, by the Michigan Conference:

"Moved and voted, That Sr. Ellen G. White receive credentials from this Conference."—RH, Feb. 14, 1871, p. 69.

Her credentials were renewed by the Michigan Conference annually thereafter through 1887.[1] The 1886 report was introduced with the words: "Your committee on credentials and licenses would present the following names of ordained ministers for a renewal of their credentials the ensuing year." (Ellen White was not listed in the Michigan Conference report for 1888.)

[Tom Wetmore]

She was listed under the General Conference after that. One needs to also check the Yearbook listings.

[CyberGuy]

She was listed under the General Conference after that. One needs to also check the Yearbook listings.

Listings in the Seventh-day Adventist Yearbook & General Conference Bulletin

The first listing of ministers in the Seventh-day Adventist Yearbook was in 1884. Ellen White was listed under both "General Conference" Ministers and "Michigan" Ministers. The listings appeared the same in 1885, 1886, and 1887. In 1888 she was listed under "California" Ministers, as well as under "Michigan" Ministers and "General Field" Ministers. She was also listed under "Ministers" (not Licentiates) in the "Alphabetical List of Laborers."

Beginning in 1889, all the workers were listed alphabetically, as well as by territory, with letter codes inserted to indicate whether the worker was (l) licensed to preach or (m) an ordained minister. Ellen White was listed under "General Conference" Ministers only (not "Michigan" or "California") and an (m) appeared after her name in the directory. She was listed the same way from 1890-1894. No yearbooks were published from 1895 to 1903, however, "Workers' Directories" were published in the General Conference Bulletin.

In the 1895/1896/1897/1898 Bulletins, Ellen White was consistently listed in the "Workers' Directory" with the code for "Minister" (m) in the absence of any separate coding for ordained ministers in the directory, as well as appearing in the list of "General Conference" Ministers. In the 1899/1900 Bulletins, the Ministerial Directory listed (m) for ordained minister and (l) for licensed minister. Ellen White was listed with the (m) code, and in the list of "General Conference" Ministers.

In the 1901/1902 Bulletins, the codes were not used, but a distinction between Ministers and Licentiates was made in territorial listings. Ellen White was listed in the General Conference "Ministers" list rather than the "Licentiates." No directory was published for 1903, but she was granted "ministerial credentials" from the General Conference by action reported in the General Conference Bulletin, Apr. 14, 1903, p. 216.

In the 1904 Yearbook, Ellen White was listed in the Ministerial Directory and with "Ministers Under the Direction of the General Conference." There was no separate coding for ordained ministers in the directory. In the 1905/1906/1907/1908 Yearbooks, she was listed in the Ministerial Directory and with Ministers listed under "Laborers Engaged in General Work and in Mission Fields, Under the General Conference." Again, there was no separate coding for ordained ministers in the directory.

In the 1909/1910/1911/1912/1913 Yearbooks, Ellen White was listed in the Ministerial Directory and with Ministers under "Laborers Engaged in General Work Under the General Conference" (with no separate coding for ordained ministers in the directory).

In the 1914/1915 Yearbooks, Ellen White was listed in the Ministerial Directory and with Ministers listed under "General Laborers Holding Credentials From the General Conference" (with no separate coding for ordained ministers in the directory).

[ClubV12]

We've been over the Ellen White was ordained issue countless times on this web site. It's NOT a "fact", it's a well disputed saying that refuses to die. People just don't want to understand the nuances of the circumstances.

The G.C. has spoken on this issue and cleared it up, but then, more and more people don't want to listen to the G.C. anyway. No surprise here, old news.

Don't drag the PROPHET into this!

Start a new thread on the subject if you want, like we don't have enough of those already...

The issue is ORDINATION, not Pastoring a Church, which Ellen White never did by the way.

