Adventist Church in North America recommends affirmation of men and women for or

[olger]

Originally Posted By: olger

It was God's message, not Ellen's.

But He placed EGW in authority, right?

Incorrect. That's where the ProWO crowd is missing some truth. A messenger must give the message, it did not originate with them. Ask Isaiah.

And, the fact that a person is a messenger does not make them an ultimate authority. The mailman that delivers our mail does not have voting power in our company.

The messages that God gave Ellen helped establish leadership in the church - which were men of course. God was starting a movement to receive the torch of truth and hold it up at the Time of the End. That is what we are supposed to be doing, not crying for cultural egalitarianism in the machine. That will cause the machine (church) to forfeit its message. Pride WILL NOT WORK THE WORK OF GOD. You say, well the people who are opposed to ProWO are being prideful. Maybe a few are - I don't know all of them.

But when components of the machinery start focusing on mechanical hierarchery and pushing on doors that God closed in Scripture, it's game over baby.

In summary, it is the prowo crowd that is pushing the issue. It wouldn't even be an issue but for them. Thus the burden of strife is on them. Hope you like the friction.

rejoice always,

G

[lazarus]

Quote:

And, the fact that a person is a messenger does not make them an ultimate authority. The mailman that delivers our mail does not have voting power in our company.

Who said anything about ultimate authority? The ultimate authority of course is God. Do you believe EGW is an authority within the SDA church?

If an IRS agent comes to your company and wishes to conduct and interview, he does not vote either but carries considerable authority and I am sure you will listen what he has to say. He may indicate that you are out of compliance and may require you to make some adjustments. He is conveying a message on behalf of the IRS. His message may be sufficiently disturbing for you to call a tax lawyer. He has authority.

Ellen White is more than a letter carrier.

She was and still is an authoritative voice in the church. If our GC president will quote perhaps more from her that from the Bible in one of his speeches you can see how much authority she has. The reality is quite clear. To suggest otherwise is disingenuous.

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You say, well the people who are opposed to ProWO are being prideful.

Who me? Where did you see that?

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It wouldn't even be an issue but for them. Thus the burden of strife is on them. Hope you like the friction.

LOL. They said the same thing about pastors who wanted to serve in the UK in the 1960 and 70's. "It wouldn't be an issue if you were not making this fuss". If Paul had not preached to gentiles there would not have been "much dissension"

Movement always produces friction.

[Tom Wetmore]

Ger,

Interesting spin-doctoring there about the role and authority of EGW… (Not to mention that when convenient she is merely a messenger, but when necessary she has the status and authority of a prophet…) I suspect that if the one so chosen at our founding had been a man, we wouldn't even be making that distinction to minimize the authority of his words.

You might want to check EGW about the whole process of inspiration. She really wasn't merely a mouth piece or God's pen. She spoke and wrote with authority, because God ordained her to the task she carried out.

[ClubV12]

There is no spin with Olgers observation of the messenger, the prophetess, the one who echoes the words of God.

YOU are the one minimizing her testimony, not Olger, certainly not myself. Her plain testimony is the General Conference, meeting certain conditions she specifies, are the highest authority on earth.

You either believe that message is a direct result of inspiration and she has no choice but to relay it as it was shown her. Or you believe it's merely her opinion.

Choose carefully, because that choice will place you on side of the line of the other in the ongoing, open, defiance of the authority of the G.C.

[CoAspen]

As for me and my house......we choose God, first, last and always. I bow to no one but God. Each person must follow their conscience. I condemn no one for their choice, as it is between them and God. Can't say it any plainer!!!

What will be, will be. Lets all go in peace.

[ClubV12]

If God speaks for the Church, who does He speak through? Lazarus? CoAspen? To whom do we look for guidance, Church law, rules? Every man for himself? No requirements for membership? Any Church, any place, call it whatever you like, no rules?

Thats not how God works. A system where people reject His clearly appointed leaders and structure is the system run by Lucifer. Independance, confusion, separation, is what he specializes in. By rejecting Gods appointed agencies on earth to govern and maintain order within His Church, you worship in the synagoge of the evil one. And you don't even know it, you call darkness light, and light darkness. Anarchy rules and Satan is well satisfied.

[Neil D]

If God speaks for the Church, who does He speak through? Lazarus? CoAspen? To whom do we look for guidance, Church law, rules? Every man for himself? No requirements for membership? Any Church, any place, call it whatever you like, no rules?

