Adventist Church in North America recommends affirmation of men and women for or

[olger]

Agreed. If 10/10 people agree that homosexuality is morally right, that does not make their opinion correct. It is the Bible that we must look to as the guide to truth and doctrine.

G

[Tom Wetmore]

I guess my question for you is whether you would be asking any of those questions if the decision had gone the other way, in the SPD or NAD?

I am not so sure it is entirely an old vs. young distinction. It may come down to that in a fairly homogenous demographic. But in a culturally diverse area it would be more likely to break on cultural/ethnic lines.

Two things you are not accounting for. The first is that the study group makes a report to the Executive Commtttee based on thorough study of all the evidence. That there is a majority of academics should be a plus since that is where the expertise can be found. Would you trust your car to an amature teenage backyard mechanic? Or would you prefer someone that has the experience, tools and know how of working on cars for years? The other is the response of those hearing that report under the influence of the Holy Spirit. They may well have gone in undecided, or of a different opinion. But if they had an open mind, open to learning and open to the guidance of the Holy Spirit, outcomes can overcome cultural/ethnic/generational bias.

And finally it is not really a doctrinal question so much as a policy issue. That is why traditon and culture have factored so heavily.

[ClubV12]

Policy agreed, but it's important enough to consider in the range of doctrine!

Yes, I would be asking the same questions regardless of my personal position BECAUSE...

It was clear from the Spectrum article that the final report did not fully reflect what "they" (leadership) considered to be the majority opinion. Thats a red flag. Another red flag was that they would wait for the young people to catch up with their position. Sounds like: Creeping compromise, whether it is or not, thats what is sounds like.

Well it's not my car in question, the assumption being that the academics are the experts. And I do appreciate the gift of higher education and what they are able to bring to the Church. HOWEVER, they are not necessarily any more "expert" than the guy without a high school education who just simply reads the bible and it says what it says in plain english. And Ellen White concurs on that point.

Holy Spirit? Thats a tough one because I worry that the term is overused or misunderstood to various degrees. It comes down to HOW one THINKS the Holy Spirit is working, or not working. I believe God is very practical and in divinity working with humanity. We have our part to do and the Holy Spirit is not going to impart knowledge to us in some spiritual way that has already been made readily available. Through His chosen channels.

The word, the SOP, the counsel of the brethren, the leadership of those appointed over us are examplse of these channels of light. If we dismiss one or more we may well have blocked the Holy Spirit from being ABLE to bless us with understanding.

As the Jews blocked themselves from greater light when they rejected John the Baptist, Jesus had nothing further to offer them.

I am concerned that NAD may have placed themselves in this very condition. By ignoring the spirit of the law and looking for the absolute legal aspect in great detail to justify their actions, have they rejected a channel through which the Spirit would like to work? How would one know, any of us know? And yet, I believe that is a valid question for all concerned. Us as individuals, the Divisions, the G.C. itself. Are following the spirit of the law, or searching to see how close we come to the edge of the cliff without falling off?

God doesn't need more sacrafice and rivers of oil, He wants obediance from the heart.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

We have our part to do and the Holy Spirit is not going to impart knowledge to us in some spiritual way that has already been made readily available. Through His chosen channels.

What bothers me the most about positions taken against WO, is that others peoples spiritual experience is questioned over and over, by those that do not know the individual. The 2nd, and to me more important, is the belief that certain individuals feel confident in their ability to speak for both God and the Holy Spirit.

Quote:

The word, the SOP, the counsel of the brethren, the leadership of those appointed over us are examples of these channels of light. If we dismiss one or more we may well have blocked the Holy Spirit from being ABLE to bless us with understanding.

Does the above quote mention that the H*S, was sent to be our guide? Saul/Paul was killing in the name of God and had to be struck down to get the message! God speaks to us, even when we do not listen, just as we do with our own children. Lets stop this limiting of any part of the God Head.

Quote:

Sounds like: Creeping compromise, whether it is or not, thats what is sounds like.

Really, I would suggest some of these post sound more like a creeping compromise to Catholicism.

[ClubV12]

"Holy Spirit is not going to impart knowledge to us in some spiritual way that has already been made readily available."

