2015 W.O. Vote

[scott.t]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

South Africa-Indian Ocean Division, "No".

This is the second largest Division in the world.

Surprising! Most of the countries in that division are world leaders in gender equality!

This seems to basically speak to how this issue is voted/thought on.

Regions in the world were women are thought of as equal vote yes,regions were women are not thought as equal vote no.

Scott

[ClubV12]

Olger makes a good point, this is very rough, speculation even, as to how the vote may come about. We can safely assume not all the delegates are going to vote "the party line" of their Division.

I'm just crunching numbers, bad data in, bad data out. I'm watching that dark horse, ol' #219. :)

[Neil D]

I'm just crunching numbers, bad data in, bad data out. I'm watching that dark horse, ol' #219.

My father did some programing...He used to say that "To err is human...but to really mess things up, you need a computer."

...and the other thing he used to tell me was "garbage in, garbage out"....

[lazarus]

The vote is already moot.

[ClubV12]

A bit of a confusing post Lazarus, why do you think the vote is "moot"?

Inter American Division PROJECTED vote has been changed to "unknown". This removes from the data base 345 votes.

Leaving the current known projected vote at:

466 YES

818 NO

Perhaps Olgers theory the vote won't be that close has some merit!

[lazarus]

A bit of a confusing post Lazarus, why do you think the vote is "moot"?

.....of little or no practical value or meaning.

If the world church votes against ordination women will still continue to be ordained. If the world church votes in favor women still continue to be ordained.

[ClubV12]

I see what you mean, and I concur. There is no respect for authority already, as demonstrated by some Conferences and higher. For these groups the vote is indeed moot.

For those that are determined to disrespect the authority of the Church, it matters not what side your on for W.O. It only matters if you will honor God by honoring His chosen leadership. Do you trust Him, or not? In the end, that will be the question each will have to answer for themselves.

Many will be deluded on this very point, thinking they ARE doing the will of God and sincerely working toward that end. Just as it has always been. Even when Gods servants were martyred by zealous, religious, sincere people who thought they were doing Gods work.

Same, same, the vote will serve to reveal character, not shape it.

[Neil D]

Many will be deluded on this very point, thinking they ARE doing the will of God and sincerely working toward that end. Just as it has always been. Even when Gods servants were martyred by zealous, religious, sincere people who thought they were doing Gods work.

Same, same, the vote will serve to reveal character, not shape it.

When I went to Korea, I learned a lot about how to treat people and recieve respect. In Korea, the ideal common person was the Korean business man, in a 3 piece suit walking down mainstreet with his wife carrying his luggage about 10 steps behind him... That was the ideal....

Perhaps, since the world conference deals with different cultures, it realizes that it can not make policy unless all cultures are in agreement... So, in order to facilitate change, it allows divisions to make innovations that would allow those same divisions to experiment with different methods thru a different understanding of scripture because thier culture is different...

Just my thoughts....I have my asbestos metal suit on now. You may commence with the fiery stoning....

[lazarus]

Many will be deluded on this very point, thinking they ARE doing the will of God and sincerely working toward that end. Just as it has always been. Even when Gods servants were martyred by zealous, religious, sincere people who thought they were doing Gods work.

.

The GC is not infallible. It was not infallible in the 1960's & 70's. It is not infallible now.

[ClubV12]

Is the Supreme Court of the USA infallible? Does it matter?

Once you reach the "highest authority" who will you appeal to? This is the case with the G.C., they are the highest authority in the Church. When in session AND properly represented by members from around the world, THEN they are the highest authority on earth. What so ever is bound on earth is bound in heaven. It's not just the law of the Church, it is the law of God. And that position is sanctioned and approved of by the prophetess of the Church, a divinely inspired messenger. Moses was not infallible either, but he was the highest authority. If you don't like the law, take the proper steps to change it. Civil disobediance is not a proper step by any measurment. As Korah found out when the earth swallowed him up.

The sentence for rebellion was death, that has not changed, it WILL be carried out. The only thing thats changed is the sentence has been postponed.

Neil I think you might be right. There are to many different cultures for the G.C. to authorize W.O. across the board for the world. What they could do is formulate requirements for ordination in the same way they formulate requirements for Church membership and ordination right now. The Divisions are expected to follow these requirements. The G.C. cannot dictate WHO can be a member, but they CAN and DO stipulate what requirements have to be met on a world wide basis. Modifying the requirements to allow for women at the highest levels of leadership may offer a solution.

[lazarus]

Is the Supreme Court of the USA infallible?

Quote:

Once you reach the "highest authority" who will you appeal to? This is the case with the G.C., they are the highest authority in the Church.

