Acts

[Gail]

In the book of Acts, due to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, the apostles were forced to admit changes that the Spirit was bringing about and they had to move out of the way to allow for the gospel to go forward in a larger measure than they had before imagined.

I am talking about the gospel including Gentiles. Think about the mental warp they had to adapt to accept converts from heathenism- Romans, Greeks and beyond. Antioch, where the believers were first called Christians, was a metropolis that contained immigrants from India and China. In Judea, believers in Christ were viewed as just another Jewish sect. But not so in Antioch.

In Acts 11 we see Peter defending his actions of baptising Cornelius to the brethren in Jerusalem.

Will the outpouring of the Holy Spirit make for the shattering of some long-standing traditions in the end of time also? I am wondering about this issue, women's ordination. Or is this mixing apples and oranges?

[CoAspen]

It sounds like a good jumping off point for more discussion. I like your initial thoughts and the direction of your thinking.

[Tom Wetmore]

I believe it is indeed relevant to our time and for this issue especially. I was just thinking about this in reaction to on of the other discussions on this topic. There was tremendous reorientation of the NT church to meet new circumstances and adapt to needs different from what Jewish believers were accustomed to or even believed were acceptable in context of Jewish teaching and tradition. Ellen White speaks of doing things very much out of the old order of things (tradition) with amazing results in our time. Peter invoked the prophet Joel predicting the work of the Holy Spirit upon all without distinction. Acts 15 shows the way in which they solve a conflict between breaking with or maintaining traditional perspectives in extending the gospel to the Gentiles.

[Neil D]

Isaiah 58 is advanced as showing true ministry...in this passage, there is no limitations as to who does what....

Then you will call, and the Lord will answer;

you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I.

“If you do away with the yoke of oppression,

with the pointing finger and malicious talk,

10 and if you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry

and satisfy the needs of the oppressed,

then your light will rise in the darkness,

and your night will become like the noonday.

11 The Lord will guide you always;

he will satisfy your needs in a sun-scorched land

and will strengthen your frame.

You will be like a well-watered garden,

like a spring whose waters never fail.

12 Your people will rebuild the ancient ruins

and will raise up the age-old foundations;

you will be called Repairer of Broken Walls,

Restorer of Streets with Dwellings.

Notice the word "you"...not gender specific..."Your people will rebuild thee ancient ruins"...not gender specific...

This admonition is also non-gender specific-

“If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath and from doing as you please on my holy day,. I mention this because if men were THE leaders and women were to be taking care of the home, then naturally, there would be many Marthas cleaning up after Sabbath dinner, and this text would be more gender specific as would the 4th commandment.

Also, Isaiah 61 is also specific to ministry-

Strangers will shepherd your flocks;

foreigners will work your fields and vineyards.

6 And you will be called priests of the Lord,

you will be named ministers of our God.

I don't see this as gender specific...EGW used this text to promote women in ministry in her writings...

[ClubV12]

The outpouring of the Holy Spirit was abundantly clear due to the large number of miracles and the wide acceptance by the world as they observed these spiritual gifts.

We don't see that in any regard at this time. Let alone as it relates to W.O.

Peter, a prophet, was given divine revelation, which his brethren recognized as divine instruction to accept the Gentiles.

We have yet to see a widely recognized and accepted prophet with a divine message for applying W.O.

The General Conference confirmed the above as indicative of the Spirit guidance on this and several other Church law issues. Ruling accordingly and assured that what so ever they bound on earth would be bound in heaven.

We have yet to see a General Conference ruling on the issue of W.O.

In short, we have seen none of the manifestations displayed in Acts, at this time as evidence for or against W.O.

Of course, people who are so blinded by their drive to support W.O. no matter what, will see "miracles" and "manifestations" where none exist. Such is the power of delusion when we search for evidence only to support our already formed opinion. Satan will be happy to oblige with all manner of apparent spiritual happenings.

To the word, and the Testimony, these issues must be judged, not by some display of apparent miracles.

[Neil D]

The outpouring of the Holy Spirit was abundantly clear due to the large number of miracles and the wide acceptance by the world as they observed these spiritual gifts.

We don't see that in any regard at this time. Let alone as it relates to W.O.

Peter, a prophet, was given divine revelation, which his brethren recognized as divine instruction to accept the Gentiles.

We have yet to see a widely recognized and accepted prophet with a divine message for applying W.O.

the churches in Hornellsville, Gas Springs, Wallace, Silver Creek, Geneva,Angola, Gorham, Fredonia, Avoca, Rushville, Canandaigua and Penn Yan in New York state owe their establishment to a woman minister. And the churches in Avon, Lakeville, Hemlock, South Livonia and Bath were established when Mr Wightman joined his wife as a licensed minister.

Name me a man who has established as many churches as this woman and I will show you an ordained minister. Yet this woman was not ordained, but showed evidence of being ordained by God with a special gift, and we didn't ordain her. Are we prejudiced or racist or biased?

