NAD Expected to Release Ordination Report

[Gregory Matthews]

For the latest, see:

http://www.atoday.org/article/2136/news/...on-study-report

[ClubV12]

It's unfortunate this article once again points to ordination of women in China as being relevant to the discussion. It is not. The standards for ordination and how it is carried out in China are apalling at best. Many of those ordained are done so by a government agency appointed by Obama,,, uh,,, I mean the Government party in power.

Pretty much the same thing we might have here someday. A religious power appointed by the Government who allows "ordination" based on approval of National laws, not Church laws. Hardly an example I would cite if I promoted W.O.

[Tom Wetmore]

It's unfortunate this article once again points to ordination of women in China as being relevant to the discussion. It is not. The standards for ordination and how it is carried out in China are apalling at best. Many of those ordained are done so by a government agency appointed by Obama,,, uh,,, I mean the Government party in power.

Pretty much the same thing we might have here someday. A religious power appointed by the Government who allows "ordination" based on approval of National laws, not Church laws. Hardly an example I would cite if I promoted W.O.

That is simply not true. Yes, some have claimed it as fact, but those directly involved in China have refuted it as being untrue.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

Many of those ordained are done so by a government agency appointed by Obama,,, uh,,, I mean the Government party in power.

Your reference to Obama indicates your willingness to play with the truth. Yes, I know you changed it.

But, your statement about a Chinese government agency doing the ordination is also playing with the truth. It is no more factual than is your statement about Obama.

[ClubV12]

Not playing with the truth at all Gregory.

The General Conference met with the Government appointed agency that represents Seventh-day Adventists in China. Our G.C. carries no weight of any kind as it concerns Seventh-day Adventists in China. That same government approved agency also ordains some Seventh-day Adventist Pastors. Seventh-day Adventist Churches, per se, do not exist in China. They are carefully regulated "congregations" with pretty tight government control over their authority beyond the immediate walls of the building they meet in. Nor can anyone outside those walls tell that individual congregation what to do.

I think it's pretty neat how in spite of all this the Chinese Church is doing well. It's very basic, no doubt word of mouth plays a big roll in how things get done. Jobs, like being a Pastor, are given to those who show an aptitude for such a position and are willing to take it.

I see it as model all Seventh-day Adventists may have to work as at some point in time. When our institutions collapse, our schools close, some of our Churches are closed. Governement restrictions are imposed. A "grass roots" how are we going to get this done mentality! Good for them.

[olger]

The gc allowed women elders because of a few extreme cases where men were languishing in prison. They granted this exception with the warning that "Extreme caution" would be used in women elders.

The liberals in the church completely ignored the "Extreme caution" injunction, and are trying to use 'women elders' as a prybar to force the church to the next step. That doesn't sound like extreme caution, but rather extreme coercion. It just ain't right.

Blessins,

G

[ClubV12]

Women Elders, being the hot potato that it is, I've been trying to avoid. But your spot on Olger. Ordaining women Elders and Head Elders have opened the flood gates and here we are!

Sister White was very practical, recognizing and allowing for extraordinary circumstances. Later in life, you see it in her writings, she gave up trying to explain every little detail of how people misinterpreted her counsel. She just forged ahead ignoring such debates if at all possible.

Because, you can't cure stupid... :)

[olger]

Forsooth,

`G

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

The gc allowed women elders because of a few extreme cases where men were languishing in prison. They granted this exception with the warning that "Extreme caution" would be used in women elders.

What are you talking about? Please document so I can understand.

[olger]

1975 Spring Meeting approves women’s ordination as deaconesses. Also permits women to be ordained as elders if "the greatest discretion and caution" is exercised. Urges women to become Bible workers, or even assistant pastors, but notes that the church will grant them only a missionary license.

According to dialogue at the 1990 GC session in Indianapolis, China was used as an example where men were not available to lead a few congregations due to incarceration for their faith.

Hope that helps,

G

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

According to dialogue at the 1990 GC session in Indianapolis, China was used as an example where men were not available to lead a few congregations due to incarceration for their faith.

I would like to read more on this. Could you give me a denominational Internet posting where I could read more about this?

Thanks.

[olger]

Looking. That was before mainstream internet -- I was there in person.

[Gregory Matthews]

Well, the denomination has Internet postings that date back to the 1800s of some material.

