CoAspen Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 We have to ask our self the question....what is wrong with women? Did/does God want to punish EVE for taking the first bite? Do we have men wanting to perpetuate the thousand of years ago method of treating women?Why are we fixating on that ancient methodology as our reasoning for today? Are we saying it is not cultural because God would have changed otherwise? Why do we not continue in those ancient ways for everything, did God ever say you can change? What's good enough for Paul should be good enough for everyone! I think we all know and understand the real issue here. Women were never trusted because they 'sinned' first and they had God's curse to prove it. Really, EVE sinned first? Are we sure about that? Did ADAM just let EVE wonder off on her own and ignore Gods command to stay together? Or was he by her side and just watching to see if she would die? If one looks up the definition of sin, noun and verb, you will see there is culpability on both sides. So we seem to be 'grading' the sin/wrong doing, in our decision of who was the worse sinner! Wait a minute, God placed a curse on ADAM as well, what happened to that? As has been mentioned many times, there is a misunderstanding of the headship/leadership issue and I believe quite purposely? There is a strong desire that men can/should stay in charge regardless of the lack of evidence to support that premise, over 50 yrs of study! I no longer believe it is about what God wants, but rather a control issue. Yes, that is what I said. We do not have a POPE, although some would seem to play with words/ thoughts/ideas, and still say the President/GC is ipso facto speaking for God, regardless. We all have a conscience and direct connection to God. His own words say that. I believe we 'sin' when trying to deny that access to anyone, male or female. The disciples had arguments about who would be first and we know where that ended. It is not about who is in charge, that would/should be God, but who is going to care for wounded of heart, the hungry, the poor, giving the good news of a better life to come and salvation for all who desire it, grasp it and hang on to it. If people want to haggle and argue for another 40-50 years, so be it, but just remember about the wondering in the desert. I will choose the leadership of God vs man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 CoAspen asks, "Did/does God want to punish EVE for taking the first bite?" Yes and yes. Either that or we throw out Pauls counsel to Timothy where he specifically mentions the fact that Eve's fall is ONE of the reasons he forbibs women to have authority in Church. It's just part of the "curse" they brought upon themselves. Properly understood, you see in most curses a certain beauty, blessing and protection from God to the one who is cursed. It is for their own good that you punish your child for stealing or playing in the street or killing the neighbor. Such is the case with women, God saw that it would the best thing for them, for mankind, to be under submission. It is a blessing, but some will always see it as a curse and nothing more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Quote: Wait a minute, God placed a curse on ADAM as well, what happened to that? So...what are you doing about your 'blessing'? Still tilling the ground by the sweat of your brow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 God did indeed place a curse on Adam! An equal, but different curse. Hard work is a blessing many have never discovered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted November 12, 2013 Moderators Share Posted November 12, 2013 Quote: Paul has another reason, "Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression." 1 Timothy 2:14 This counsel is NOT based on "culture", it is based on a biblical event. Eve fell into sin and was not intentional. Adam's sin was deliberate and intentional. It would seem to me that his was the greater sin. The 3rd chapter of Patriarchs and Prophets has some interesting comments on this. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted November 12, 2013 Moderators Share Posted November 12, 2013 Quote: is that really the job of a Conference President? Or is the job to provide "continuity of care" from the top church level to the individual church member? Good question and probably no one answer. One response might include: The job of a Conference President is to support the work of the local congregations and pastors in providing pastoral care and evangelism. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 The world is industrialized, not much 'tilling' by hand in a long time! Riding a tractor of other machine is not the same, much easier. Last I checked women still give birth the same way. Not equal in any manner! Men sure have lucked out on that 'curse'! As Greg said, (paraphrased)men still want to punish women for 'eating' when they themselves evaluate the situation and still go ahead. The role of women and men IS NOT about who sinned first. It is a cultural tradition that religious leaders have used to remain in control. Those same cultural conditions have made it difficult for women to be recognized for their abilities in the secular world as well. Again a control issue. Heaven, which we are trying to emulate, is about equality under God, does the church want to follow that example or not is the question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Neil says,"Wasn't our goal to send out reapers and gatherers to bring in people into our church, regardless of sex, orientation, creed, gender, persuasion..." That might be YOUR goal, it is certainly not the goal of the Church! Gender and the assigned role must be a factor under consideration. Women are not fit, in every way, for every role. Nor are men. This principle cannot be ignored. Thus, what you may call "discrimination" I call "discernment". Some teachers, some preachers, some prophets, some bible workers. Time, place and gender must be considered factors in all the above. Matthew 28:18-20 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” It isn't MY goal....twas Someone's else goal....He also said- Matthew 28:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. The imperative tone in these passages is absolute....We believe that Jesus is coming again and He will use any means to achieve this goal, including a female who is ordained and/or a woman president.... Our job is to listen to Him and if HE says I made this woman and she has My ideas in her and she is key to My plans at this time, who are we to stand in God's way? You may not like it, Club, but this is not YOUR cosmic fight. It is God's and you and I need to step aside and let God do His work....And when one of us show promise in the reaping of the harvest, you and I need to step aside and let God work thru people, including women, and allow thier leadership shine thru.... