Trans-European Division votes on WO

[ClubV12]

It is if you decide to leave the Church if you don't get your way!!! And some certainly will, no matter which way the vote goes.

[CoAspen]

It is if you decide to leave the Church if you don't get your way!!! And some certainly will, no matter which way the vote goes.

[ClubV12]

I'm not surprised you don't understand CoAspen...

It's not about the issue of W.O., never has been. It's not about the trials and tribulations you experience in your Christian walk on a daily basis. It's not about a crisis developing your character, the crisis only reveals the character your forming right now.

It's all about how you respond to a crisis. Are you willing to submit to the leadership of the Church and accept their ruling on W.O.? If it's not what you want, how will you respond?

Leaving the Church does not necessarily equal being lost. But it's a very dangerous place to be and it could very well become a life and death issue.

[Johann]

Claude Lombart, a former administrator in various mission fields, has written this evaluation of the TED report:

Without wanting to give the wrong impression, to my knowledge (and I stand to be corrected on this), there is only one Division that has done the most thorough of jobs so far, the TED. BW (Bertil Wilander) has left no theological/ecclesiastical/church history/political, etc. stone unturned. Like with any other church leader BW had has his fair share of criticism about some of the unpopular decisions he had to take over the years, but in this instance, he shines at his very best, on every front, as a reasoned theologian, a seasoned church leader, an insightful ecclesiastical politician, a humble, empathic and passionate pastor, and a sharp educator.

No wonder the whole leadership work force at TED's year end meeting, without exception, to give him a 100% vote of confidence - in a secret ballot at that (which perhaps goes to show how confident he was in the outcome). I predict that that document will go down in the annals of Adventist church history as his most valuable contribution to the church, just prior to his retirement. He did point out that he stood on the shoulders of other Adventist luminaries (my word) in his preparation.

He had already tested the waters at a previous presentation at Newbold College, as you will recall, when he literally wowed the 90 strong attendees. I was one of them! Again, the TED’s 730 page report, which is not yet available to the general Adventist public because it has to go to TOSC first, is not about WO per se but about a whole range of biblical/theological issues that will impact the way we do church, with an inclusive two-gender-equality approach (I am well aware there are many more genders these days), and a re-defined and re-calibrated pastoral ministry, in the way the appointment, the induction (or “setting apart”), the granting of credential, and the functioning among equally gifted church members, (priesthood of all believers) etc. is done.

We live in exciting times. Should this massive document become the blue print for our World church, over time, it is likely to become the most profound, significant and holy revolution this church has ever witnessed, to the Glory of God, the saving of lost people, and the retention of many of the vast numbers that are leaving our church through the back doors, daily. I would like to submit that this document is first and foremost, and essentially, about doing (evangelism) and being (nurture) church at its very best, from a purely biblical/theological standpoint. How could anyone vote against it, I might ask!

GC statistician and historian Dr David Trim, a personal friend of mine, has a lot to tell us about this major and mind-boggling issue which has plagued our church over the decades but had been passed over, for reasons I will not go into, as it is a touchy topic. I could say a few things about this myself but will leave it at that, for now, unless someone wants to put it out as a topic of discussion. When the church news in SPD talks about an Exodus of members, it’s no small potato stuff surely - http://record.net.au/items/church-leaders-look-at-reality-of-exodus.

Claude

[CoAspen]

Cool! Can't wait for the whole report. Sounds like we are on the threshold of leaving the desert!

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Leaving the Church does not necessarily equal being lost.

Thanks for the clarification, as one can be lost in the church as well!

[ClubV12]

Ellen White is very clear that membership in the Church in no way equals salvation. On the other hand, she is also very clear that membership in the Church is an obligation, a requirement of salvation.

How do you reconcile the two above truths? Spiritual things are spiritually understood. BOTH statements are absolutely true.

To him who has been given great light, much is required. For those who have been in the Church, learned of the doctrine, rejected the authority of the Church in favor of charting their own path are in grave danger.

Jesus told the Jewish leaders in no uncertain terms, HE was the messiah, the great I AM, as they argued with Him and among themselves as to who He was. He told them if they did not believe on Him, they would die in their sins.

So it is today with His Church, this IS the test for those who claim to follow Him. Acceptance of His Church. For those with a knowledge of this Church, this truth, if you do not believe this IS His Church, you will die in your sins.

It is a grievous sin to denigrate, dishonor, ignore those leaders whom God has appointed to guide His Church. And make no mistake, His Church is the organized, visible Seventh-day Adventist Church. A chosen people, a nation of priests, with a message and with truth no other group on earth has been given.

[scott.t]

Quote:

It's all about how you respond to a crisis. Are you willing to submit to the leadership of the Church and accept their ruling on W.O.? If it's not what you want, how will you respond?

Leaving the Church does not necessarily equal being lost. But it's a very dangerous place to be and it could very well become a life and death issue.

