Conference Presidents

[Stan]

To me, I am more interested if a Conference President, can increase attendance, increase the number of Church, increase membership then if they are ordained as a Pastor, or if they have ovaries are not.

Please put the sticks and stones down before you reply.

[phkrause]

To me, I am more interested if a Conference President, can increase attendance, increase the number of Church, increase membership then if they are ordained as a Pastor, or if they have ovaries are not.

I'm with you. I've said it a number of times, lets not ordain anyone, they are already ordained by God!

[CoAspen]

[ClubV12]

Well SOME need to be ordained if we are to follow the example of the early Church.

[Haldog]

Well SOME need to be ordained if we are to follow the example of the early Church.

I think an argument could be made that the SDA religion has never been concerned about following the example of the early church. If they have, I never heard about it in 15 years of church school and 40 years in the church.

[ClubV12]

What? You slept through all those classes?

I see a lot of similarities myself. It's like you never see a Saab on the road, until you own one, then they are everywhere. It just depends on how you look at it what you see.

My concern with any leadership position is not so much more "numbers" (people in the pews) but how to inspire the people to grow closer to Jesus. Not just in some general way, but seriously make a committment to our Lord in every way.

All though, I do understand that the numbers are important and at the highest levels that cannot be ignored. James White in particular was ALWAYS concerned with the numbers. People numbers, tithes, offerings, income, numbers as well. Someone has to run the business. Just like Paul, who was also keenly aware of the numbers, the organization, the structure and the money.

[Stan]

Does the Church have authority to decree anything new?

[Stan]

that could be a question by itself...

[ClubV12]

Of course! The latest "new thing" was fundamental belief #11 (if I recall correctly). Which added one more item to the list. Righteouss by faith, essentially and in a nut shell.

[cricket]

How can a church, or anyone, decree anything new if there is nothing new under the sun?

The most important characteristics for a conference president are to be God-fearing, God-called, and God-obedient.

[Raphael]

Aren't there any Bible verses that clearly show Gods clear stated or implied preference upon gender leadership? Didn't I recall there was something that God said and implying that He was sorta forced to use a woman to kill an enemy leader by nailing a tent nail through his temple? Sort of forced cause the man leadership was failing Him?

And besides that, aren't there any other revealing texts that disclose God actual preference on the matter? Please someone help out?

The current development of woman ordination issues and actions simply shows how the SDA organization has not addressed this issue far before hand, that includes accepting or tolerating fully active gays into SDA membership and others (Revealed through that SDA milestone research)..

Is it too late? Hopefully not.

[LifeHiscost]

Aren't there any Bible verses that clearly show Gods clear stated or implied preference upon gender leadership?

And besides that, aren't there any other revealing texts that disclose God actual preference on the matter? Please someone help out?

Is it too late? Hopefully not.

"To the woman He said,

“I will greatly multiply

Your pain in childbirth,

In pain you will bring forth children;

Yet your desire will be for your husband,

And he will rule over you.”"Genesis 3:16 NASB

Since sin seems to bear full sway of the human race as a result of the initial failure starting with Eve, should it be any different about other issues starting with the beginning of the human race, especially when it is found one has training that seems to tend toward salvation becoming, at least partially, a result of the way we worship as opposed to submission to Jesus, the Way, as Lord and Savior.

God cares!

[CoAspen]

Quote:

The current development of woman ordination issues and actions simply shows how the SDA organization has not addressed this issue far before hand, that includes accepting or tolerating fully active gays into SDA membership and others (Revealed through that SDA milestone research)..

Let the person without sin cast the first stone......

Trying to bring in the 'gay' issue as a tactic against WO......hopefully not. We already have people hung up on that one.

[ClubV12]

Well you asked,,,

"The Scriptures are plain upon the relations and rights of men and women." Testimonies Vol 1, pg 421

God created men and women to be complementary in nature but with different roles. Like knife, fork and spoon. These distinctive roles must be maintained for both healthy families and healthy churches.

