Adventist Church in North America recommends affirmation of men and women for or

[Tom Wetmore]

Truth is not based on feeling Tom. It is not based on how sincere you may be Kevin. It is not based on some idea that the Holy Spirit must be falling around us like a gentle rain because everything seems to be going your way. It is not based on what you see, hear, smell, feel or even your conscience.

I have nothing more to offer you on how to arrive at truth. If your present position is based on "feels good", "deeply sincere", then it is no wonder you are unable to grasp the principles of how truth is discovered. Your already in deep delusion!

I'm not talking about feelings, Club. Not sure how you thought I was. Perhaps it is more so for you than me? I am speaking of the evidence I have seen and experienced personally. But you cannot deny your senses and conscience since that is how you as a human experience anything. Try as you might, you cannot separate your emotions from the rest of you and how you see and understand anything. God reaches us through our emotions as certainly as through our intellect. Consider how frequently Scripture uses references to emotion in our connection and response to God.

As for your dismissiveness about the Holy Spirit as a gentle rain, ( often phrased as "latter rain") that is a very common metaphor of the HS and how God works straight from Scipture. See Isaiah 55:8-11, for example. Rain does not fall just on select and receptive soil and the crop that is ready for it. It falls everywhere. It even waters the weeds. But each plant and creature responds according to its unique character and type. Some respond beatifully with only a little, some require flooding. And some are destroyed by it.

I likewise have nothing more for you, since you seem to be so hardened in your view that nothing seems to penetrate through your intractable resistence to any and all evidence contrary to your POV.

[Tom Wetmore]

PK, to him that knows to do right and does it not, that is sin.

Korah was deeply sincere, he felt it was the right thing to do, to challenge the authority of Moses. Because the Holy Spirit had been falling like a gentle rain on all the people and everyone one of them was holy. So it was OK to ignore Gods chosen leadership, to chart their own path, because they were tired of waiting. They had waited long enough. They were being led by the Holy Spirit, it felt right, they were sincere, they were holy, everyone one of them.

They absolutely believed they were being led by the Holy Spirit...

I think you are wrong about Korah thinking they were lead by the HS.

[Neil D]

PK, to him that knows to do right and does it not, that is sin.

Korah was deeply sincere, he felt it was the right thing to do, to challenge the authority of Moses. Because the Holy Spirit had been falling like a gentle rain on all the people and everyone one of them was holy. So it was OK to ignore Gods chosen leadership, to chart their own path, because they were tired of waiting. They had waited long enough. They were being led by the Holy Spirit, it felt right, they were sincere, they were holy, everyone one of them.

They absolutely believed they were being led by the Holy Spirit...

Based upon your assessment, Korah, a sincere man who had a relationship with God, was killed because he chose an incorrect path....Is this a correct reflection of your assessment of Korah?

And if it is, then you make God into an insecure God who appoints whom He desires, and Who is NOT interested in a two way relationship...You make God out to be arbitary, harder to find in a relationship, and very judgemental if you don't follow Him....That is NOT the God that I worship...and if this IS the SDA God, then deservedly He needs to be abandoned.....

No, your assessment of Korah is wrong....because it reflects badly upon the Character of God...God is a patient Teacher......

[phkrause]

PK, to him that knows to do right and does it not, that is sin.

Exactly!! So than who judges that?? Only God has that right to judge who knows right from wrong!.

[Neil D]

PK, to him that knows to do right and does it not, that is sin.

Korah was deeply sincere, he felt it was the right thing to do, to challenge the authority of Moses. Because the Holy Spirit had been falling like a gentle rain on all the people and everyone one of them was holy. So it was OK to ignore Gods chosen leadership, to chart their own path, because they were tired of waiting. They had waited long enough. They were being led by the Holy Spirit, it felt right, they were sincere, they were holy, everyone one of them.

They absolutely believed they were being led by the Holy Spirit...

