baa baa baaaa....

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Pastors/ministers are compared to shepherds pastoring the "flock", just as Christ is said to be "the Good Shepherd."

It's interesting to note that shepherding during biblical times, and thereafter, was/is not solely the domain of men. Women were shepherds, too, as stated in scripture... So, even now, they are shepherds.

If anyone has been trained and knows how to keep the flock safe, it really doesn't matter if the shepherd is a man or a woman...

at least, that's how it appears to me...

[Green Cochoa]

If anyone has been trained and knows how to keep the flock safe, it really doesn't matter if the shepherd is a man or a woman...

at least, that's how it appears to me...

[cricket]

And of course, your opinion is just....opinion. For something of this nature, more than opinion is required, don't you think so?

So, let's turn to another woman, one of the Adventist's most popular and esteemed shepherd of them all...Mrs. Ellen White.

[Tom Wetmore]

Sometimes so obvious it is totally overlooked as if not really true...

Sometimes the most obviously profound truths are too simple to be fully appreciated. "Baa baa baaaa" indeed!! The sheep know His voice.

As for the Adventist mother shepherd, she used the words frequently interchangeably. She said "It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God."

No opinion required to understand that simple unambiguous statement.

[Green Cochoa]

Sometimes so obvious it is totally overlooked as if not really true...

Sometimes the most obviously profound truths are too simple to be fully appreciated. "Baa baa baaaa" indeed!! The sheep know His voice.

As for the Adventist mother shepherd, she used the words frequently interchangeably. She said "It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God."

No opinion required to understand that simple unambiguous statement.

[Tom Wetmore]

Seems as EGW describes it more than merely his helper, but an equal partner in ministry. She also said that the woman who so labors in the gospel should not be expect to volunteer her time as so many minister's wives are still expected to do, but should be paid just as her husband is. And she describes that also in terms of equal pay for equal work.

I think you miss her point. What do you think she meant by the quote I posted from 6T322?

"It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God."

[Green Cochoa]

Seems as EGW describes it more than merely his helper, but an equal partner in ministry. She also said that the woman who so labors in the gospel should not be expect to volunteer her time as so many minister's wives are still expected to do, but should be paid just as her husband is. And she describes that also in terms of equal pay for equal work.

I think you miss her point. What do you think she meant by the quote I posted from 6T322?

"It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God."

[Tom Wetmore]

Green,

I am not questioning the Biblical usage and meaning. I question whether you are genuinely using it in the same way when you refer to the wife of a minister as his helper. The English connotation of helper is one in a lesser position or status or role assisting a person in a superior position, status or role.

That is not the meaning in the Hebrew or even the Greek. It is more of a benefactor assisting from a superior position, or an equal partner in the same role, position or status - a coworker. That was the Hebrew meaning of the word in Genesis translated in the KJV regarding the woman created as the helpmeet to Adam. And you are quite correct it is the same Hebrew word used to describe God as the one who helps us. Clearly not a subordinate role.

What I described as an equal relationship is the sense it is used in Scripture. Is that what you meant?

And you still are ignoring the quote.

[nuff sed]

When we went out to the "Mission Field" the second time we were told that the 'appointment' was for husband and wife but only the husband was paid...Nuff Sed

[Neil D]

When we went out to the "Mission Field" the second time we were told that the 'appointment' was for husband and wife but only the husband was paid...Nuff Sed

And going against the writing of EGW at the conference level shows a hypocritical attitude against the sound common sense. It is the bean counters who muck up the missionary's pay...It's no wonder that there is "missionary burnout".....

[Green Cochoa]

Green,

I am not questioning the Biblical usage and meaning. I question whether you are genuinely using it in the same way when you refer to the wife of a minister as his helper. The English connotation of helper is one in a lesser position or status or role assisting a person in a superior position, status or role.

That is not the meaning in the Hebrew or even the Greek. It is more of a benefactor assisting from a superior position, or an equal partner in the same role, position or status - a coworker. That was the Hebrew meaning of the word in Genesis translated in the KJV regarding the woman created as the helpmeet to Adam. And you are quite correct it is the same Hebrew word used to describe God as the one who helps us. Clearly not a subordinate role.

What I described as an equal relationship is the sense it is used in Scripture. Is that what you meant?

And you still are ignoring the quote.

Tom,

Scripture does not describe a relationship between a man and his wife in which they have equal roles. Does God love them equally? Certainly. Are they equally important in His work? Maybe so, or maybe the wife's job as mother actually is more important than her husband's work in some ways. For now, let's presume they have jobs of equal importance.

But, to say that they are equal in authority in the home would be to plainly disregard the scriptures.

"For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. " (Ephesians 5:23-24)

Is the church equal in authority to Christ? Yet Paul tells us that the relationship between a man and his wife is like the relationship of Christ and His church.

A few verses later we find this: "Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband." (Ephesians 5:33)

Perhaps the church of today no longer wishes to reverence Christ. Perhaps there is a spirit of pride, such as Lucifer had in Heaven in desiring to be equal to God. Perhaps modern Eves wish to cast off all restraint just as the first Eve did in eating the forbidden fruit. None of this should cause us to accept error as truth.