Your own conscience is higher than any authority on earth. If I believe in all good conscience that the GC's position is wrong then I have the moral duty to do what is right.

Quote:

Moses was not infallible either, but he was the highest authority. If you don't like the law, take the proper steps to change it. Civil disobediance is not a proper step by any measurment.

We would still have a segregated GC cafeteria then.

Was Jesus right to defy the Sanhedrin?

Were Peter and Paul right preach to the gentiles?

Quote:

The sentence for rebellion was death, that has not changed, it WILL be carried out. The only thing thats changed is the sentence has been postponed.

The G.C. cannot dictate WHO can be a member, but they CAN and DO stipulate what requirements have to be met on a world wide basis. Modifying the requirements to allow for women at the highest levels of leadership may offer a solution.

This is the only solution that is workable.

[ClubV12]

Lazarus, Paul concurs with your statement on moral conscience. We must obey God rather than man. If you feel, as some do, the issue of W.O. rises to the level where you cannot condone the actions of the highest authority on earth, you should seriously consider removing yourself from the membership of the Church. No doubt some will. In my opinion this is committing spiritual suicide, but free will is paramount.

On the other hand, Sister Whites counsel advises the members to set aside their cherished ideas and come into harmony with that highest authority on earth. Once that body has spoken there are specific steps, within the organization, to protest and effect change. Openly calling for rebellion or removing your membership is not an option. Murmuring, complaining, as we see right here so often, is not an approved of God method. As the Children of Israel learned and history repeats itself.

"More dangerous are those who regard their disobedience as obedience. God will have order in his work. There are unfaithful men in the ministry, but this does not make the ministry any less the Lord’s means for doing a great work. Those who accuse and disparage the ministry because the work done does not appear to be the work that should be done, are not wise men." KC 153.1

2,400 people from around the world, representing the world Church will make this decision. Will you ignore their authority and place your own above the order instituted by God to guide this Church? That would not be wise.

[Neil D]

On the other hand, Sister Whites counsel advises the members to set aside their cherished ideas and come into harmony with that highest authority on earth. Once that body has spoken there are specific steps, within the organization, to protest and effect change. Openly calling for rebellion or removing your membership is not an option. Murmuring, complaining, as we see right here so often, is not an approved of God method. As the Children of Israel learned and history repeats itself.

"More dangerous are those who regard their disobedience as obedience. God will have order in his work. There are unfaithful men in the ministry, but this does not make the ministry any less the Lord’s means for doing a great work. Those who accuse and disparage the ministry because the work done does not appear to be the work that should be done, are not wise men." KC 153.1

KC? Where/What is "KC"? Don't recognize this abbreviation...In the mean time, I will take the words of Jesus over EGW, any day...

Matthew 18:15 “If your brother or sister sins,[c] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[d] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be[e] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[f] loosed in heaven.

19 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

Spiritual binding is done on the LOCAL level not on the GC level....at least, in this passage.

Matthew 16:16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[c] will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[d] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[e] loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

This kinda points to ONE person, Peter...However, in the spirit of anti-Catholicism, I am willing to allow it to go to the LOCAL church as well...

[ClubV12]

KC, Kress Collection.

The local Church is bound by the rules/laws of the G.C. The principle of binding on earth as bound in heaven applies to all aspects of Church authority. The local Church cannot ordain, baptize or grant membership to any person outside the requirements established by the leadership of the Church. While some HAVE done this, there are consequences. Persons, Pastors even whole Churches have been removed or disbanded as may be required under Church law. This is why ordained Chinese Pastors, men or women, are not recognized by the Seventh-day Adventist Church as being ordained. China does not follow or come into harmony with the world Church guidelines in this regard.

Some independant Churches, following the basic rules, guidelines of the Seventh-day Adventist Church would like to be recognized as official Seventh-day Adventist Churches. This is not possible and those requests have been denied because those Churches are not in full compliance with the requirements with the rules/laws/guidelines. Likewise some people have asked for baptism and been denied. Membership of a baptized person is not automatically granted, it must be voted on by the local Church. I know some people who have been baptized as Seventh-day Adventists, but they are not members of the Adventist Church, for various reasons.

When membership is granted, or disfellowship occurs, what is bound on earth by that local Church is bound in heaven. No less so at the highest level of authority.

[phkrause]

KC, Kress Collection.

Wow, never heard of that! Interesting, thanks for the quote.

[ClubV12]

There are many similiar quotes on this subject, the authority of the Church even when IMPROPERLY applied is very sacred. To fight against or disparage the Church and it's leadership will not be taken lightly.