You are not lea of the Holy Spirit when you "treat the Lord with contempt". numbers 16:30

Now, I know that treating the Lord with contempt is open to

intreptation, but humility is NOT a characteristic of contempt.....Your assessment is totally off, Club....and that just a cursory reading...

No, what you are describing is more in line with Joshua 22...

[ClubV12]

I will wait upon the Lord to work through His appointed agencies to resolve this issue of W.O. I know for sure that is safe biblical and SOP ground to be on. And I will honor the G.C. when that decision is made.

Unlike many who have already made it clear they could care less what the G.C. decision is. They will continue to ordaian women regardless. And they will do this claiming they are empowered by the Holy Spirit to do so!

This is not an issue anybody has to guess at, the counsel on the authority of the Church, how we are to respect that, how we are to submit to it is crystal clear.

[Tom Wetmore]

Interesting that it is crystal clear and unchageable to you who it was not so even to EGW. She at various times said the GC was acting on e side of God and other times she indicated it was not. She recognized that these were fallible men susceptible to error. She never recognized the authority of the GC as absolute and above question.

[ClubV12]

I'm not the one claiming to be led of the Holy Spirit. And I'm not taking YOUR claim that you are as proof of anything.

Come let us reason together.

What REASON do you have to ignore the requests of the G.C.? What reasons do you have to be in open defiance of their authority? By what authority does NAD reject and excuse their disregard for the working guidelines of the G.C.?

These claims of being led by the Holy Spirit are without merit if they cannot be backed up by solid reasons from the scripture or the SOP that justify ignoring the authority of the Church at the highest level. As NAD has done.

Ellen White certainly DID recognize the G.C. decisions as absolutely binding, in heaven and on earth. We are told to set aside our opinions in favor of their decision. To suggest we can ignore that authority, Tom, is grossly misleading.

"When, in a General Conference, the judgment of the brethren assembled from all parts of the field, is exercised, private independence and private judgment must not be stubbornly maintained, but surrendered. Never should a laborer regard as a virtue the persistent maintenance of his position of independence, contrary to the decision of the general body . . . . God has ordained that the representatives of His church from all parts of the earth, when assembled in a General Conference, shall have authority."

Christian Leadership

[Tom Wetmore]

Quite simply the authority of God, the Holy Spirit, trumps the authority of any human authority. We all understand we must obey God rather than man. We do not have a papal system that stands in the place of God. Quite the opposite in fact.

It seems that you have set yourself up to decide if it is of the Holy Spirit or not. The evidence has been presented, repeatedly. But you seem to forget it, overlook it, ignore it, deny it, dismiss it as without merit or any reaction that allows you to avoid a change in your thinking.

Yes, of course EGW said that about the GC. But she some years later stated quite emphatically that it had been quite some time since she held that view. At that time she said she no longer saw the authority of God being with them. What about now? Should we blindly swear allegiance no matter what? What do people do with a growing conviction that the Holy Spirit is in fact leading them to a different conclusion?

I am quite certain that those claiming the Holy Spirit's guidance are doing so with a great deal of soul searching and prayer. I have witnessed that personally. I have noted the resulting spirit of the people involved. It was not the spirit of rebellion or defiance or anything of the sort that you, who was not there, seem to want to make it out to be. Being open the the leading of the Spirit is being taken very seriously. It is not just some convenient platitude to sanctify ones own opinion.

I likewise believe from Christ's own words about doubting the Holy Spirit that it is a very serious matter to resist and deny the work of the Holy Spirit. One should have a more sure reason than simply invoking the authority of a man made organization, tradition or set of rules.

Once again I am reminded of the wisdom of Gamaliel. If this is not of God it will fail regardless of what we do. But if it is of God we cannot stop it and trying to do so will put us In a position of fighting against God.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

If this is not of God it will fail regardless of what we do. But if it is of God we cannot stop it and trying to do so will put us In a position of fighting against God.

And that was the politically correct thing to say at the time, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

"...that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel, and that all this assembly may know that the Lord does not deliver by sword or by spear; for the battle is the Lord’s.... "1 Samuel 17:46-47 NASB

God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

they were holy, everyone one of them.

