Adventist Church in North America recommends affirmation of men and women for or

[ClubV12]

You wrest the scriptures to your own destruction Kevin, more precisely, to the destruction of others becaue YOU know Paul was in perfect harmony with that General Conference!

Wait, your pulling my leg Kevin, this is a good joke,a tricky but accurate comment you make. Now go sit in the corner...

In 1909 Ellen White commented on many aspects of her support for the General Conference. Here is one such sample.

"The spirit of pulling away from fellow laborers, the spirit of disorganization, is in the very air we breathe. By some, all efforts to establish order are regarded as dangerous—as a restriction of personal liberty, and hence to be feared as popery. These deceived souls regard it a virtue to boast of their freedom to think and act independently. They declare that they will not take any man’s say-so; that they are amenable to no man. I have been instructed that it is Satan’s special effort to lead men and women to feel that God is pleased to have them choose their own course, independent of the counsel of their brethren." 9T 257.2

"Uniting with the church, although an important and necessary act, does not make one a Christian nor ensure salvation."

Note her words here as she address' the 1909 General Conference: UNITING with the Church is IMPORTANT and NECESSARY.

[Neil D]

We have the mind of God Neil? So that each one of us speaks for the Church?

Korah said that to Moses... all the people are holy, everyone of them. He didn't want to submit to the authority of Moses anymore than CoAspen wants to submit to the authority of the Church.

History repeats itself, bundles are being formed, sides are being chosen...

There you go, adding words that I never said....I said that we have the mind of God, ...not "We are/have the mind of" the church....We all speak from the best of our minds what God has told us....some of it, once out in the open, is subject to all our wisdom and we collectively come to the best solution as we hear them individually.1 Corinthians 2:15-16

15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord

so as to instruct him?”[a]

But we have the mind of Christ. If God actually does not want us to go a particular direction, we must have faith that God WILL LEAD us....like the Friend that He is....

What is the primary purpose of the GC? Is it not to organize the church for the purpose of accomplishing the Great Commission? or is it to be the ruling body of the church, much like the Pope's papacy? Come on, Club....Tell us what each of the GC departments are for? If not for the completing of the great commission, then what?

You mention Korah having said "all the people are holy, everyone of them." Where is that said in the Bible? I can't find that.....I did find where KOrah was summed to Moses and Korah refused to go...I also see in the same chapter that Korah was "insolent and rose up against MOses". Now, insolent, from the dictionary means- boldly rude or disrespectful; contemptuously impertinent; insulting: an insolent reply. ....Korah and his followers were jealous that they were levites, and not priests or landowners like the other tribes...when summoned by Moses, But they said, “We will not come! 13 Isn’t it enough that you have brought us up out of a land flowing with milk and honey to kill us in the wilderness? And now you also want to lord it over us! 14 Moreover, you haven’t brought us into a land flowing with milk and honey or given us an inheritance of fields and vineyards. Do you want to treat these men like slaves? No, we will not come!”

We are not trying to be insolent, but humble...Some of us are not doing it well, I admit to that...but you keep mentioning Korah, and I keep telling you that the rebellion of Korah was about actively showing contempt for Moses authority. We are NOT showing contempt for anyone's authority, but rather being lead as God sees fit....

and when you say thing like this-

History repeats itself, bundles are being formed, sides are being chosen... are you not being contemptous and rude and judgmental. Isn't this contemptous ?

[Kevin H]

ClubV12, please tell me what Bible verses I am not seeing? In Acts 15 we have the General Conference Statement that the gentile converts were not to eat meat sacrificed to idols. I am not aware of them changing that statement.

We find in Corinthians where Paul says that unless it will cause a brother to stumble, to not to ask if the food was sacrificed to idols or not. That Idols are nothing so food being sacrificed to them is nothing and that if we eat with someone don't ask if it was sacrificed to idols or not but just eat it to the glory of God.

These are the two passages that I am aware of. Please tell me about the passage I'm missing where the General conference modified Acts 15.