Thats not how God works. A system where people reject His clearly appointed leaders and structure is the system run by Lucifer. Independance, confusion, separation, is what he specializes in. By rejecting Gods appointed agencies on earth to govern and maintain order within His Church, you worship in the synagoge of the evil one. And you don't even know it, you call darkness light, and light darkness. Anarchy rules and Satan is well satisfied.

WoW!

The bible says that WE have the mind of God...Yes, Lazarus and CoAspen and Tom speaks for God, as well as you and Olger...and EGW does as well....Along with Wilson, and the Vendons, and the Finleys and Broostras and all of us who are committed to God...dedicated Christians, followers of Christ...

What you don't understand is that all of us, who listen, weigh carefully our evidences and then with time decide as to what/who is right...collectively, yes, the Church collective [GC] can reaffirm what God wants in His church...but that realization is primarily for OUR benefit...a collective dissemination of information...God allows our networking to effectively get the work of this world done....He wants to close and finish this sin problem....If women are carriers of better methods, then let's do it and go home...If one or two or twenty women have leadership capabilities better then men, then let's utilize them and go home....Let's give them the recognition that men have and together, let's go home...

To insist that women have no place of equal worth is foreign to the bible, and even that is recognized by society...and we are better than society....we are of Christ....

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Thats not how God works. A system where people reject His clearly appointed leaders and structure is the system run by Lucifer. Independance, confusion, separation, is what he specializes in. By rejecting Gods appointed agencies on earth to govern and maintain order within His Church, you worship in the synagoge of the evil one. And you don't even know it, you call darkness light, and light darkness. Anarchy rules and Satan is well satisfied.

Wow! The Catholic Catechism could not have said it better! This statement is so far outside the SDA belief system, I don't know what to say. God can only speak to His people through the church(RCC) and our conscience is subservient to the .org(RCC) the Holy Spirit must agree with the .org(RCC). You have outlined the premise of the RCC and applied it to the SDA church!

[ClubV12]

We have the mind of God Neil? So that each one of us speaks for the Church?

Korah said that to Moses... all the people are holy, everyone of them. He didn't want to submit to the authority of Moses anymore than CoAspen wants to submit to the authority of the Church.

History repeats itself, bundles are being formed, sides are being chosen...

[Tom Wetmore]

Would you recognize if you found you had chosen the wrong side...

[ClubV12]

If one is in delusion it will be impossible to recognize anything of spiritual value! This is why it is imperative that feelings, sincerity, even conscience take a back seat to a plain thus saith the Lord.

The authority of the General Conference, when properly represented from around the world and in session, is the highest authority on earth. It is verily the voice of God to man. I think the question you are asking Tom is how does that truth square with Pauls advice that we must obey God rather than man?

A reasonable question, that can be addressed without emotion, feelings, conscience, agenda or a position on W.O. required!

IF the G.C. in session and meeting with the prescribed conditions outlined by the prophetess, makes a ruling that directly violates the unquestioned command and law of God, then we must obey God rather than man.

The elephant in the room, the burning question is: Does womens ordination, for or against, CLEARLY violate a known command and law of God that renders the authority of the G.C. ineffective? The answer is obvious, we have two sides with differing opinions. The issue is NOT CLEAR CUT, therefore it CANNOT rise to the level of violating a known command of God that the body of Christ, that organized Church is in agreement with.

No matter HOW convinced one is about W.O., for or against, I see no alternative but to honor the ruling of the Adventist "Supreme Court". BECAUSE the issue simply is not clearly defined which is WHY the issue is going all the way to the Supreme Court in the first place!

Now some people will absolutely swear it IS clearly defined, some for, some against. If both parties ignore the Supreme Court, we have anarchy, we have war, we have confusion. The ONLY way to maintain discipline, order, unity, is to acknowledge the authority of the G.C. ruling, no matter what that ruling may be. No matter how distasteful it may be.

This is the only safe coarse, to trust that God IS in control of the outcome and it is His will that will be declared.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Quote:

The authority of the General Conference, when properly represented from around the world and in session, is the highest authority on earth. It is verily the voice of God to man.

that sounds awfully pompous... and actually, the first thing I thought of when I just read that last line was, "if that's how God is, and if it's representative of how things are going to be done in heaven, I don't wanna be there..."

[CoAspen]

Ya, that is why I protest so much against that type of thinking. We get a fair amount of 'looky loo's' on these forums and I really hate for them to think that the SDA church is built on that premise, especially those who are dissatisfied with RCC doctrine.

It is not the correct picture of God, part of the reason that Christ came to this earth to dispel the idea that humans could not have a direct connection to God, at all times.