[Guest arnie]

Club V12, My goodness, I must have pushed your button. Stop sounding so superior and condescending. There is a copy of EG White's ordination document. I do have it. Is that a forged document? If that's true, then I've been misinformed. Maybe you could explain "the nuances of the circumstances". How did the GC clear this up? I have to confess, I don't spend alot of time on this web site, so I could have missed this one. You write, "Don't drag the prophet into this". H.m.m.m., but she is the founding mother prophet of this church and has set an example for other women to follow, you know, just in case God does call them to serve? Ordination may not mean Pastoring a Church, but on the other hand, maybe it does.

[ClubV12]

arnie, I've seen a LOT of threads on THIS website over this issue. Do a search before you start making outrageous claims about this or that being a "fact".

Start a new thread on the subject, otherwise, this thread will dissolve into yet another major discussion with the same old tired arguments.

Your position disagrees with the White Estate, thats really all that needs to be said.

[Tom Wetmore]

We've been over the Ellen White was ordained issue countless times on this web site. It's NOT a "fact", it's a well disputed saying that refuses to die. People just don't want to understand the nuances of the circumstances.

The G.C. has spoken on this issue and cleared it up, but then, more and more people don't want to listen to the G.C. anyway. No surprise here, old news.

Don't drag the PROPHET into this!

Start a new thread on the subject if you want, like we don't have enough of those already...

The issue is ORDINATION, not Pastoring a Church, which Ellen White never did by the way.

Yes the issue is still ordination. What do the credentials issued to EGW after 1884 say? What do the official records Cyberguy has noted list her as? (By the way, James White likewise never pastored a church.)

Yes we have been over this many times. It is a fact that is little disputed. Yes much effort has been expended by a very few opposed to WO to minimize, interpret, and explain away the obvious facts. But the recorded facts remain. She was repeatedly issued ordained minister credentials and listed among the ordained ministers of the Church. Depends on who, or what, at the GC you are willing to believe. I for one believe my own eyes that have seen the documents in question sitting right there in the White Estate vault and the GC Archives.

[ClubV12]

I agree with the White Estate, you and many others don't. I'm not going to argue the case, minds are already made up, nothing will change. You've seen the evidence pro and con and reached a different position on the subject.

It happens...

I too believe my own eyes, having seen the very same documents you have. Whats that "prove"? One of us is wrong. I'll go with the scholars at the White Estate.

[Enabled]

Isa 3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

Just a thought, is this a negative or a positive statement of scripture?

Spoken at a time of apostasy.

What was the purpose of the papers of ordination given to E.G. White? To empower and send forth or to permit.

Enabled

[ClubV12]

To permit, she needed a license to work. The G.C. didn't have "prophet documents", they used what they had in this highly unusual setting. Even crossing out the word "ordination" on one of the documents. I don't know why they bothered, frankly, she herself and everyone else knew her calling was directly from the Lord. She didn't need, never requested, had no personal use for papers. They were required by law in some states and countries and it was necessary for her to be paid for her work.

She was going to do her work, as a prophet, regardless of the "paper work", but the paperwork removed some hindrances to that. In the same way she NEEDED to be married considering the time in which she lived to avoid hindrances.

[Johann]

Originally Posted By: CyberGuy

On a side note. Today on facebook we learned that Sandy Roberts SECC newly elected president received her GC folder with the voting materials. Maybe that is a good sign.

Many of those delegates would have voted for anything in a dress to further the cause. She hasn't been made President as much as she has been made the poster child of the issue du jour.

Why are you feeding the drama queen?

[Johann]

The issue is ORDINATION, not Pastoring a Church, which Ellen White never did by the way.

Ellen G White did more pastoral work during her visits to Norway than anyone else had done before her. She visited church members and reorganized the church in Christiania.

She probably did much more pastoral work than many males have done who are ordained today.

[Guest arnie]

ClubV12,

You say, " The very same documents you have. What's that prove"? One of us is wrong".

