If it was your wife...

[olger]

Indeed Cocha.

g

[Tom Wetmore]

It's a straw man hypothetical. One could turn around and ask you "What would you do if your wife said 'I have studied the Bible and concluded that WO is wrong, and I am opposed to it from this day forward.'" Both hypothetical.

So Ger, how does Mrs. Wagoner view this issue? Do you let her express her own opinion on the matter? If you are not willing to honestly address the hypothetical scenario I suggested, how do you and your wife resolve significant differences of opinion on other important matters?

[cricket]

How does it view the issue?

[olger]

Originally Posted By: olger

It's a straw man hypothetical. One could turn around and ask you "What would you do if your wife said 'I have studied the Bible and concluded that WO is wrong, and I am opposed to it from this day forward.'" Both hypothetical.

So Ger, how does Mrs. Wagoner view this issue? Do you let her express her own opinion on the matter? If you are not willing to honestly address the hypothetical scenario I suggested, how do you and your wife resolve significant differences of opinion on other important matters?

That is none of your business, Tom and you know it. When did you stop beating your wife? This year or last year?

However, in an expression of Christian charity, I make this offer. Give me your address, and we will both come to your house, the four of us will sit down and you can ask her in person. I'll be waitin.

Looking forward!

g

[Neil D]

That is none of your business, Tom and you know it. When did you stop beating your wife? This year or last year?

Why is her opinion of this subject taboo? I don't understand....We are NOT talking about subjects that are forbidden....

Just your wife's opinion on women's ordination....that shouldn't be off limits....should it??

[Tom Wetmore]

Ger, that really is a strange answer. I am not asking for you to delve into private or intimate details of your relationship. How is your wife's opinion on this or any other public issue such a private matter that you dare not disclose it? How about if you ask her if it is OK for you to publish it here? The two of you do marriage enrichment workshops, counseling, presentations, etc. Surely you have covered the topic of resolving differences in marriage, or dealing with conflict in that kind of public context. What wisdom do you impart to those people that is off-limits for us?

[olger]

Neither my answer nor your backpedaling away from my sincere offer are strange.

You began this witchhunt with a hypothetical scenario intertwined with your favorite topic -- Female Ordination. I don't find hypothetical scenarios useful, and thus ignored the bait.

Your determination to make this personal has now morphed to "Just please tell us (who is 'us'?) what your wife's opinion is of WO." Why do you need this?

Where I come from, men don't drag people's wives into public conversations. You seem to make a habit of it.

Gerry Wagoner

Piqua, OH

[Tom Wetmore]

Ger,

Not a witch hunt, but a sincere desire to understand your perspective and I would hope for you to understand mine.

As for this being too personal, it is strange that you should take that evasive cop out since you have often sought to make things quite personal in discussions. (Oddly revealing observation about bringing ones wife in to a public discussion, but also inconsistent since I think you have done so more than than I have around here, really.) But more to the point, I intended for it to come close to home for a fundamental reason. As you also have proudly proclaimed, this church is near and dear to your heart - it is personal. And so it is with me. We are talking about close relationships, our church family, if you will. Unless you can understand this issue on that deeply personal level, I am not too sure that you really get it. All the intellectualizing and theologizing does not get to the heart of the matter unless you are under a personal conviction on the matter, IMHO.

SInce it is your side of the debate that seeks to so closely draw the line of the relationship of men and women in the church from the close relationship of husband and wife, this issue does become very personal and relevant in the context of a marriage, yours and mine. And more broadly, how we resolve conflict and maintain unity in marriage is a great example of how we can do so in the church as well. If as Club has suggested, such differences result in divorce in marriage, with no hope of resolution, than the church is headed for a painful split on WO. But if as I am sure you believe, because we have talked about it, a marriage can withstand any storm, and come out the other side stronger and more firmly united with God's help and a clear commitment by both husband and wife to let no man break it apart. Since Jesus himself equated the Church as being like a marriage, I think the same is true of the Church and how it will get through this issue.

Those who are firm in their commitment to this Church will stay with it no matter where this storm carries us. For those that see this issue as so cast in stone and intractable that it is more important than the Church itself, they will leave the Church over it, either physically or spiritually. That to me is very sad indeed!

[M. T. Cross]

You began this witchhunt with a hypothetical scenario intertwined with your favorite topic -- Female Ordination. I don't find hypothetical scenarios useful, and thus ignored the bait.

Gerry Wagoner

Piqua, OH

But you didn't ignore it. You responded to the thread, in fact you were the second person to do so. If you found it so useless why not let the adults just have their discussion and go do some research on global warming lies or something?

And I am curious about something else too. Why is it such a big deal for you the whole giving out your location and real name thing?

[ClubV12]

Tom says,

"For those that see this issue as so cast in stone and intractable that it is more important than the Church itself, they will leave the Church over it, either physically or spiritually. That to me is very sad indeed!"

That is indeed very, very sad Tom. I believe many of us are making that decision everyday in the little decisions and things we say in real life or on the web. Character formation is ongoing process. The storm will only reveal it, not change it.