This is a very sound biblical principle that has applied since the time of Adam. It's about YOU, me, NAD, the G.C., every follower of God who ever lived. For instance if you have known sin in your life, something you know you should do and have not done it, you put yourself in danger of delusion and error.

Moses was stopped on the way to the Pharoah, by a threatening angel. Note that the angel did not tell Moses WHY he was stopped. That was left to Moses to figure out and Moses did remember, he had neglected a known duty and thereby had cut himself off from the full protection of God.

We absolutely can limit God and we do it all the time by the choices we make. Do you believe your prayers go any higher than the ceiling when you have known sin in your life? Something you refuse to do or give up? Don't count on your prayers going anywhere, God will not be trifled with.

"You have a form, and the prayers of many of you do not rise any higher than your head. What do we want? Repentance of your sins. Confess your sins before God and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out when the time of refreshing shall come and He shall send Jesus [see Acts 3:19, 20].

Sermons and Talks, Volume 1 pg 177

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Do you believe your prayers go any higher than the ceiling when you have known sin in your life? Something you refuse to do or give up? Don't count on your prayers going anywhere, God will not be trifled with.

If God will not trifle with a 'known' sinner, then all is lost. If our prayer is not going above the ceiling, then how will God ever hear our prayer asking forgiveness? Is that the way you would treat a child? Are we children of God? Nope, God is not limited by us, we limit ourselves. Please, do not go down the road that God is a selective listener, His ears are always open. We can and do shut our ears God.

You avoided my comment about Saul/Paul. He thought that God had given him a purpose in life, but God did knock him down and straighten things out. God had not been limited in reaching Saul/Paul.The limit was on Saul's side. If the H*S is not going to impart/expand knowledge to us, regardless of where else it may be present, then you have an entirely different view of the H*S's role on earth.

[ClubV12]

Would you rather receive instruction from the Holy Spirit through the counsel of the brethren or be struck blind by a burst of light while your walking down the road?

Do you think David would have preferred to receive instruction from the Lord prohets or ignored the prophet and wait for four of his sons to die?

Do you think Samson would have preferred to listen to those in authority over him or died blind and captive?

Your call CoAspen, if you choose to ignore the channels of light the Holy Spirit would prefer to use, He can still reach you alright! The easy way or the hard way, your call.

I suggest it is possible NAD has placed themselves in a situation where they have ignored some of the preferred channels of communication by the Holy Spirit. As a result, this is NOT going to end well for NAD no matter what the decision may be. It did not end well for Paul, David or Samson, they all paid a price for their actions.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Please, do not go down the road that God is a selective listener, His ears are always open

"[The people] cry out because of the pride of evil men, but He does not answer.

Surely God will refuse to answer [the cry which is] vanity (vain and empty—instead of abiding trust)"Job 35:12-13 AMP

Parenthesis brackets theirs' LHC

God cares!

[Kevin H]

ClubV12: You need to realize that I honestly believe that the Bible teaches women's ordination. That I view you're arguments on this pont like how we would view a Sunday keeping pork eater who believes that the dead go right to either heaven or hell and looking for the rapture, and that you are trying to inforce your understanding on the rest of us.

If there were women ordained, you have the right to look for a congragation with a male pastor to maintain your religious freedom. However what you desire to do is prevent the rest of us from having the freedom to follow what we honestly understand the Bible to teach because it dissagrees with your understanding.

[CoAspen]

I will continue to repeat.....I ain't going to limit the H*S, what ever it takes to 'reach' me! Lightning or whatever, I'm open. Christ went to look for one lost sheep, I do not expect Him to give up on me!

[CoAspen]

Again...cut and paste....read in context or even go to the commentaries. Your partial texts are not on point to the post being discussed.

[ClubV12]

Kevin, you missed the point. People have been talking a lot about everyone having the Holy Spirit and yet everyone coming to different opinions. And not just on W.O., the same could be said for:

Feast keepers, futurists, those who feel the organized church is Babylon and the list goes on.

YOUR prejudice is showing, Kevin and CoAspen. I'm not trying to force or promote my opinion on W.O. on you or anybody. I'm recognizing PRINCIPLES involved with all this talk of who has or doesn't have the Holy Spirit "on their side". When both the North AND the South are saying they do. How you gonna whats up?