EGW wrote-

Women who are willing to consecrate some of their time to the service of the Lord should be

appointed to visit the sick, look after the young, and minister to the necessities of the poor. They should be set apart to this work by prayer and laying on of hands. In some

cases they will need to counsel with the [local] church

officers or the [Conference] minister; but if they are

devoted women, maintaining a vital connection with God,

they will be a power for good in the church. This is

another means of strengthening and building up the

church. We need to branch out more in our methods of

labor. Not a hand should be bound, not a soul

discouraged, not a voice should be hushed; let every

individual labor, privately or publicly, to help

forward this grand work. [RH, July 9, 1895]

As another has said,

No matter how one interprets that statement, it is clear

that Ellen White is proclaiming that it was now possible for SDA women to be ordained "with perfect propriety."

[Tom Wetmore]

Bump...

[olger]

Thanks for the bump. Needed something to do down here in Dallas.

As to Gail's OP question. The Holy Spirit never leads contrary to the Holy Scriptures.

[Kevin H]

Thanks for the bump. Needed something to do down here in Dallas.

As to Gail's OP question. The Holy Spirit never leads contrary to the Holy Scriptures.

True, but tradition does and we have a tendency to think that we are defending scripture when actually we are defending non-scriptural tradition.

[olger]

Sometimes that happens.

That's why we must go to the Scriptures and based our faith and practice off of them. Starting with Ray Holmes' book and Bacchiocchi's in 1990, we have went to the Scriptures. We have heard the arguments of those who would rewrite history to make it palatable to modern people. The answer is no. No sir.

[Kevin H]

Sometimes that happens.

That's why we must go to the Scriptures and based our faith and practice off of them. Starting with Ray Holmes' book and Bacchiocchi's in 1990, we have went to the Scriptures. We have heard the arguments of those who would rewrite history to make it palatable to modern people. The answer is no. No sir.

As I said, sometimes we think we are defending scripture when we are actually defending tradition instead.

As for Dr. Holmes' book, He only is focused on one set of arguments, and if that was the ONLY set of arguments I'd be in full agreement with him. However this is NOT the only set. His book is like arguing against vegetarianism by pointing out how popular it is in Hinduism and with New Agers. There are conservative and Biblical arguments that he may not have been aware of, but certainly does not address, and thus his book is inadequate

[Gregory Matthews]

Club V12 said:

Quote:

The outpouring of the Holy Spirit was abundantly clear due to the large number of miracles and the wide acceptance by the world as they observed these spiritual gifts.

We don't see that in any regard at this time. Let alone as it relates to W.O.

I will suggest that we clearly see it in China, and have seen it in the past (such as WWII) in other countries.

[Johann]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

The outpouring of the Holy Spirit was abundantly clear due to the large number of miracles and the wide acceptance by the world as they observed these spiritual gifts.

We don't see that in any regard at this time. Let alone as it relates to W.O.

Peter, a prophet, was given divine revelation, which his brethren recognized as divine instruction to accept the Gentiles.

We have yet to see a widely recognized and accepted prophet with a divine message for applying W.O.

the churches in Hornellsville, Gas Springs, Wallace, Silver Creek, Geneva,Angola, Gorham, Fredonia, Avoca, Rushville, Canandaigua and Penn Yan in New York state owe their establishment to a woman minister. And the churches in Avon, Lakeville, Hemlock, South Livonia and Bath were established when Mr Wightman joined his wife as a licensed minister.

Name me a man who has established as many churches as this woman and I will show you an ordained minister. Yet this woman was not ordained, but showed evidence of being ordained by God with a special gift, and we didn't ordain her. Are we prejudiced or racist or biased?

EGW wrote-

Women who are willing to consecrate some of their time to the service of the Lord should be

appointed to visit the sick, look after the young, and minister to the necessities of the poor. They should be set apart to this work by prayer and laying on of hands. In some

cases they will need to counsel with the [local] church

officers or the [Conference] minister; but if they are

devoted women, maintaining a vital connection with God,

they will be a power for good in the church. This is

another means of strengthening and building up the

church. We need to branch out more in our methods of

labor. Not a hand should be bound, not a soul

discouraged, not a voice should be hushed; let every

individual labor, privately or publicly, to help

forward this grand work. [RH, July 9, 1895]

As another has said,

No matter how one interprets that statement, it is clear

that Ellen White is proclaiming that it was now possible for SDA women to be ordained "with perfect propriety."

Why have we been so reluctant to follow the blueprint given by the Lord?

[ClubV12]

As it concerns W.O., the blueprint is not clear for the world church, which is why the issue is under study.

[Johann]

As it concerns W.O., the blueprint is not clear for the world church, which is why the issue is under study.

It was quite clear to four of the world divisions who found it Biblical.

[ClubV12]

Not so clear to these Divisions, four of them, who have not found it biblical.

No Euro-Asia Division

No South Africa-Indian Ocean Division

No Southern Asia-Pacific Division

No West-Central Africa Division

[Johann]

Is that what the SID said?