Why are deacons ordained and..

[Stan]

Why are deacons ordained and Personal Ministry Leaders, or Treasures not?

[Gregory Matthews]

At one time Treasurers were ordained.

[Stan]

Yes, if you mean Conference Treasurers, but what about local Church Treasurers?

[Gregory Matthews]

I did not mean local treasures.

[Tom Wetmore]

It is as if you were eavesdropping on a conversation I had this week at the office about what I thought Biblical ordination was.

As I understand it, the NT church simply recognized and appointed individuals to a specific task or purpose. There wasn't any magical induction ceremony conferring upon that person the necessary gifts to accomplish it. Nor was it an ordination for all time and all purposes. There was a simple recognition that God had so gifted that person already for the task at hand and God's blessing was invoked upon them to go and do it. Simply stated, they were appointed according to their gifts with God's blessing.

With that in mind, the conversation focused on how broadly that could be practiced. Each and every function or task should be accompanied by the practice. And each time a person changes to another position or location the people should surround that person with ordaining affirmation and an invocation of God's blessing as the begin to serve in that new capacity or location.

I do not think it is appropriate to ordain a pastor so broadly that they are expected to be qualified to do all things for the church for all time and all places. A young pastor being ordained should not be ordained assuming they are automatically fitted for leadership, or to minister to all people under all circumstances. Ordination should be local and specific only to the field in which they will being now serving, unless the pastor is specifically being sent elsewhere. If that pastor shows leadership potential and is asked to serve in a leadership role, a new ordination should be done. If that pastor is called to serve in a new territory, same thing.

[ClubV12]

That makes sense Tom. It seems to me that the current ordination process, of Pastors, is that it gives them authority to speak for the Church anywhere in the world. Whereas a Head Elder has no authority beyond his local Church.

Are your suggestions meant to limit a Pastors authority to speak on behalf of the Church to a local or regional zone? At least in some cases, if I understand you correctly.

[Stan]

Is there a reason why the should not be?

Ordination is A confirmation that we recognize that God has called them to serve.

Thoughts?

[ClubV12]

My hesitancy would be along the lines of making it to common, but I'm not sure that applies.

[Stan]

I come from the "Every Believer is a Minister" thinking..

When a group of kids feel like, and others are convinced, that they should go to Cuba, or any other place, to do a mission projects, we should lay our hands upon them, pray for them etc etc

The current WO issue did not start out as such, the discussion was how do we ordain female deacons. (deaconess)

[ClubV12]

Hmmm, in your view there would be little or no difference in ordination for a Pastor or for a Pathfinder.

As Seinfield would say, "Not that thats a bad thing".

Might be a GOOD thing! My larger concern is with the Churches heavy reliance on educational titles. I am less and less impressed with PhD, Dr of this or that, Master, BS's or whatever as I discover that principles and truth are readily available to anyone who takes the time to actually read the Spirit of Prophecy. After all, mans words if of any value, echo the words of God. And to do that, you don't need a PhD, or ordination.

I appreciate good education, I believe it is needful to our work in many cases. I just fear we put WAY to much emphasis on it. Perhaps, in the same way we do with ordination.

[Tom Wetmore]

That makes sense Tom. It seems to me that the current ordination process, of Pastors, is that it gives them authority to speak for the Church anywhere in the world. Whereas a Head Elder has no authority beyond his local Church.

Are your suggestions meant to limit a Pastors authority to speak on behalf of the Church to a local or regional zone? At least in some cases, if I understand you correctly.

The idea that the call to to ministry is to the world as the basis for ordination to the whole world is simply not born out in reality. Very few pastors ever leave their home territory. Most serve out their entire career in their country of origin

Also, the idea that it is about authority is not really the issue. Ordination is about service. (That is why the headship argument is of little value.)

[Tom Wetmore]

The NT concept is common. It is simply appointment. EGW said that too much importance was placed on ordination.

[ClubV12]

To me the authority issue is important in this respect.

There are several people who attend my Church that are not members, yet they insist they are Seventh-day Adventists. All the while denigrating the Church at every turn. Hence, some insight right there on why I am so adamant about support for the G.C., by the way.

Anyway, it really bothers me that these people, in Sabbath School and on Church property speak as it were "for the Church". There have been major disagreements over who has that authority within the Church.

[debbym]

was there any distress over a male in the church touching a female for the ordination service?

we put our hands on people in need of prayer and pray over them earnestly.

kind of an ordination of them as being in special need, and setting them apart for prayers for divine grace to meet their need. people who are dying and seek healing are touched by anointing and prayed for in this way.

biblically it was future kings who were anointed and dedicated and consecrated, not the dying.

when a person is ordained for divine service i think the same applies, they are being prayed for because of themselves they cannot do anything, and they are in need of the Spirit upon them to fulfill service to God and man. it is acknowledging God has placed His Spirit on them to fulfill a task, but they must have more strength to continue to do even more.

if we put our hands on each other in prayer more often, holding one another up as helpless in themselves to do anything for God, and asking for the strength and power of the Spirit to fill them mightily, would we not have more laborers and more of God's working among us.

[Stan]

If we do not believe a person is called to serve a position why would we want them there?

It would be like saying one part of the body is more important than the other. We need the complete body.

We should pray before each meeting to be lead of God.

Just a thought... not a deal breaker.

[ClubV12]

I thought one of the attributes was to call someone to service and then WAIT for verification from the Lord that said service is acceptable.

Like an evangelist has to show a certain number of baptisms or meet certain goals. Yeah, that sounds weird and is just filled with "human" reasoning. But there is something to it. So, just being called by the Church to be a Sabbath School teacher, the Church might want to wait for a time to see how the person does in that job. Before making the committment to ordination. Seems to me this was a basic principle the early Church employed, they didn't just select anybody for anything. In some cases they had to prove themselves worthy of the calling.

[phkrause]

Great points Stan.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I think it would be weird to have an "ordaining" of everyone who holds a local church office. It's not like they're in that position forever... it's a year at best, sometimes not even that...

(yes, I realize some church officers, such as treasurer or church clerk, can be in that office for a number of years...but ordaining them won't help their abilities)