It has been said, "Sincere people can make a strong biblical case for support of ordination or not support of ordination." I've heard that several times, I don't agree with it entirely. I have no doubt people are "sincere". I also have no doubt Ellen White and the bible are "plain" in the rights of men and women. IF SO, there can only be ONE answer, not two, no matter how sincere someone is.

So what DOES the bible say, that is, as Ellen White states it, "plain"? Says Paul, "I am writing these instructions to you so that . . . you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth" I Timothy 3:14, 15

And his counsel is?

"I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet." 1 Timothy 2:12 And then some take this counsel to Timothy and apply it EXCLUSIVELY to a mans wife. Paul counseling Timothy on how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the CHURCH of the living God. The counsel is "plain". Why? Because, Paul says, Adam was formed first, then Eve. Paul is saying there were differences BEFORE sin entered! Of course they were equal, like a knife and spoon are equal, with different roles.

Paul is making clear that Adam had a "leadership" role before sin. God doesn't do anything without meaning, creating Adam first wasn't "just because". He could have spoke them both into existence at the same time, He didn't. Don't miss the "plain" application.

Paul has another reason, "Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression." 1 Timothy 2:14 This counsel is NOT based on "culture", it is based on a biblical event.

Concerning "culture" the prophetess states,

"In God’s word alone we find an authentic account of creation. Here we behold the power that laid the foundation of the earth and that stretched out the heavens. Here only can we find a history of our race, unsullied by human prejudice or human pride." Testimonies Vol 5, pg 25

The counsel is "plain".

[debbym]

i dont think we have church decrees.

the catholic church exercises authority and makes decrees of new things she invents.

when we express something that is already in scripture and write it down and give it recognition and honor, we are not making a decree, and it is not a new thing.

[Raphael]

Originally Posted By: Raphael

"To the woman He said,

“I will greatly multiply

Your pain in childbirth,

In pain you will bring forth children;

Yet your desire will be for your husband,

And he will rule over you.”"Genesis 3:16 NASB

People could easily say that only husbands can rule over their wives, which is not applicable for matters outside marriages, such as the matter of this "woman ordination" and believe that men are not mandated or authorized to rule over other non-wife women, therefore leaving no certainty upon which gender has clarified leadership preference..

Are not there clearer statements in the Bible that state or imply clear gender leadership preference?

I mentioned the (very high) tolerance of SDA active gay church membership simply because it's one of the items of the survey research that obviously needs addressing by the SDA organization.. there are more on that SDA milestone survey research list that needs to be addressed.. sorry for not providing a link to it.. but it's here in ClubAdventist.

Thank you for helping by the way LifeHiscost and ClubV12

[Neil D]

To me, I am more interested if a Conference President, can increase attendance, increase the number of Church, increase membership than if they are ordained as a Pastor, or if they have ovaries are not.

Didn't we appoint people to office if they were giving bible studies, especially if they were getting results in the baptismal tank, and even more if they not only became members of the church, but also took on the responsibilities of church office....Wasn't our goal to send out reapers and gatherers to bring in people into our church, regardless of sex, orientation, creed, gender, persuasion....? Didn't those who reaped the most get the office of his choice?

now, we have office holders and managers.....who mantain the status quo and are not interested in increasing the church membership, but rather interested in collecting those who have the same attitude as we do......and now, there are more going out than coming in...at least, last I heard...

The result is that we don't have too many creative people in our church...or intellectuals who explore the world and bring to light new things found, we don't have too many musicians within our church, but those who play as Take Three did and the Heritage Singers...but what we DO have are those who can do Southern Gospel...well......

[ClubV12]

Neil says,

"Wasn't our goal to send out reapers and gatherers to bring in people into our church, regardless of sex, orientation, creed, gender, persuasion..."