Their major mistake that disabled their ability to discern the Truth.

"For all that is in the world—...and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. "1 John 2:16 NKJV

God cares!

[ClubV12]

"When, in a General Conference, the judgment of the brethren assembled from all parts of the field, is exercised, private independence and private judgment must not be stubbornly maintained, but surrendered. Never should a laborer regard as a virtue the persistent maintenance of his position of independence, contrary to the decision of the general body . . . . God has ordained that the representatives of His church from all parts of the earth, when assembled in a General Conference, shall have authority."

Christian Leadership

In 2015 the General Conference will be assembled and will be duly represented by men from around the world. God has ordained that this assembly shall have authority. Not NAD and not Tom, who must set their opinions aside and come into harmony with the highest authority on earth.

Already we see the evidence that there is no intention of setting their demands for approval of W.O. aside. Already we see they fully intend for the rebellion to continue if the G.C. denies their position.

And some suggest the Holy Spirit is behind this? The delusion, the darkness is very deep.

[Tom Wetmore]

Where light is and where darkness is may not be as you think it is.

[CyberGuy]

Would you rather receive instruction from the Holy Spirit through the counsel of the brethren or be struck blind by a burst of light while your walking down the road?

30 years ago the council of the brethren was to pay women less than men for doing the same job. Some conferences like SECC voted to pay women the same as men for doing the same job long before the church was forced by the Marykae lawsuit to pay women the same as men for doing the same job. They were told they were out of policy and rebels then as well.

Now it is accepted practice and no one says we should pay women less then men for the same job. My point is what is accepted today was not in the past.

The church voted to ordain women as elders three decades ago. That also was a novel idea and very controversial. Now no one thinks twice about that.

So lets say that women are ordained eventually. 20 years later people will wonder how our church could have been so backward and prejudiced against women back in the dark ages of the church.

[Neil D]

Already we see the evidence that there is no intention of setting their demands for approval of W.O. aside. Already we see they fully intend for the rebellion to continue if the G.C. denies their position.

And some suggest the Holy Spirit is behind this? The delusion, the darkness is very deep.

How would you know if the Holy Spirit IS behind this? Is 40 years of going thru the channels and repeated being delayed for an answer by bureaucratic shuffling evidence that this is not going away soon? Is it not evidence that the Holy Spirit IS waiting out those whose love of bureaucracy is stronger than the love of the Lord? Is it just not right to give evidence thru policy that men and women are the same and equal in all areas of ministry?

If this is of God, no amount of religious bureaucratic delay/additional committees of study will stop the Holy Spirit....

[ClubV12]

"God has ordained that the representatives of His church from all parts of the earth, when assembled in a General Conference, shall have authority."

This isn't talking about a committee meeting or a Church board. This is the General Conference, like the one the early Church had, with Paul, Peter and men representing Churches from around the world. In a session to consider and rule on Church law. There is no appeal, there is no higher authority on earth. What so ever they bind on earth is bound in heaven.

To ignore their authority and claim you are doing so by the power of the Holy Spirit is blasphemy. It's heresy. It's a direct attack on the throne of God. It's a very serious matter.

I am blown away, that already, the forces are gathering to abolish the authority of the G.C. if the ruling doesn't go the way the W.O. supporters want it to.

Finally, it should be clear to EVERYONE who has been following this issue exactly where the W.O. supporters stand. Their true position is now revealed. It is shameful, it is heart breaking.

[lazarus]

This isn't talking about a committee meeting or a Church board. This is the General Conference, like the one the early Church had, with Paul, Peter and men representing Churches from around the world. In a session to consider and rule on Church law. There is no appeal, there is no higher authority on earth. What so ever they bind on earth is bound in heaven.

You are kidding right? Your knowledge of the early church needs to be refreshed.

Acts 11: 1 The apostles and the believers throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. 2So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcised believers criticized him 3and said, “You went into the house of uncircumcised men and ate with them.”

Who directed Peter to preach to Gentiles?