Heres the point, AGAIN, SLOWLY, TRY LISTEN THIS TIME: IF you are harboring KNOWN SIN in your life and have refused to take action to correct it, you limit the ability of the Holy Spirit in your life. You place yourself in darkness.

Now NAD has consistently placed itself in a position of denying the authority of the G.C. working guidelines policy. Thats a fact, not an opinion. They have excused this by pointing to the "law". I SUGGEST, SUBMIT, INFER, MIGHT BE, MAYBE,,, get it KEVIN? SUGGEST vs FORCE? Chip still on your shoulder?

I SUGGEST NAD has placed themselves in a bad situation as a result.

[ClubV12]

Kevin, you need to realize that you can honestly be in delusion and think you are being led by the Holy Spirit. Honestly, sincerely, with deep feeling. It's called delusion because you don't know your in it.

You must leave "feeling" out of it and deal with the bibilical principles without bringing your preconceived ideas to the search for truth.

Note: This post is not trying to "FORCE" anything or anyone, Kevin. It's just a simple reality check concerning bible study.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

Holy Spirit is not going to impart knowledge to us in some spiritual way that has already been made readily available.

It is the work of the HS to take the knowledge that is available to us in the Bible and teach and convict us. Without the action of the HS in that respect, we would never on our own obtain a knowledge of what the Bible says.

[LifeHiscost]

Thanks.

See Psalm 51:5.

You have stand in the sun just right.

`G

One has to have received the gift of humility to be able to use that Scripture with honesty, not to mention that you mis-spelled "Son" in your sentence above.

God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

Agreed. If 10/10 people agree that homosexuality is morally right, that does not make their opinion correct. It is the Bible that we must look to as the guide to truth and doctrine. G

at a minimum of a couple of times!

God cares!

[ClubV12]

Gregory, what happens to the Holy Spirit guiding us when we fail to respond to His promptings? What happens if we continue to refuse to follow the light? What happens to the promptings of the Holy Spirit when we ignore some known duty?

These should not be difficult questions for any Christian...

Here is TRUTH, absolute TRUTH:

"The Holy Spirit is not going to impart knowledge to us in some spiritual way that has already been made readily available."

Don't expect God to work a miracle to make up for your laziness to read, heed, discover and learn "truth" He has made readily available. THAT is the sin of presumption.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Sometimes people think that the "knowledge" *they* have and believe was given by the Holy Spirit, should be the *same* for everyone else. I don't think that's necessarily the way the Holy Spirit works.

I don't think the Holy Spirit "imparts" the same knowledge to every person in the same way. If he did, then, yes, there would be "consensus," ....but good grief, Charlie Brown! Everyone would be preaching to the choir...

[Tom Wetmore]

Gregory, what happens to the Holy Spirit guiding us when we fail to respond to His promptings? What happens if we continue to refuse to follow the light? What happens to the promptings of the Holy Spirit when we ignore some known duty?

These should not be difficult questions for any Christian...

Here is TRUTH, absolute TRUTH:

"The Holy Spirit is not going to impart knowledge to us in some spiritual way that has already been made readily available."

Don't expect God to work a miracle to make up for your laziness to read, heed, discover and learn "truth" He has made readily available. THAT is the sin of presumption.

Club, you keep saying the same thing and pointing the finger of judgement only one direction, toward the position with which you disagree. Talk about presumption... To be open to the leading of the Holy Spirit includes being open to the possibility that you may be wrong.

Consider this. Is it really the NAD that is refusing to follow the light? What if the Holy Spirit has been gently prompting this issue throughout Adventist history and it has been the repeated stifling of this idea of women's equality in ministry that has been the light the GC has repeatedly refused to follow, starting with the 1881 resolution that seems to have been long forgotten, the diminished role of women after EGW died, the burying and forgetting the recommendations of the Mohaven study recommending WO in the 70's, the stifling of and refusal to release and publish the study finding in favor of WO by its own Biblical Research Institute in the 80's, the published support of a majority of the professors from its Seminary in the 90's. Yet the GC voted against following that light twice in the 90's and now in the last decade refuses to recognize the Holy Spirit leading in China toward WO where there was no outside pressure against it. And so it continues...