[ClubV12]

I understand this is a tremendous trial for many, if not most. Pride, selfishness, is the most difficult battle a Christian has to overcome. I do not fully understand why God has organized His Church this way, but it has been this way from the beginning, since before the earth was created.

Lucifer wanted to be a part of the counsels of God and he was jealous of Christ being a part of that counsel when he could not. He refused to submit to the authority of the highest counsel in heaven. The counsels of God, his rebellion led to the mystery of sin.

It sounds "pompous" because it IS pompous, in the highest and best use of the word. It is God's plan, not my plan, not man's plan. This is divine instruction given through Moses to the children. Given to us through Ellen White.

That the G.C. has been ordained to be the highest authority on earth, above Kings, Presidents, anyone and everybody, is the divine plan of organization for His Church.

If it sounds to much like the Catholic Church, then the devils counterfit is working just as he planned it would.

Pam, Adam concluded that if Eve could not be with him in the garden, then he would die with her. If you would rather not be in heaven because you don't like the rules, that is your choice. God did not stop Adam, He won't stop you. Free will is ALWAYS the highest law above all else. Had the Father said, I would rather destroy the earth than give up my Son to die, we wouldn't be here. He never asks us to do anything He Himself has not done. All of heaven was emptied when the Father allowed the Son to come here and die in our place.

It is a small thing to honor God by honoring those chosen to protect, to govern, to draw us together as a family. A small thing to honor their authority because the Father has asked us to.

Another way to know the voice of God? "Duty", duty IS the voice of God to man. He calls on us, through His messenger, to honor the authority of His Church. THAT is out "duty", that in itself IS the voice of God, to you personally, to me and to His Church.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I understand this is a tremendous trial for many, if not most. Pride, selfishness, is the most difficult battle a Christian has to overcome. I do not fully understand why God has organized His Church this way, but it has been this way from the beginning, since before the earth was created.

Lucifer wanted to be a part of the counsels of God and he was jealous of Christ being a part of that counsel when he could not. He refused to submit to the authority of the highest counsel in heaven. The counsels of God, his rebellion led to the mystery of sin.

It sounds "pompous" because it IS pompous, in the highest and best use of the word. It is God's plan, not my plan, not man's plan. This is divine instruction given through Moses to the children. Given to us through Ellen White.

That the G.C. has been ordained to be the highest authority on earth, above Kings, Presidents, anyone and everybody, is the divine plan of organization for His Church.

If it sounds to much like the Catholic Church, then the devils counterfit is working just as he planned it would.

Pam, Adam concluded that if Eve could not be with him in the garden, then he would die with her. If you would rather not be in heaven because you don't like the rules, that is your choice. God did not stop Adam, He won't stop you. Free will is ALWAYS the highest law above all else. Had the Father said, I would rather destroy the earth than give up my Son to die, we wouldn't be here. He never asks us to do anything He Himself has not done. All of heaven was emptied when the Father allowed the Son to come here and die in our place.

It is a small thing to honor God by honoring those chosen to protect, to govern, to draw us together as a family. A small thing to honor their authority because the Father has asked us to.

Another way to know the voice of God? "Duty", duty IS the voice of God to man. He calls on us, through His messenger, to honor the authority of His Church. THAT is out "duty", that in itself IS the voice of God, to you personally, to me and to His Church.

sorry, but the one and only authority I submit to, is God. Giving the GC the adulation due to God is not only pompous, but horrendously disrespectful to God.

Men are men, and prone to mistakes and misinterpretations of all sorts. To rely on the GC as God's "voice" is unbelievably naive.

I respect those in leadership positions, and I certainly consider their words, but I don't give away my reasoning abilities...

[CoAspen]

[ClubV12]

"...but I don't give away my reasoning abilities."

Nor do they ask for that. A major tenant of our faith is that we must obey God rather than man. The G.C. has not asked me and I dare say YOU to do anything that violates my conscience or violate a clear command of God. Luther honored and obeyed the leader of his people, the Pope, in so far as he could. Paul likewise honored and obeyed the High Priest, the leader of his people. That is all God ever asked any of to do. At any time in earths history. It is written: You shall honor the leader of your people.

Do you submit to your parents? To the police? To your boss? One to another? To your husband or wife? Submission is not a griveous or hard thing when it is understood in the proper context. If you submit to God, then you submit to what He asks you to do. Love your neighbor, honor and obey your parents, honor and obey the Church board, your Pastor, the Conference and the General Conference. In all cases only if it does not conflict with a clear rule of obeying God above man.