Nor is Paul the only one to speak of wives being in subjection to their husbands, for Peter also does so.

"Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives." (1 Peter 3:1)

Women are further taught to teach the younger women to be obedient to their husbands:

"That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed." (Titus 2:4-5)

But it seems this modern movement would reject the Bible doctrines here, doesn't it?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

[cricket]

Just a note about "bean counters"...accountants and treasurers are only doing their jobs. The pay missionaries receive is based on what the conference heads decide on paying them--not at the "bean counters" discretion. If people have a problem with what missionaries are paid, they need to take it up with the people who are deciding on that pay scale--not the "bean counters."

Now back to your regularly scheduled program...

What of the man and/or the woman who chooses a life of celibacy? Or those who don't "choose" it, but have it cast upon them regardless of choice? What then? No household to be head over and no person to be submissive to? Could those people ever serve God? Or...

[Tom Wetmore]

Still avoiding the point. And the EGW quote.

Do you accept what Ellen White said that both men and woman may become pastors of the church with God's blessing?

[Green Cochoa]

I think you're avoiding the Bible's stand on the topic, Tom. It is clear in the Bible that the husband is the head of his wife.

As for Mrs. White's quote? She certainly calls for more women to join in the service of the church. What duties does Mrs. White assign women, Tom? Do you know?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

[Johann]

When I entered the ministry back in 1958 I found a number of former pastors in various churches who had been "fired" because they had not been able to produce the required 20 souls a year for baptism. Further investigation showed that those who survived and remained in the ministry either had a wife or Bible worker who had the ability of going into the homes and helping the families. These helped produce the required souls for baptism - and these seem to be the women Ellen White said should receive the laying on of hands - or ordination.

[Tom Wetmore]

I have heard that this is still commonly the fact in areas where woman are not allowed to be pastors and WO is most opposed. It is often women doing most of the real evangelism bringing souls to Christ. But since they are not permitted to do baptisms, the male pastors that have done none of the work and have little or no pastoral relationship with the new convert do the baptisms and get the credit. I have also heard reports that not only are these pastors jobs on the line if they don't have enough baptisms to their credit, they are rewarded for baptisms with extra perks, bonuses, etc., and those who baptize high enough numbers get promotions and special appointments.

I am not apposed to appropriate recognition and incentives, but when they are getting credit for others efforts, that is wrong.

[ClubV12]

Getting credit for a baptism, thats a tough one. There was an elderly couple I sat next to at the evangelistic meetings I attended. They sat up front, like myself, we were hard of hearing. Every night there they were, we became friends. One night I was ready to walk, done with the meetings. They convinced me to stay.

Then I studied with an Elder and was eventually baptized. The Pastor asked the Elder to stand and be recognized for his efforts working with me. I felt sad for my two elderly friends who were the key to my remaining in the meetings.

I suppose the evangelist got the credit in the end, but it took a "village" to get through those doors.

[Kevin H]

Getting credit for a baptism, thats a tough one. There was an elderly couple I sat next to at the evangelistic meetings I attended. They sat up front, like myself, we were hard of hearing. Every night there they were, we became friends. One night I was ready to walk, done with the meetings. They convinced me to stay.

Then I studied with an Elder and was eventually baptized. The Pastor asked the Elder to stand and be recognized for his efforts working with me. I felt sad for my two elderly friends who were the key to my remaining in the meetings.

I suppose the evangelist got the credit in the end, but it took a "village" to get through those doors.

Don't know how to post the huge smiles and/or thumbs up here, but I love your post here ClubV12!!!

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

Getting credit for a baptism, thats a tough one. There was an elderly couple I sat next to at the evangelistic meetings I attended. They sat up front, like myself, we were hard of hearing. Every night there they were, we became friends. One night I was ready to walk, done with the meetings. They convinced me to stay.

Then I studied with an Elder and was eventually baptized. The Pastor asked the Elder to stand and be recognized for his efforts working with me. I felt sad for my two elderly friends who were the key to my remaining in the meetings.

I suppose the evangelist got the credit in the end, but it took a "village" to get through those doors.

Don't know how to post the huge smiles and/or thumbs up here, but I love your post here ClubV12!!!

Kevin at the top left corner of this box is a yellow smiley, just click on it and you will see a bunch more smilies.

[Johann]

Getting credit for a baptism, thats a tough one. There was an elderly couple I sat next to at the evangelistic meetings I attended. They sat up front, like myself, we were hard of hearing. Every night there they were, we became friends. One night I was ready to walk, done with the meetings. They convinced me to stay.

Then I studied with an Elder and was eventually baptized. The Pastor asked the Elder to stand and be recognized for his efforts working with me. I felt sad for my two elderly friends who were the key to my remaining in the meetings.

I suppose the evangelist got the credit in the end, but it took a "village" to get through those doors.

During the first half of the past century it was frequently the women who led the souls to Christ, but the male, who needed so desperately the records so that he could be ordained, got the credit. Ellen White suggested these women be ordained, but the stubborn males refused to listen to her, because they needed the credit.

That is a sad history. How long will it take to undo it?