That might be YOUR goal, it is certainly not the goal of the Church! Gender and the assigned role must be a factor under consideration. Women are not fit, in every way, for every role. Nor are men. This principle cannot be ignored. Thus, what you may call "discrimination" I call "discernment".

Some teachers, some preachers, some prophets, some bible workers. Time, place and gender must be considered factors in all the above.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Neil says,

"Wasn't our goal to send out reapers and gatherers to bring in people into our church, regardless of sex, orientation, creed, gender, persuasion..."

That might be YOUR goal, it is certainly not the goal of the Church!

perC12

Neil, I am afraid you just don't get it! We now have a check list to see if 'men' agree if you are called of God and don't forget, 'men' make the standards about who may be welcomed in a church! Any 'practicing' sinner need not apply! I don't know about you, but it certainly leaves out me!!!

[ClubV12]

It is men who make these decisions. Men appointed to lead Gods Church. No different than the appointments He has made since time began. Moses was so appointed. As were Peter, Paul a host of others. As are the men of today leading this Church.

What so ever they bind on earth, is bound in heaven. Before concluding your own private interpretation you need to check with the "men" appointed to lead His Church. You need to, as far as possible, come into harmony with them.

Lucifer didn't want to do that. He wanted his own way, his own freedom. He didn't like Gods laws. So he started his own "church". All are free to follow his lead, or Christs lead.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

To me, I am more interested if a Conference President, can increase attendance, increase the number of Church, increase membership then if they are ordained as a Pastor, or if they have ovaries are not.

is that really the job of a Conference President? Or is the job to provide "continuity of care" from the top church level to the individual church member?

(GC, Division, Union, Conference, Local Church, individual member)

[Johann]

It is men who make these decisions. Men appointed to lead Gods Church. No different than the appointments He has made since time began. Moses was so appointed. As were Peter, Paul a host of others. As are the men of today leading this Church.

What so ever they bind on earth, is bound in heaven. Before concluding your own private interpretation you need to check with the "men" appointed to lead His Church. You need to, as far as possible, come into harmony with them.

Lucifer didn't want to do that. He wanted his own way, his own freedom. He didn't like Gods laws. So he started his own "church". All are free to follow his lead, or Christs lead.

It appears to me like many of those who object to the ordination of women have a woman make most of the decisions for them. At least they use quotations from Ellen White as a basis for their decisions.

[ClubV12]

Not a woman Johann, a prophetess, BIG difference. I primarily base my opinions on the words of Paul. But I certainly don't have a problem with the insights and counsel of a divinely appointed, inspired messenger, man or woman! Men were called first to the job, as I'm sure you know. Just as we see in the bible, if no man can be found, women have on occasion taken the role traditionally reserved for a man.

Even children were used as Gods mouth piece when adults could not speak. God used a donkey, when a man refused to listen. Even the stones would cry out if need be!

We do not conclude from this that children, donkeys or stones are biblically authorized to become the President of the World Church. Nor should we conclude that because women HAVE been chosen as prophets in the past that automatically qualifies women (or children, or donkeys, or stones) to be President.

[phkrause]

It is men who make these decisions. Men appointed to lead Gods Church. No different than the appointments He has made since time began. Moses was so appointed. As were Peter, Paul a host of others. As are the men of today leading this Church.

What so ever they bind on earth, is bound in heaven. Before concluding your own private interpretation you need to check with the "men" appointed to lead His Church. You need to, as far as possible, come into harmony with them.

Lucifer didn't want to do that. He wanted his own way, his own freedom. He didn't like Gods laws. So he started his own "church". All are free to follow his lead, or Christs lead.

I do agree that God chose men, but not all the time did he? He chose women also! One was Esther, who he chose to help his people from total destruction! He did choose 2 men, if I'm not mistaken, before he chose Ellen! a "women," because the men didn't have the Chutzpah to show others what God wanted.

[ClubV12]

As I noted in the post above yours PK, he also chose children, a donkey and if necessary, would choose stones. :)