Club12, I shortened your post,only because I had a question on this part if it.

How does one know when to follow their church, or when to disagree with it? If I disagree with a belief or principle of my church, do I follow my heart or go along with what my church says even if I disagree?

W.O is just an example, the bible seems to have many issues similar. Is wine really wine, clean unclean foods, what you can do and can't do on the sabbath.

What do you do if you agree with some of the churches opinions yet disagree with others?

Scott

[ClubV12]

I may NOT agree with Church on it's ruling for W.O. James White and Uriah Smith disagreed on a lot of points. Our history is filled with people who disagreed, and yet, most of them managed to stay together in spite of that.

If you DO disagree and feel so strongly about that that you must leave the Church over it you are virtually committing spiritual suicide. Our history shows this aspect of disagreement as well. Kellogg is one such example. A.T. Jones is another. Both powerful leaders, men whom God used at some point, who eventually rejected the authority of the Church.

The counsel on this is clear. Once the G.C. has ruled, Ellen White says we are NOT to cling to our cherished positions, we are to set them to one side. Leave it to God as to what then will happen. In HIS time, not yours, if you are right, it will be revealed to the CHURCH, not just to you. Meanwhile, with pen and voice, make known your position, in an honorable, respectful way. Under NO circumstances are you allowed to withdraw your membership or support for Gods chosen, appointed, leadership. IF that time comes (and it will appear to come, but it will not come) when this Church has been abandoned of God the evidence will be overwhelming and conclusive. There will be no guess work about it.

Great men in our history who have left the faith and gone into darkness share ONE common trait. They FIRST gave up their confidence in the G.C., the leadership of the Church. THAT is a most serious error and grievous sin that God will not ignore. In the time of Moses, such were stoned to death. That sentence still stands, the execution only has been postponed.

I am learning, and it has not been easy, to be kind, to love those with whom I have serious doctrinal disagreements. However, once they have left the Church AND fight against it, there can be no compromise. I will not "love them to death", they must hear the truth.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Ellen White is very clear that membership in the Church in no way equals salvation. On the other hand, she is also very clear that membership in the Church is an obligation, a requirement of salvation.

Source please.

Quote:

And make no mistake, His Church is the organized, visible Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Source please.

[CoAspen]

First we are told that membership does not equal salvation. We are also told that leaving the church does not mean loss of salvation. Then......we are told the opposite! Membership is a requirement of salvation!! Does anyone else see the confusion in such statements? Exact Opposites!

What does the Bible say, believe in Christ for salvation! J3:16, also told by Paul and Silas to their jailer! Nothing about membership in the SDA church or any other earthly .org. Gods church, yes. But, it seems many want to call their church/.org as the real 'God Church'!

I remember a time when such was in vogue and taught by religious leaders. Hmmm....let me remember when that was....during Christ time on earth?? They were just as confused then and even after Christ explaining the realities of it all, still unbelievers.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

How do you reconcile the two above truths? Spiritual things are spiritually understood. BOTH statements are absolutely true.

Proof please.

God does not make simple thing confusing, humans learned about doing that and are quite proficient. God does not say two opposite things, contradicting His words, but again, humans are very adept at doing this. The above statement uses the 'out' by saying if one is 'spiritual' enough than they will understand!! Smugness, comes to mind.

[ClubV12]

Jesus continually confounded not only the Jews but many Gentiles as well. And yet, some understood, some got it. Others thought these were such hard sayings who could hear them?

Those who seek to DO His will, will know of the doctrine. Those looking for excuses will find an abundance of hooks to hang their doubts on and confusion at every turn.

Only those with a pure heart, humbly seeking truth, wanting to DO His will, will find the truth. For those who continually ask for "proof" while ignoring the clear, convincing evidence God has presented to them, will not believe though one rose from the dead.

God CONSTANTLY presents apparently opposing truths, how WILL you know which path to choose? Most will not find it, the way is narrow, the gate is not large.

[ClubV12]

"Many do not realize the sacredness of church relationship and are loath to submit to restraint and discipline. Their course of action shows that they exalt their own judgment above that of the united church, and they are not careful to guard themselves lest they encourage a spirit of opposition to its voice."

MR311 10.1

"Those who hold responsible positions in the church may have faults in common with other people and may err in their decisions; but notwithstanding this, the church of Christ on earth has given to them an authority that cannot be lightly esteemed. Christ, after His resurrection, delegated power unto His church, saying: "Whosesoever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whosesoever sins ye retain, they are retained." Church relationship is not to be lightly canceled; yet when the path of some professed followers of Christ is crossed, or when their voice has not the controlling influence which they think it deserves, they will threaten to leave the church.... Every believer should be wholehearted in his attachment to the church. Its prosperity should be his first interest, and unless he feels under sacred obligations to make his connection with the church a benefit to it in preference to himself, it can do far better without him." 4T pg 17

"The church is organized for service; and in a life of service to Christ, connection with the church is one of the first steps. Loyalty to Christ demands the faithful performance of church duties."