So what "rule" of law is the G.C. imposing on you, Pam, that you reject and deny in favor of obeying God instead? The Seventh day is the Sabbath? Do not lie? Do not murder? Honor your father and mother? Which of these G.C. rules or what other rule will you chose to ignore? What valid reason do you have for ignoring Church Law, as established by the G.C.?

For those who are not a MEMBER of the Adventist Church, your certainly under no obligation to the G.C. because they are not the leader of "your people". Who ever "your people" are, they are not Seventh-day Adventists, because your not a member of that group!

[CoAspen]

I don't know where you got or arrived at your belief. But, I guarantee you are not correct that the GC is speaking for God and must be obeyed, regardless. Can you tell us, how you arrived at that conclusion and did you have any guidance from some person or persons, living?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Who ever "your people" are, they are not Seventh-day Adventists, because your not a member of that group!

WOWSERS!!!! Can't say as I have ever had anyone say that to me before!!!!

[ClubV12]

I don't know if your a member of the Church or not Pam. If not, then the G.C. is NOT a "leader of YOUR people", who ever those people are. There are a number of people in my local Church who are not members. Some consider themselves Seventh-day Adventists, others just like the fellowship, most have no intention of actually joining the Church. For the most part they not only DON'T honor the G.C., they despise it! Openly denigrate it, use vile language to describe it.

The mixed multitude was like that with the Children of Israel, they were for the most part, always a thorn in the side of the Jewish people, who tolerated their antics.

Paul was Jewish, he could not escape who HE was. The High Priest was the leader of his people, he was absolutely commanded by the bible to honor the High Priest.

Make no mistake, membership does in fact have it's privileges. All are welcome, not all are welcome to vote, hold membership, have a say in Church law, hold a Church office.

[Tom Wetmore]

...

The authority of the General Conference, when properly represented from around the world and in session, is the highest authority on earth. It is verily the voice of God to man...

It was the voice of the General Conference in Session in 1881 that voted the resolution in favor of WO. The voice of God... It was 3 men the 3 officers that comprised the General Conference Committee, to whom it was referred that apparently decided not to heed that voice and by most accounts did nothing about it. So how do you reconcile that to your bold declaration about authority?

But let's just stop and think about your view that a vote of the Session is "verily the voice of God". What if the voice is not unanimous? Does that mean that God is a bit equivocal? Maybe uncertain of His own will on the matter? Or is he just not getting through to all the delegates? Which faction represents those who truly voice his will? Careful now, because I seem to recall that you have expressed the view that majorities are not necessarily always right.

Or what if the same issue comes up before successive Sessions and the vote of the Session is on a smaller percentage, a closer margin, the second time? Does that mean that God is slowly changing his mind, softening his position on the issue? Or is he just not getting his message through to all the delegates and the vote is more a reflection of who is in touch with him and who is not? Again I ask, which side of the vote really represents God's voice, verily?

This is not hypothetical. That is in fact how the votes have gone that are related to WO. They were far from unanimous. And they percentage against WO declined the second time around.

I sort of expect God to speak a bit more unequivocally and more emphatically. At least on matter of great importance, like etching things in stone. Maybe, just maybe God isn't quite so adamant about this issue as you are or as you seem to want him to be.

And maybe a patient and long suffering God is willing to wait on his people for 150 years to take the rather obvious hint that He really is OK with women in a significant spiritual position in the Church. That was His choice, after all. He didn't put it to a vote, because we would still be debating whether we could accept a woman as His messenger.

[ClubV12]

If your NOT a member of the Church, what is it to you what the leaders of that people do or don't do concerning Church law?

It's not your problem, you have no say, no vote, are under no obligation toward anyone. Being the "free spirit" and independant that you are, enjoy life. Why get caught up in a dispute that doesn't even concern you?

[ClubV12]

Tom Sister White certainly clairifies her position on what constitutes the voice of God as it concerns the G.C.

She SPECIFICALLY identifies that a man or a small group of men, such as you have outlined in 1881, do NOT represent the highest authority on earth.

This is the trap many fanatics fall into, quoting Ellen White when she said she had no confidence in the G.C. When she said it was NOT the "voice of God".

One must understand the requirements and conditions specificed by the prophetess to warrant their authority as the voice of God.

[Tom Wetmore]

You really do not know what you are talking about. The 1881 Resolution in favor of WO was passed by the GC in Session. That was the larger group. The GC Executive Committee was just 3 men because that was the whole officer group. The denomination was not very big at that time. This was not the group that she spoke against. It was later in time that EGW spoke out against the GC.

[Kevin H]

The General Conference in session said not to eat meat offered to idols. Paul said it does not matter.