And yet, the prophet acknowledges, has even openly rebuked, those at the highest levels of leadership. Then she packed her bags and followed their orders anyway! God is no respector of persons, He IS guiding this Church and if it needs to go into Babylon, I will pack my bags and go with it. Like Joshua and Caleb, I will suffer the results of sin in the camp regardless of whether or not I may be responsible. Like David I will pray for MY sins AND the sins of my people. Like Moses I will plead for the delivery of His people.

Note the prophet acknowledges that some in leadership are not right with God, never the less, His work will be done in spite of them!

"There are unfaithful men in the ministry, but this does not make the ministry any less the Lord’s means for doing a great work." Kress Collection

[Neil D]

KC, Kress Collection.

The local Church is bound by the rules/laws of the G.C. The principle of binding on earth as bound in heaven applies to all aspects of Church authority. The local Church cannot ordain, baptize or grant membership to any person outside the requirements established by the leadership of the Church. While some HAVE done this, there are consequences. Persons, Pastors even whole Churches have been removed or disbanded as may be required under Church law. This is why ordained Chinese Pastors, men or women, are not recognized by the Seventh-day Adventist Church as being ordained. China does not follow or come into harmony with the world Church guidelines in this regard.

Some independant Churches, following the basic rules, guidelines of the Seventh-day Adventist Church would like to be recognized as official Seventh-day Adventist Churches. This is not possible and those requests have been denied because those Churches are not in full compliance with the requirements with the rules/laws/guidelines. Likewise some people have asked for baptism and been denied. Membership of a baptized person is not automatically granted, it must be voted on by the local Church. I know some people who have been baptized as Seventh-day Adventists, but they are not members of the Adventist Church, for various reasons.

When membership is granted, or disfellowship occurs, what is bound on earth by that local Church is bound in heaven. No less so at the highest level of authority.

"Kress Collection"??? Who/what is the "Kress Collection"? EGW estate doesnt have that, does it?

I don't know of any church 'bound by rules/laws' of the GC. Especially, spiritual laws uttered by Jesus that were applied to the local church. Perhaps you are saying that the GC usurped that law in which case I would again ask how that is possible...Sounds a bit Catholic to me...

..Now, if you want to know where the local church answers to, it's the conference that they are in...And it's the conference, with consultation from the division that does the dis-fellowshiping of churches...At least, that has been my observation....

[ClubV12]

ALL Seventh-day Adventist Churches MUST follow the basic guidelines/rules/laws of the G.C. Which are carried down through the various levels of the chain of command. Not the Division, not the Union, not the Conference determines WHO can be baptized, let alone become a member. This is by the local Church. Under what authority? Under the authority of the G.C., the Division, the Union, the Conference. At the G.C. level the guidelines are fairly broad, as they must apply to the world Church. The Division may "tweak" them as required, and on down to the Conference for very specific guidelines that may need to be applied to the broader guidelines.

This is perfect order as I see it. It has the proper checks and balances against "micro management" at every level. In fact to STOP "micro management" is precisely WHY this model was chosen. There was a time when the G.C. wielded to much power over even the mundane details of Church law at the local levels. The Church was fairly small at the time, as it grew it became apparent we needed a better plan of organization.

Kress Collection is just another aspect of bringing various letters and quotes by the prophet together. Like the Spalding and Magan collection, same thing, different people bringing various written works together in one collection.

Then there are the "unpublished" works collection, which has not been published, anywhere. Likely never will be. A few, very few, have access to these documents. I have them myself, probably shouldn't have them, don't tell anyone! :)

[CoAspen]

Quote:

"More dangerous are those who regard their disobedience as obedience. God will have order in his work. There are unfaithful men in the ministry, but this does not make the ministry any less the Lord’s means for doing a great work. Those who accuse and disparage the ministry because the work done does not appear to be the work that should be done, are not wise men." KC 153.1

This is in context to what? What is it in reference too? Are you using this quote for 'any' occasion?

[ClubV12]

This particular quote doesn't need context, it is verily the word of the Lord and the meaning is easily understood. In the same way many, but not all, bible verses need context.

Those who regard their disobedinace AS obediance are "more dangerous". To themselves, to the Church. The Church would be better off without them.

This principle applies to many situations in life. The more dangerous opponent in a time of war isn't the enemy you can clearly recognize, it is the spy whom you trust. It is your friend who betrays you. It is Judas kissing Jesus as a sign to take Him prisoner. "Sinister" would be another word I use to describe this condition. You can't put your finger on something that is "sinister", like the effects of smoking over a long period of time. There is no apparent danger in the early stages. Korah, in his rebellion, regarded his disobediance as obediance, yet another example of this principle.