Are you going to believe what the White Estate tells you or what you actually see? We will probably never agree on this subject so it's useless to pursue. I understand and accept your position

As Christ followers, . We are cautioned in Ephesians 5:3, "Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace." May God Bless, Arnie

[CyberGuy]

ClubV12,

You say, " The very same documents you have. What's that prove"? One of us is wrong".

Are you going to believe what the White Estate tells you or what you actually see? We will probably never agree on this subject so it's useless to pursue. I understand and accept your position

As Christ followers, . We are cautioned in Ephesians 5:3, "Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace." May God Bless, Arnie

Here is what ClubV12 is referring to.

Ellen White's ordination creditials

I have to admit it has been a long time since I have seen anything noteworthy on SDANET. But this post is rather stunning. SDANET has had a discussion on the ordination credentials of Ellen White, which they have posted on their at issues page here. A person inquired of the White Estate if Ellen White had been ordained. The answer was no she was not ordained though she was given the ordination credentials probably because they were the highest recognition the church could give since they did not have "prophet credentials". Of course the whole reason that most Traditional SDA's don't want women's ordination is because of the Biblical prohibition against women having authority over men. What an amazing disconnect! A prophet even a female prophet would have far more authority over men than an ordained Pastor (assuming the definition used by Adventists where a prophet is defined like an Old Testament prophet see fundamental belief 18). But read for yourself William Fagal, Associate Director Ellen G. White Estate as he proves that logic is for others, not the White Estate.

Dear Brother Mutambirwa,

Thank you for contacting the Ellen G. White Estate. Mrs. White was not an ordained minister, though she was granted the credentials of an ordained minister, which sometimes results in confusion on this point. From 1871 onward various organizations in the church issued her ministerial

credentials (typically they were valid for two years at a time, so they needed to be renewed). The printed form for such credentials says that so-and-so (fill in the blank) is an ordained minister of the Seventh-day Adventist church. I'm sure this has led some people honestly to conclude that she was ordained. But in some cases on Mrs. White's credentials, the word "ordained" was neatly struck out. In 1909 a "Biographical Information Blank" that Mrs. White filled out for the General Conference asked "If ordained, state where, when, and by whom." Her answer on this line was an

X, the same answer that appears on the question about remarriage. She had not remarried after her husband's death, and neither had she ever been ordained.

So why was she given the credentials of an ordained minister? I can only guess, but my guess is that the church wished to recognize her contribution officially. It had no "prophet's credentials" (and it still doesn't), so it gave her the highest credentials it had, recognizing that they were not a

perfect fit hence the occasional crossing out of "ordained"). She never functioned as an ordained minister--never baptized, officiated at communion services or marriages, organized or disbanded churches, presided at business meetings of the church, etc. In her prophetic role, she functioned for more

than 25 years (1844-1871) without any credentials at all.

I hope this will help to resolve the question for you. Let me know if I may be of further service. Thank you for writing, and God bless!

William Fagal

Associate Director

Ellen G. White Estate

12501 Old Columbia Pike

Silver Spring, MD 20904-6600 U.S.A.

[Enabled]

To permit! Agreed!

Not to prove equality, nor to call her to ministry. She was ordained of God as a prophet and "much more" in her own words, and only because there was not a man that the LORD had chosen willing to stand, though Ordained (called) of God. If there were more women today like Mary then there would be more men like Christ ready to stand as the needle to the pole. Unfortunately there are to many that have gone to the world for counsel, consider the gender equality movement and its effects on morality today.

We are Son's of God but always in subjection to Christ though he too is a Son and willingly subjects himself to his Father, though equal in his inheritance.

Happy Sabbath to all.

[CyberGuy]

Here is an example of a prophetess in the bible.

Story of Deborah Judges chapter 4

She told a man how the Lord wanted him to run the war. He refused to go unless she came with him. She told him she would go but because of that the honor would go to a women.

The point is that a women was giving orders to a man. True she was relaying the orders from God but is not that what an Ordained minister does. Giving people instructions from God.