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Quote: Neil says,"Wasn't our goal to send out reapers and gatherers to bring in people into our church, regardless of sex, orientation, creed, gender, persuasion..." That might be YOUR goal, it is certainly not the goal of the Church! perC12 Neil, I am afraid you just don't get it! We now have a check list to see if 'men' agree if you are called of God and don't forget, 'men' make the standards about who may be welcomed in a church! Any 'practicing' sinner need not apply! I don't know about you, but it certainly leaves out me!!! Your sarcasm is showing again, CoAspen....at least, I surely hope it is showing thru... ...but with all due respect, my friend, I do hope you have not "gone dark" on me...[smile]..a person can get a bit caught up at the ludicrous arguments another makes... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Neil, your proposal is essentially every man and woman for themselves. It's not your job to independantly determine who is fit for any given job within the Church. The Church Board will appoint Deacons, Elders, Sabbath School teachers, etc. And it works that way right on up to the top. Heaven works the same way, it is organized for service. There are leaders, there are leaders over the leaders, much like the military. Gender must be a consideration for certain roles. Women can do a better job in some roles, men can do a better job in others. Experience, education, spiritual gifts, all these things must be considered. Sorry, you can kick and scream all you like, but order and discipline will be maintained regardless of your independant views. The "Church Board" at the highest level is the G.C., I trust they will make the right decision as to who is fit for what job. It is right and proper that gender is given consideration for any given job. That won't change even if women become ordained. That won't change even if women become President. It's just common sense, which as we have seen, is not so common as the term implies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Neil, your proposal is essentially every man and woman for themselves. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 I leave plenty of room for people to address their own individual calling. There are lots of self supporting workers doing terrific jobs for the body. You don't appoint yourself to be Deacon, that is the role of the Church Board. But if you want to be an independant bible worker or evangelist, go for it! Follow your calling. If you think your calling is to be President of the world Church, you will need to go through the proper channels to have that calling verified. There are and should be "road blocks" to some positions. Thats why Paul sent Timothy home, he wasn't ready for the calling to the job. He needed to mature a little more. God works through His Church at every level, with organization, road blocks, denial of a position you may want and they feel you are not equipped for. Will you accept that or will you murmur and complain? Church Boards have to deal with this all the time, telling people NO, you can't be Head Elder. No, you can't be a Deacon. No, you can't even be a MEMBER of some group. I'm OK with that because I trust God to lead His Church. I'm OK with your calling to work independantly of the Church AS LONG as you continue to honor, respect and support the Church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Quote: I leave plenty of room for people to address their own individual calling. There are lots of self supporting workers doing terrific jobs for the body. No, you don't....you are denying what local/conference/unions boards have recognized that these women have done...You deny thier work and God's work, and the evidence that God supports them...The very fact that you erroneously insist that the bible says contrary to the reality that is before you shows that YOU have a problem. Oh, and it wasn't Timothy that was sent home...I suspect that you are refering to mark...See Acts 15:36-38 Some time later Paul said to Barnabas, “Let us go back and visit the believers in all the towns where we preached the word of the Lord and see how they are doing.” Barnabas wanted to take John, also called Mark, with them, but Paul did not think it wise to take him, because he had deserted them in Pamphylia and had not continued with them in the work. Oh, and btw, unless it is an emergency, it's not the board that chooses people to set on the board..It's the nominating committee... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 For centuries fishing has been a main industry in the country where I reside. Seamen were often gone for a long time. That trained the women at home for leadership. In many cases they are better leaders, even though men have desperately tried to deny the fact, even using some spurious Biblical comments to support their claims. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Neil says, "No, you don't..." Club says, "Yes I do..." Now that right there is some productive dialog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Was it as good for you as it was for me? Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raphael Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 It's clear based on Bible verses that in a marriage, man shall lead over a woman and that a woman's love will be for her husband.. a decree clear enough that can't be misunderstood in any way. Further a saying also goes that the smallest unit in society is the family, the grass roots of civilisation and so on. Now with that undeniably clear God authority decree upon family leadership, amongst and for ALL families of entire billions of populations throughout the entire universe of our world.. I just would like to ask.. does it connect to have differentiating opinions on gender leadership..? unless in the case of emergency stories ofcourse.. where the stones would speak, maybe the trees too, donkeys did, even under aged children had their moments of leadership glory like King Josiah and ofcourse women, just to name a few.. Perhaps the better question for our times is.. are we in an emergency situation that has made God do his super rare and infrequent action of selecting a woman to lead? Plus ofcourse, this also very clearly implies the impossibility of regular women leadership roles due to the impossible likelihood of 'regular' emergencies as well, right? What do you think? Quote Test me with thy might but grant me safe passage. Now, who said that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 This ^^ is true Raphael. A man and woman walking in oneness is evangelism. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 This ^^ is true Raphael. A man and woman walking in oneness is evangelism. So they have to be married? Wasn't Paul single? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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