It is those who acknowledge that Ellen White is a prophet and then make her words of "none effect". How? By suggesting that was her "opinion". They might not even be aware of the sinister nature of such statements. But the danger is very real indeed. Or, perhaps they say her words merely reflect the circumstances of her time and don't apply to us, today. THIS, she said, would be the last great deception to come to the Church. Such as these fail to see the principles involved in the counsel, like the bible, principles are eternal. They are not dependant on time or place or context.

Those who will enforce the death decree against Sabbath keepers will believe they are doing Gods work, sincerely and deeply believe it. Such is the power of delusion.

[ClubV12]

Here then is more of the above quote, for your consideration:

"You are not wise enough to work by yourself. He has made you his steward in trust, to prove and try you, even as he did ancient Israel. He will not have his army composed of undisciplined, unsanctified erratic soldiers, who would misrepresent his order and purity." KC 152.6

"How few realize what this really means! It is Satan’s work to lead men into false paths. He will if possible bring in false issues, which lead to a denial of the truth for this time. Those who in thought, word, or deed belittle or disparage the gospel ministry because it does not sustain them in erratic movements are on perilous ground. They need to study the lesson God teaches in the parable of the two sons. Unbelievers do not pretend to obey God. More dangerous are those who regard their disobedience as obedience. God will have order in his work. There are unfaithful men in the ministry, but this does not make the ministry any less the Lord’s means for doing a great work. Those who accuse and disparage the ministry because the work done does not appear to be the work that should be done, are not wise men. {KC 153.1}

Those who think they are pleasing God by obeying some other law than his, and by performing works other than those the gospel has enjoined, are mocking God. They are insulting the Holy One of Israel. Warning after warning has been given. Appeal after appeal is made in the last message of mercy given to the world. Loath to give up, hoping, sorrowfully hoping, Christ knocks for the last time at the door of the heart. Men and women are given a final test. The worst of sinners are to hear the message of mercy. God will prove who will receive his seal or mark." KC 153.2

[olger]

The Adventist church is flying into a box canyon, and the only people who will survive are the humble.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

This particular quote doesn't need context, it is verily the word of the Lord and the meaning is easily understood.

Ah, the arrogance of it all. Quote splatter strikes again!!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Like Moses I will plead for the delivery of His people.

And when they were on there way to deliverance, God still found it necessary to use men of wisdom to develop the best plans of organization.

"“This is not good!” Moses’ father-in-law exclaimed. “You’re going to wear yourself out—and the people, too. This job is too heavy a burden for you to handle all by yourself. Now listen to me, and let me give you a word of advice, and may God be with you. You should continue to be the people’s representative before God, bringing their disputes to him. Teach them God’s decrees, and give them his instructions. Show them how to conduct their lives. But select from all the people some capable, honest men who fear God and hate bribes. Appoint them as leaders over groups of one thousand, one hundred, fifty, and ten. They should always be available to solve the people’s common disputes, but have them bring the major cases to you. Let the leaders decide the smaller matters themselves. They will help you carry the load, making the task easier for you. If you follow this advice, and if God commands you to do so, then you will be able to endure the pressures, and all these people will go home in peace.”

Moses listened to his father-in-law’s advice and followed his suggestions. He chose capable men from all over Israel and appointed them as leaders over the people. He put them in charge of groups of one thousand, one hundred, fifty, and ten. These men were always available to solve the people’s common disputes. They brought the major cases to Moses, but they took care of the smaller matters themselves."

Exodus 18:17-26 NLT

God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Ah, the arrogance of it all. Quote splatter strikes again!!

And this reference of arrogance from one who works in an industry, recognized to be responsible for 195,000 deaths annually, due to medical error.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/11856.php

Quote:

An average of 195,000 people in the USA died due to potentially preventable, in-hospital medical errors in each of the years 2000, 2001 and 2002, according to a new study of 37 million patient records that was released today by HealthGrades, the healthcare quality company.

The HealthGrades Patient Safety in American Hospitals study is the first to look at the mortality and economic impact of medical errors and injuries that occurred during Medicare hospital admissions nationwide from 2000 to 2002. The HealthGrades study applied the mortality and economic impact models developed by Dr. Chunliu Zhan and Dr. Marlene R. Miller in a research study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) in October of 2003. The Zhan and Miller study supported the Institute of Medicine's (IOM) 1999 report conclusion, which found that medical errors caused up to 98,000 deaths annually and should be considered a national epidemic.

"If we could focus our efforts on just four key areas - failure to rescue, bed sores, postoperative sepsis, and postoperative pulmonary embolism - and reduce these incidents by just 20 percent, we could save 39,000 people from dying every year," said Dr. Collier.

God cares! Jesus saves!