Those who habitually condem leadership for anything and everything, at whatever level, are developing that character today. Some settling into the truth, some settling out.

I don't always get it right, but I WANT to get it right, that is Gods plan for all of us.

[phkrause]

Ger,

Not a witch hunt, but a sincere desire to understand your perspective and I would hope for you to understand mine.

As for this being too personal, it is strange that you should take that evasive cop out since you have often sought to make things quite personal in discussions. (Oddly revealing observation about bringing ones wife in to a public discussion, but also inconsistent since I think you have done so more than than I have around here, really.) But more to the point, I intended for it to come close to home for a fundamental reason. As you also have proudly proclaimed, this church is near and dear to your heart - it is personal. And so it is with me. We are talking about close relationships, our church family, if you will. Unless you can understand this issue on that deeply personal level, I am not too sure that you really get it. All the intellectualizing and theologizing does not get to the heart of the matter unless you are under a personal conviction on the matter, IMHO.

SInce it is your side of the debate that seeks to so closely draw the line of the relationship of men and women in the church from the close relationship of husband and wife, this issue does become very personal and relevant in the context of a marriage, yours and mine. And more broadly, how we resolve conflict and maintain unity in marriage is a great example of how we can do so in the church as well. If as Club has suggested, such differences result in divorce in marriage, with no hope of resolution, than the church is headed for a painful split on WO. But if as I am sure you believe, because we have talked about it, a marriage can withstand any storm, and come out the other side stronger and more firmly united with God's help and a clear commitment by both husband and wife to let no man break it apart. Since Jesus himself equated the Church as being like a marriage, I think the same is true of the Church and how it will get through this issue.

Those who are firm in their commitment to this Church will stay with it no matter where this storm carries us. For those that see this issue as so cast in stone and intractable that it is more important than the Church itself, they will leave the Church over it, either physically or spiritually. That to me is very sad indeed!

[phkrause]

Tom says,

"For those that see this issue as so cast in stone and intractable that it is more important than the Church itself, they will leave the Church over it, either physically or spiritually. That to me is very sad indeed!"

That is indeed very, very sad Tom. I believe many of us are making that decision everyday in the little decisions and things we say in real life or on the web. Character formation is ongoing process. The storm will only reveal it, not change it.

Those who habitually condem leadership for anything and everything, at whatever level, are developing that character today. Some settling into the truth, some settling out.

I don't always get it right, but I WANT to get it right, that is Gods plan for all of us.

[Green Cochoa]

Olger,

I notice that these men didn't have much to say against the straight truth I posted in post #676103. Meeting the error head on with truth is more efficacious than descending into the realm of emotions and opinions and relationships.

"Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

[olger]

Extra points for....

"efficacious"

g

[Green Cochoa]

Extra points for....

"efficacious"

g

Thanks. It seems it was.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

[Neil D]

I presume you are aware, as a long-time Adventist who is acquainted with Mrs. White's writings, that one can be an Adventist and yet be praying to Satan unawares. Satan can answer those prayers, and can give people light and much power, but Satan does not give any love, joy or peace.

John 10:28

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

How can one be an Adventist and yet be praying to Satan? According to the bible, that just can't be typed cast that way....You either are or you are not a Christian....there is no straddling of fences....

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Christians *unknowingly* can talk to Satan..

Satan can also be asked for love, joy, and peace. And he can provide it --- it's just that it is only temporary.

[Green Cochoa]

I turned to look at the company who were still bowed before the throne; they did not know that Jesus had left it. Satan appeared to be by the throne, trying to carry on the work of God. I saw them look up to the throne, and pray, "Father, give us Thy Spirit." Satan would then breathe upon them an unholy influence; in it there was light and much power, but no sweet love, joy, and peace. Satan's object was to keep them deceived and to draw back and deceive God's children. {EW 56.1}

Then Jesus shewed me the difference between faith and feeling. And I saw those who rose up with Jesus send up their faith to Jesus in the Holiest, and praying, Father give us thy spirit. Then Jesus would breathe on them the Holy Ghost. In the breath was light, power and much love, joy and peace. Then I turned to look at the company who were still bowed before the throne. They did not know that Jesus had left it. Satan appeared to be by the throne trying to carry on the work of God. I saw them look up to the throne and pray, My Father give us thy spirit. Then Satan would breathe on them an unholy influence. In it there was light and much power, but no sweet love, joy and peace. Satan's object was to keep them deceived and to draw back and deceive God's children. I saw one after another leave the company who were praying to Jesus in the Holiest, go and join those before the throne and they at once received the unholy influence of Satan. {DS, March 14, 1846 par. 1}

God gives "light, power and much love, joy and peace." Satan gives "light and much power, but no sweet love, joy and peace."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

[Neil D]

I beg your pardon, but that can not happen without a knowing violation [aka 'transgression'] one of God commandments.

'John 10:29

My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.."

Examining your post from EGW and this text there are only 4 choices that we have. Our choices are as follows-

1]Either God knowingly allows Satan to influence people without thier knowledge or

2]God knowingly allows Satan to influence people with thier knowledge or

3]God unknowingly allows Satan to influence people without thier knowledge or

4]God unknowingly allows Satan to influence people with thier knowledge...