How sure are you which direction the Holy Spirit is leading? It seems to me that the consistent, albeit painfully slow, progressive leading has been toward WO, not away from it.

[Tom Wetmore]

Good point, Pam. I am increasingly impressed that the Holy Spirit, like a gentle rain, falls on everyone. Each responds from the position they are in. (Sadly some curse the rain and put up their umbrellas.) The Holy Spirit is motivating attention to this issue, it seems from all directions and among many diverse people, not all of them even religious. I have been amazed that the increased attention to WO is among other faith groups beyond our own. And more generally, it is women's basic rights being given attention in Muslim countries, and even in more secular situations. The steady progress of improved rights and opportunities for women in so many ways in the time since Adventism began is undeniable. I think that is a God thing.

Yet there continues to be great resistence and setbacks to progress. But if it is of God it cannot be stopped.

[ClubV12]

Truth is not based on feeling Tom. It is not based on how sincere you may be Kevin. It is not based on some idea that the Holy Spirit must be falling around us like a gentle rain because everything seems to be going your way. It is not based on what you see, hear, smell, feel or even your conscience.

I have nothing more to offer you on how to arrive at truth. If your present position is based on "feels good", "deeply sincere", then it is no wonder you are unable to grasp the principles of how truth is discovered. Your already in deep delusion!

[phkrause]

Than Club it seems to me that your saying that every Christian is in the exact same place in there walk with Jesus! Don't you believe that there are many good Christians that at this time of there walk, they still except Sunday over Saturday as there Sabbath? I believe as the HS works within there lives and impresses them, they will or just might come to the understanding that Saturday is really the true Sabbath as the Bible states! and not as man says? So in light of that, I believe as we grow in our walk we will, with the guidance of the HS, come to a better understanding of WO. Because as I've mentioned before, we have many good people on either side of this issue. So to say to those that don't see it our way, that they are in deep delusion, makes no sense!

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

Gregory, what happens to the Holy Spirit guiding us when we fail to respond to His promptings? What happens if we continue to refuse to follow the light? What happens to the promptings of the Holy Spirit when we ignore some known duty?

Probably all of us have refused to respond to the promptings of the Holy Spirit. When that happens, the HS continues to attempt to reach us.

If we continue to refuse, there comes a time when the HS has failed to reach us.

Probably all of us have ignored some known duty. The HS continues to attempt to reach us.

It is not an easy thing to grieve away the HS.

[Neil D]

Kevin, you missed the point. People have been talking a lot about everyone having the Holy Spirit and yet everyone coming to different opinions.

[snip]

Heres the point, AGAIN, SLOWLY, TRY LISTEN THIS TIME: IF you are harboring KNOWN SIN in your life and have refused to take action to correct it, you limit the ability of the Holy Spirit in your life. You place yourself in darkness.

Now NAD has consistently placed itself in a position of denying the authority of the G.C. working guidelines policy. Thats a fact, not an opinion. They have excused this by pointing to the "law". I SUGGEST, SUBMIT, INFER, MIGHT BE, MAYBE,,, get it KEVIN? SUGGEST vs FORCE? Chip still on your shoulder?

I SUGGEST NAD has placed themselves in a bad situation as a result.

So, according to you, because we have known sin in our lives, the Holy Spirit's work, in our lives, is limited...and we place ourselves in more darkness....

Because the NAD has known sin in their lives, the Division has placed itself in such a position that they not only are working against the GC but they also are working against the Holy Spirit...The result is that there is the likely possibility that there will be divine retribution against the whole NAD for this harboring of known sin...

Is the above a relatively accurate reflection of what you are saying?

Because if it is, then I question your logic.

There is so much judging on so many levels that I just don't know where to start....so, I will let someone else, better than I attempt to show you where your thinking is faulty...

[ClubV12]

PK, to him that knows to do right and does it not, that is sin.

Korah was deeply sincere, he felt it was the right thing to do, to challenge the authority of Moses. Because the Holy Spirit had been falling like a gentle rain on all the people and everyone one of them was holy. So it was OK to ignore Gods chosen leadership, to chart their own path, because they were tired of waiting. They had waited long enough. They were being led by the Holy Spirit, it felt right, they were sincere, they were holy, everyone one of them.

They absolutely believed they were being led by the Holy Spirit...