[olger]

I read this verse this morning. "What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you? You want something but don't get it" (James 4).

According to James, war in the church is preceded by war within.

G

[Neil D]

I read this verse this morning. "What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you? You want something but don't get it" (James 4).

According to James, war in the church is preceded by war within.

G

I understand this, but what bothers me is that people like yourselves PRESUME that this is happening in other people...that that those people, who are arguing with you, have some conflict within themselves and are fighting the Holy Spirit within them.

What hasn't dawned on you is that there is no conflict...We have come to the Lord asking for His will....and thru our studies, we have come to the conclusion that WO is a valid concern of the church, a fairness to the female gender who have born this injustice since the fall...It is time to remove the stigma...it is time to remove the blame that women caused the fall....It is time to place the responsibility of our fall on both sexes equally, that one gender does not have a better advantage in the battle against Satan...nor does one sex have a better advantage in understanding the consequences.

It appears that you want to maintain that status quo, keep the blame on women, spread the presumptive comments of others who are struggling with the Holy Spirit when there is no conflict, no blame and remove a better relationship...

[Tom Wetmore]

Good point. It seems that this can apply just as much to one side as the other. At this point it seems most evident to me that those who continue to resist moving forward on this issue are most likely to have an internal struggle over the very idea of change, progress, equality, accepting that we truly are alone in Christ, or ...

[ClubV12]

Tom makes the assumption we are "moving forward", some of us think we are "moving backward". :)

[olger]

What hasn't dawned on you is that there is no conflict...We have come to the Lord asking for His will

[Tom Wetmore]

Not so sure you are identifying which side does at editing. I see a great deal of editorializing coming from your side of the debate, like adding the new concept that Adam was the "federal" head of humanity. Not sure exactly what you mean, but I get the picture. Would his headship amounted to anything without woman? Genesis states that God created "adam", male and female, he created them. Whatever adam was, it included both man and woman.

EGW states that Adam and Eve were created equal, so maybe this egalitarian stuff is her fault. Doesn't seem so much a change to Adventism as recalling it to its historic roots. And speaking of EGW, in her time the very plain words of Scripture you are referring to were used to try to silence her because she was a woman. Not too successfully though.

[Tom Wetmore]

Tom makes the assumption we are "moving forward", some of us think we are "moving backward".

Interesting concept this idea of progress and whether it is moving forward or backward. I can see it both ways, since in a sense we are going back to our Adventist historic roots of a greater role of women in ministry and leadership. And then there is the Biblical concept of repentance ("revival" as being stressed now). The literal meaning of the Hebrew word for repentance was "to turn around and go back in that direction, i.e., moving backward.

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

What hasn't dawned on you is that there is no conflict...We have come to the Lord asking for His will

God's will is made plain in the Scriptures.

[ClubV12]

Faith without works is dead faith, it means nothing. Saved by faith doesn't mean you put your feet up on the coffee table because "once saved, always saved".

The problem your having, Neil, is your inability to understand HOW works are a balanced part of the plan of salvation and how they are intimately linked to faith. You see only legalism and judge and condem those who DO understand what you don't, how works, work.

And by the way, Ellen White is not conclusive on the subject of W.O., except in your mind as you think you see it. Trust me, many other people DON'T see her quotes in the same way you do. I know, shocking aint it...

[Neil D]

Faith without works is dead faith, it means nothing. Saved by faith doesn't mean you put your feet up on the coffee table because "once saved, always saved".

The problem your having, Neil, is your inability to understand HOW works are a balanced part of the plan of salvation and how they are intimately linked to faith. You see only legalism and judge and condem those who DO understand what you don't, how works, work.

And by the way, Ellen White is not conclusive on the subject of W.O., except in your mind as you think you see it. Trust me, many other people DON'T see her quotes in the same way you do. I know, shocking aint it...

I tend to believe that all other religions are ultimately works orientated. Christianity is the only religion that professes that one who believes in the redemption that God provides thru the concept of Righteousness by Faith, and corresponding behavioral response [admittedly communicated poorly], that person shall be saved by Someone outside of himself...

And your response is a bit touchy, don't you think? And yes, I do think you tend to be a bit works orientated...but that is a growth problem, and not mine to correct and I don't intend to....However, if you seem a bit upset over this, perhaps it is not me that you wrestling....And since I am aware of various religions, and thier "in's and out's", I am not surprised that others don't see EGW the way I do...

[CoAspen]

Quote:

The problem your having, Neil, is your inability to understand HOW works are a balanced part of the plan of salvation and how they are intimately linked to faith.

Problem? Really? Address his point instead of attacking him for pointing out an obvious problem, with his reply, about women being saved by childbirth.