[ClubV12]

Kevin I will not be drawn into your game of deception you are promoting over this issue.

I see only two possibilities with your comment:

1. You really are that ignorant and unable to grasp how Paul was in perfect harmony with the G.C., approved of the ruling himself and absolutely supported it the law that people should not eat meat offered to idols.

2. You really do know how and why Paul is in perfect harmony with the G.C. and you have purposed in your heart to mislead and misdirect others. To cause them to believe a lie.

I wonder Kevin, why would you do that? What spirit would prompt such a thing?

[Neil D]

and yet,these are two differing principles, that are espoused by leaders ...One for general purpose, and the other for older Christians who understand what they are worshiping.....

and yet, these can be a hinderance to baby Christians VERY quickly....and someone is NOT in total agreement with the GC....

explain this, Club...please

[ClubV12]

"The idiom "red herring" is used to refer to something that misleads or distracts from the relevant or important issue. It may be either a logical fallacy or a literary device that leads readers or characters towards a false conclusion."

Kevin knows exactly what he is doing and Neil took the bait.

[Tom Wetmore]

There seems to be a sense from what EGW had to say about the role of the General Conference that it should provide counsel but not dictation to the Union conferences and the Divisions. She was not in favor of centralized governance.

Quote:

It has been a necessity to organize union conferences, that the General Conference shall not exercise dictation over all the separate conferences.

[CoAspen]

Kevin asked a question, I read nothing in his posts that gives you justification for your remarks. Just answer. You are attacking the poster instead, what does that say about your frame of mind?

[ClubV12]

CoAspen ask Kevin, he is the one who took something and shrouded it in mystery so as to confuse you, Neil and others.

[Tom Wetmore]

Club, no mystery involved in what Kevin posted. The mystery is why you don't simply read for yourself and know that he is correct. Read Acts 15 And then read what Paul wrote to the Corinthians in 1 Cor. 8, 10 and Romans 14. And then notice the message of James again after that on Paul's final visit to Jerusalem in Acts 21. Both letters were written by Paul after the Jerusalem Council. Notice what Paul wrote about the food offered to idols. It is not the same as the letter written by the leaders in Jerusalem. Right?

[ClubV12]

Your right Tom, there is no mystery at all. Paul was in perfect harmony with his brethren and the general conference.

[Tom Wetmore]

Explain how you arrive at that conclusion.

[ClubV12]

Spiritual things are spiritually understood, Tom.

[scott.t]

I believe ClubV12 is correct when he(?)talks about how churches/conferences/divisions should not openly defy the GC's authority on issues that are not clearly decided in the bible.

What if some churches decided that instead of turning in the tithe to the conference,they would now distribute it among their membership instead. What if whole conferences did the same. The denomination would splinter. If you join a club knowing what they believe,don't get mad when they ask you to follow the rules,its not as if WO is a core belief of the church, like the sabbath.

If enough of the membership believes and works toward change it will happen.

As far as the GC being the utmost authority here on earth,that sounds so wrong.I would be skeptical of letting any corporate group dictate my concience. Show me in the bible or in history for that matter,where a church or government has not become corrupted, bloated and usually inefficient. Its small groups or individuals that seem to keep the truth alive,fighting against the establishment.

Scott

[CoAspen]

Continued evasion......beginning to think you don't have an answer....so maybe you just deny everything...lost in a wilderness....??

[ClubV12]

Paul was in perfect harmony with the General Conference of his time as it regards meat offered to idols, circumcision and sexual immorality.

That General Conference set "Church Law", and sent letters out to all the Churches in the world. Then, as now, the General Conference, when assembled in session, and when represented by men from around the world, establishes, modifies and/or sets Church Law as the need may arise. It is the highest authority on earth for one simple reason, because the prophetess Ellen White has echoed the words of God in declaring that to be the case!

If you don't believe the G.C. is the highest authority on earth, then you don't believe the prophetess. It's not rocket science...