Chapter 4

4:1 And the children of Israel again did evil in the sight of the LORD, when Ehud was dead.

4:2 And the LORD sold them into the hand of Jabin king of Canaan, that reigned in Hazor; the captain of whose host [was] Sisera, which dwelt in Harosheth of the Gentiles.

4:3 And the children of Israel cried unto the LORD: for he had nine hundred chariots of iron; and twenty years he mightily oppressed the children of Israel.

4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.

4:5 And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment.

4:6 And she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of Kedeshnaphtali, and said unto him, Hath not the LORD God of Israel commanded, [saying], Go and draw toward mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun?

4:7 And I will draw unto thee to the river Kishon Sisera, the captain of Jabin's army, with his chariots and his multitude; and I will deliver him into thine hand.

4:8 And Barak said unto her, If thou wilt go with me, then I will go: but if thou wilt not go with me, [then] I will not go.

4:9 And she said, I will surely go with thee: notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; for the LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. And Deborah arose, and went with Barak to Kedesh.

For the rest of the Story and the Fastastic Victory and how Sisera was killed by a woman read on from Judges 4:10

[Gregory Matthews]

ClubV12 said:

Quote:

She didn't need, never requested, had no personal use for papers. They were required by law in some states and countries and it was necessary for her to be paid for her work.

Do you really believe that during the lifetime of EGW, the 1800s and early 1900s that EGW was required by the law to have a credential?

Please support this idea with citations to the law.

Do you believe that secular society thought that during that period of time EGW and the SDA Church was so important that they needed a law as to her credentials?

I am dumbfounded at that thought!

Do you also believe that the SDA Church would not have been able to have paid EGW a salary without her credentials? How so? Do you suggest a law in this regard?

I think that you show a lack of knowledge as to the law in the time of EGW.

I think that you also show a lack of knowledge as to the income and its source that EGW did receive.

[Gregory Matthews]

William Fagal of the White Estate says:

Quote:

So why was she given the credentials of an ordained minister? I can only guess,. . .

Well, he is honest. He has nothing objective to support his thoughts. He has pulled them out of thin air.

And we are expected to take them at face value?

O.K. Well, he may be correct? Who knows.

[Gregory Matthews]

In a letter that Fagal wrote, he lists a number of things that he says EGW never did and are functions of an ordained minister. Well, throughout our history we have had many ordained ministers who never did any of those.

In fact the functions that Fagal lists are not considered to be the most important of an ordained minister. Those that are considered more important EGW did perform.

EGW had a grandson who spent his life working for the White Estate. He was an ordained minister. Yet, in his role with the White Estate, he did not perform what Fagal tells us that EGW did not do. Should we deny that her grandson was not a real ordained minister?

Fagal's thoughts are not consistent with SDA practice.

[Tom Wetmore]

Spot on, Gregory.

I could identify quite a few men, some with offices at the GC, who have ordination credentials, that have never pastored a church. While I cannot say for sure, I doubt many of them have ever baptized anyone. One man I know personally who fits that category was recently ordained simply because he asked to be. He had no pastoral experience or education. He has worked for the Church for a long time and speaks regularly before groups of members at meetings and in churches with regard to his area of responsibility. His job does not require being a minster, and in fact many within that function for the church in that area are not.

Many have observed that the continued ordination of men in this category is a slap in the face, an insult, to any woman with years of pastoral experience that has baptized many. And it is insulting to all of us who have long struggled and advocated for their ordination. It makes a mockery of ordination and denigrates it to a meaningless gesture.

As you have correctly pointed out the "logic" conveyed in Bill Fagal's opinion about EGW's credentials likewise makes a mockery of ordination. It apparently doesn't mean much after all. So what is the big fuss about now!

This does highlight a concern that has been troubling me of late. It seems to me that those against WO are undermining and even rejecting God's call to EGW by the extraordinary lengths that are taken to distinguish EGW's situation, and explain away her credentials and even some of her direct statements about women being pastors.