So, the basis of your statement is your memory of 23 years ago. O.K. Probably not totally accurate. In any case, as it is your memory no one can rebut it. So, not a real strong basis of support.

[Gregory Matthews]

I have a problem with the comment that seems to say that females were allowed to be ordained as Elders at the 1990 General Conference due to males in China being in prisons. My problems were increased when I was told that the basis of this is a personal recolection of someone who was present at that session.

So, I decided to see what the Internet has to say about this. I decided to go to one of the strongest advocates that females should not be ordained--Dr. Pipim. Here is what he has said about this:

Quote:

In response to their pressure, church leaders at the 1975 Spring Council meeting approved the Biblically compromising practice of ordaining women as local elders in the North American Division if “the greatest discretion and caution” were exercised.

Later, they succeeded in persuading church leaders at the Fall 1984 Annual Council meeting to reaffirm and expand the 1975 decision, voting to “advise each division that it is free to make provisions as it may deem necessary for the election and ordination of women as local elders.”

Thus, even though the 1975 provision departed from the New Testament model of church leadership that assigns to men, not women, the headship roles of elder or pastor, and even

though the world church had not formally approved of the provision at a General Conference session, in 1984 the ordination of women as elders was extended from North America to the world field.

NOTE: Dr. Pipim does not trace the ordination of female Elders to a 1990 GC Session.

He traces it to a 1975 administrative decision of Spring Council that was related to North America. It was not related to anything in China. Yes, it urged great caution.

Dr. Pipim then goes on to say that in 1984 each Division was allowed to ordain Elders. Again, there is no mention of China or of males being in prison.

No one who knows Dr. Pipim would ever say that he was a liberal who advocated the ordination of females. Such a statement would be laughable.

I will suggest that his words demonstrate that anyone who tells us on the basis of a personal experience that the 1990 General Conference allowed the ordination of female Elders due to males in China being in prison is simply wrong.

This demonstrates to me how twisted our memories of an event of 23 years in the past can become and should not be relied upon.

[ClubV12]

We often hear about men being prosecuted for "crimes" involving various issues with social reform in China, rarely do we hear about women.

The latest reports SEEM to indicate that men are not at substantial risk by their involvement in Church related matters in China. Not so fast, sounds like a good "party line" but I don't buy it at face value.

If I were a man in China, based on it's history of prosecution of men for social activities, I'd think twice about being involved to deeply with a Church. I suspect that remains true today. The political scene there can change overnight and you know it was worse 20 some years ago. Why put yourself, a man, at risk if you don't need to?

We DO know the government keeps a close watch on the "Church" there and has an official Government agency for "Church" related matters. Including ordination for some Adventist Pastors. Simple fact is, China does not enjoy religious freedom to anywhere near the degree we take for granted. The Adventist Church as an organization is not even allowed to exist!

Based on the history of prosecution women would be at less risk, tommorow or the next day, when the Nation suddenly decides to "crack down" on "unauthorized" congregations. And starts arresting Adventist Pastors for some trumped up politically based reason.

This is just common sense in a country so closely watching over congregations. It's also common sense those involved in Church issues would give a good report toward the Government. Don't poke the dragon with a stick...

[Johann]

So the ordination of women was needed in China?

[nuff sed]

It is my understanding the NO women have been ordained by the denomination in China. I can verify this within a few more days. Nuff Sed

[ClubV12]

My research agrees with that 'nuff. The main reason the G.C. does not recognize ordination there is because there are no consistent standards of what qualifications are used as well as who carries it out. In some cases it is done by a group authorized by the "State", a Government agency. In others it's strictly a local Church process.

To some degree this is similiar to the problem we see here with various Conferences in the USA and elsewhere moving ahead. Who determines what standards/qaulifications are required for ordination? Every Conference for themself? The G.C.'s position is we need consistent qualifications to some degree for the world Church that applies to all Conferences. I think that is wise.

[olger]

It is my understanding the NO women have been ordained by the denomination in China. I can verify this within a few more days. Nuff Sed

Anticipating your report, Nuff.

[nuff sed]

ClubV12 is essentially correct... According to an official of the China Union the Seventh-day Adventist church of China is different from the rest of the World Church. There are several thousand women ordained pastors in China...ordained locally. The less I say about this the better lest something I say be misunderstood by those who have actual control of the church there. Nuff Sed