I think that we can eliminate #3 and #4 because it implys that Satan is more powerful than God...So we are left with choices of 1 or 2 based upon OUR choices.

...and for people to worship Satan from a position of being deceived is from thier having violated a Command from God and taken themselves from God's hand. Just like Eve did.

God works with us to improve the relationship from many differing aspects. IOWS, God is always trying to influence us to change our minds about various parts of our relationship with Him. It is HIS responsibility to bring to us what is wrong with our relationship with Him...It is our responsibility to respond positively to an improved relationship with Him...

A deliberate violation of that relationship is different from an experimental violation of that relationship. Experimental violation is to seek God's will...And God is approving/rewarding that aspect of the relationship....

So, for people to worship God from a deceived position is to have violated God's will knowingly....IE the worship of God on Sunday vs Saturday...

[Green Cochoa]

Neil,

I think all should know better than to pray to Satan, but no one who prays to God would deliberately be choosing to pray to Satan. In other words, there is definitely an element of ignorance on their part, and as you have rightly analyzed, it's their own fault that they are thus ignorant.

One text of scripture that comes to my mind, and seems to be a promise to me, is that "There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked." If we do not have peace, we should be wondering why. That goes along with what Mrs. White says. She says Satan does not give peace. Jesus said so too, in slightly different words: "My peace I give unto you, not as the world gives give I to you." (I'm quoting from memory, so the words may be slightly different than the KJV.)

Basically, if we don't have peace, it's a red flag. We should be asking ourselves "Why?" And, maybe, we've been praying to the wrong god.

Tell me...how much "peace" is there in SECC right now?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

[Tom Wetmore]

We have drifted off topic.

That to me is simply another way of avoiding answering the simple question of the OP. Green, how about a direct answer. No more evasion.

Of those opposed to WO, only Club has actully answered it. I think his answer is sad since he says such disagreement would likely lead to a split.

Call me a naive optimist, but I do not think this issue should or will split the church. If the issue is more important than our relationship as members of the church, we have more serious problems than whether we ordain women or not. I view the sanctity of church as quite the same as that of marriage. That is why I have posed the question as I have.

[Green Cochoa]

Tom,

I felt like I had answered very clearly. I don't think you saw my post, so I'll quote it again for you below. Perhaps now I know why the thread went quiet afterward. You just hadn't seen this.

Tom, Gregory, et al.

The pen of inspiration tells the men what they should do. There is no need to be confused on this point.

First, as it relates to this particular question.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White

The husband is the head of the family, as Christ is the head of the church; and any course which the wife may pursue to lessen his influence and lead him to come down from that dignified, responsible position is displeasing to God. It is the duty of the wife to yield her wishes and will to her husband. Both should be yielding, but the Word of God gives preference to the judgment of the husband. And it will not detract from the dignity of the wife to yield to him whom she has chosen to be her counselor, adviser, and protector. The husband should maintain his position in his family with all meekness, yet with decision.--1T 307, 308 (1862). {1MCP 161.1}

Second, as it relates to the church order.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White

The organization of the church at Jerusalem was to serve as a model for the organization of churches in every other place where messengers of truth should win converts to the gospel. Those to whom was given the responsibility of the general oversight of the church were not to lord it over God's heritage, but, as wise shepherds, were to "feed the flock of God, . . . being ensamples to the flock" (1 Peter 5:2, 3); and the deacons were to be "men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom." These men were to take their position unitedly on the side of right and to maintain it with firmness and decision. Thus they would have a uniting influence upon the entire flock. {AA 91.1}

The present crisis in the church is a result of men failing to do their duty as outlined above.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

[Neil D]

Neil,

In other words, there is definitely an element of ignorance on their part, and as you have rightly analyzed, it's their own fault that they are thus ignorant.

Tell me...how much "peace" is there in SECC right now?

"Ignorance"....? I never said 'ignorance'...I said deliberate violation of God's will....that's a KNOWN given.

Why do you insist on changing my wording to fit your paradigm?

As for the SECC, I think that there is lots of peace there...they have prayerfully wrestled with these issues and have challenged the traditional standard....The ball is in the GC court as to whether they want to conform or strike it down....

[Green Cochoa]

Neil,

You have a right to change your own wording whenever you like.

As for having "prayerfully wrestled," I wonder what sort of prayers those were, and who it might have been to answer them. Mrs. White has told us that "Satan is the instigator of all rebellion."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

[Tom Wetmore]

No, you really didn't answer the question. You just copied and pasted an EGW quote. That quote doesn't offer any insight into how you would , as head of the home, resolve the difference of conviction on the matter between you and your wife. What would that decisive meekness look and sound like? What would be the end result?

Split? You changing your view? Respect her decision and agree to disagree, but recognize the relationship is too important to end it over this? Forbidding your wife from acting on her conviction? Ignore the difference and act as if all is well? Argue and debate about it endlessly without resolution? Seek outside help?