What was the opinion of those in Jerusalem when they heard?

Did Pater wait for agreement from the "GC" to do what God has called him to do?

Acts 15:1 And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question.

What was the attitude of Paul as regards to circumcision?

Did he wait for the "GC" to understand the mind of God before he did the will of God?

Why was the dissension and dispute?

What do you think would have happened if the Jerusalem counsel would have affirmed their position?

Your passion for the authority of the GC may place you out of step with what God is doing.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

To ignore their authority and claim you are doing so by the power of the Holy Spirit is blasphemy. It's heresy. It's a direct attack on the throne of God. It's a very serious matter.

Very, very, very RCC dogma.

[ClubV12]

Three things happened in the setting you describe Lararus.

1. Peter, a widely recognized prophet had a divine revelation which he related to others.

2. Pentecost, a widely recognized and accepted series of miracles indicating acceptance of the Gentiles.

3. A General Conference session. So that ALL the Churches, being duly represented, could come to a universal agreement and acknowledgement of Church Law. Confirming Peters divine dream and confirming the accounts of pentecost.

My "passion" for the authority of the G.C. is based solely on the inspired words of the prophetess of God, Ellen White. To reject the authority of the G.C. is to reject the authority of Ellen White.

[lazarus]

I think you have missed my point. Peter and Paul did not wait for agreement from Jerusalem to do what God had called them to do. God does not wait for a vote by a committee to do what He has to do. Often committees catch up with what is happening on the ground.

Based on your reasoning Paul and Peter should not have done what they did.

Quote:

My "passion" for the authority of the G.C. is based solely on the inspired words of the prophetess of God, Ellen White. To reject the authority of the G.C. is to reject the authority of Ellen White.

I thought a woman should not have authority over a man?

[olger]

I thought a woman should not have authority over a man?

It was God's message, not Ellen's.

OG

[ClubV12]

Where is this modern prophet, this Peter of today, with a divine revelation that will provide the clear convincing evidence God has accepted womens ordination?

Where are these acts of Pentecost that will clearly show Gods will as it relates to women being authorized for ordination by God?

Where is this ruling by the highest authority on earth, the General Conference, that verifies the prophets divine message and the fruits of the pentecost?

These, not one, are to be found. All that remains is the annoucement of anarchy. NAD and individuals, like yourself Lazarus, like Tom, openly, boldly, declaring they will NOT accept the authority of the G.C. in session.

Whew,,, people, draw the line, choose a side. Those who will side with Korah, step over the line. Those who will side with the highest authority on earth, separate yourselves from the rebells. Lest you be partakers of their sin.

[lazarus]

It was God's message, not Ellen's.

But He placed EGW in authority, right?

[ClubV12]

NOT over the G.C. He didn't!

Even the prophet was subject to and acknowledged the authority of the rulings and Church law those men of God declared, when in session and duly represented by Churches from around the world.

EVEN the prophet could not ignore their authority, which was higher than hers!

[lazarus]

These, not one, are to be found. All that remains is the annoucement of anarchy. NAD and individuals, like yourself Lazarus, like Tom, openly, boldly, declaring they will NOT accept the authority of the G.C. in session.

I am honored to be included in the same sentence as Tom and the NAD. No anarchy really, just movement. Progress in God's work has often come at the hands of movements who have been called names and vilified but in time folks have seen it was the hand of God. I am sure there were similar railings on the "message boards" in Jerusalem when they heard about Peter and Paul's antics.

Godly men defied the Union and GC in my home country demanding equality for pastors. Time and time again God works and the bureaucracy follows.

Your acceptance of what Peter and Paul did is with the benefit of hindsight. The Bible says there was much dissension. I wonder what side you would have been on?

Quote:

Whew,,, people, draw the line, choose a side. Those who will side with Korah, step over the line. Those who will side with the highest authority on earth, separate yourselves from the rebells. Lest you be partakers of their sin.

Rather than the ground opening up there will be another strongly worded but all too lengthy statement and then we'll move on to the next question........ homosexuality.