Who, what group, has the authority to set WORLD Church Law? Write that law in a book, send a letter out to every Church ON EARTH instructing them of what they are to do as members of the body of believers known as Seventh-day Adventists?

If there is some Church Law you think violates your conscience, then you must obey God rather than man. And if that means you have to leave the Church, so be it, it's OK to leave. Please do in fact, the Church is better off without you!

[Neil D]

Spiritual things are spiritually understood, Tom.

[Tom Wetmore]

Spiritual things are spiritually understood, Tom.

Then explain your spiritual understanding of this spiritual thing.

That really wasn't an answer to the question. It was an empty sanctimonious platitude that has no meaning without further explanation. Give us the opportunity to see evidence of your spiritual understanding of the matter.

If you don't we must conclude that you simply have no coherent answer or that you prefer to insult us by implying we do not have sufficient spiritual discernment to comprehend it and that your spiritual discernment is superior to ours.

[olger]

All the safeguards that for thousands of years have been in place to protect women have been dismantled by Feminists who see these protections & standards as oppression. They are in fact the opposite. It takes a village to protect women – with both men and women holding each other to high standards of behavior. The differences in how we treat the sexes not only exist; they are essential. We are not equal except in Redemption and our accountability to Moral Law. Nature has no regard for equality, and each one of us is born differently from each other. We are diverse and dissimilar in our roles, talents, physical aspects, intellect, and emotions; and the sexes are inherently different. This is a good thing, made beautiful by cooperation. Feminism makes our differences ugly.

rejoice in the Word,

`oG

[Neil D]

All the safeguards that for thousands of years have been in place to protect women have been dismantled by Feminists who see these protections & standards as oppression. They are in fact the opposite. It takes a village to protect women – with both men and women holding each other to high standards of behavior. The differences in how we treat the sexes not only exist; they are essential. We are not equal except in Redemption and our accountability to Moral Law. Nature has no regard for equality, and each one of us is born differently from each other. We are diverse and dissimilar in our roles, talents, physical aspects, intellect, and emotions; and the sexes are inherently different. This is a good thing, made beautiful by cooperation. Feminism makes our differences ugly.

`oG

What "safeguards" are you talking about?

If women were to be considered as less than a man, then why is it that the 10 commandments are directed at individuals regardless of gender?

How is it that EGW defined ministry by what ministers do, and included women in those behaviors in her writings? If the ministry of ministers, ORDAINED MINISTERS, were satisfactorily done by men, why can't we recognise those same behaviors in women who have done them just as equally and with success?\

When the church seemed to founder on the question of whether or not women could be ordained, Ellen White, in 1895, resolved that issue. She went further as she described why the early Christian church ordained Paul and Barnabas. The principle she expressed has obvious relevance to the question of women and ordination to ministry: " In order that their work should be above challenge, He instructed the church by revelation to set them

apart publicly to the work of the ministry. Their ordination was a public recognition of their divine appointment to bear to the Gentiles the glad tidings of the gospel." [AA, 161]

Truly, Ellen White has fulfilled her mission to the church

by pointing out the scriptural principles concerning ordination. Here, she applies scriptural principles to ministry as defined during the time she saw the Australian experience as a model for the church. She defines true ministry from Isaiah 58 and Isaiah 61:

If men and women would act as the Lord's helping

hand, doing deeds of love and kindness, uplifting the

oppressed, rescuing those ready to perish, the glory of

the Lord would be their rearguard....Of those who act

as his helping hand the Lord says, "Ye shall be named

priests of the Lord; men shall call you the ministers

of our God. [Ellen White, Jan 17, 1901, B7-1901.]

[Tom Wetmore]

The Seventh-day Adventist Church in North America yesterday approved a recommendation from its Theology of Ordination Study Committee (TOSC) that affirms both men and women for ordination to ministry.

http://news.adventist.org/all-news/news/...or%20ordination