2015 W.O. Vote

[ClubV12]

CoAspen, see post #680239 for the entire quote. Here, again, is the part you obviously missed.

"You are not wise enough to work by yourself."

[Neil D]

Kress Collection is just another aspect of bringing various letters and quotes by the prophet together. Like the Spalding and Magan collection, same thing, different people bringing various written works together in one collection.

Then there are the "unpublished" works collection, which has not been published, anywhere. Likely never will be. A few, very few, have access to these documents. I have them myself, probably shouldn't have them, don't tell anyone!

Really?!?!? Sort of like having your own secret collection of EGW writings, eh? Wow...another set of 'EGW writings....

Maybe someone could check on the "Kress Collection" with the White Estate....I have never heard of this, and this is not to say that I have seen every paper/letter that EGW wrote, but I have been made aware of the Spalding and Magan letters...

But this is new....And by using the KC [enter a page number], you can claim some secret knowledge of EGW writings....and know one can check the source...Isn't that convenient?

[Tom Wetmore]

The White Estate does include this collection.

[Neil D]

The White Estate does include this collection.

[Tom Wetmore]

CoAspen, see post #680239 for the entire quote. Here, again, is the part you obviously missed.

"You are not wise enough to work by yourself."

Club, it is NOT the entire quote. It is the parts that you selected to cut and paste here. The first part (KC 152.6) that you posted is about one third of the whole paragraph, just the last 3 sentences. You leave out the first sentence of the next paragraph. It is that sentence that indicates the context. "Serving mammon." But more significantly what specific problem is EGW addressing. The preceding pages of the document show that specific problem. Not really what you seem to wanting to apply you chosen excerpts to.

That is what CoAspen is say about context.

[ClubV12]

Tom, it is enough to see the "context" CoAspen requested. Even at that, I still maintain with this particular quote context is not required, it stands on itself.

To post the ENTIRE section that deals with this issue would take up to much space, in my opinion. There is a sufficient amount, but feel free to post as much as you would like.

The quote is readily available to anyone with a EGW Estate CD.

Specifically, this section address' hygenic restaurants. What specific issue was the bible talking about when it says, "If your Ox falls in the ditch...", on the Sabbath day. One could say, "I don't own an Ox, so it's not relevant to me." It's the PRINCIPLE that is applicable. It doesn't matter WHO is being counseled on the Ox question. It doesn't matter WHO is being counseled by Ellen White. Her testimony was recorded to edify the Church, in the same way the bible was recorded to edify the Church. NOT the specific person being addressed.

This kind of ridiculous scrutiny, by several posters on this thread, is EXACTLY what Ellen White is addressing with this counsel! You get up some minor point and introduce confusion and conflict by making it a central point. This tends to fulfill her prophecy that the last great deception would not be to deny the gift, it would be to make it of "none effect".

Those to blind to see the PRINCIPLE, though you quote the entire book still wouldn't understand.

[ClubV12]

"He (Satan) will if possible bring in false issues, which lead to a denial of the truth for this time." KC

This quote stands alone. Those needing "context" won't understand no matter how much more may be posted.

[Neil D]

Tom, it is enough to see the "context" CoAspen requested. Even at that, I still maintain with this particular quote context is not required, it stands on itself. [snip]

To post the ENTIRE section that deals with this issue would take up to much space, in my opinion.

This kind of ridiculous scrutiny, by several poste, rs on this thread, is EXACTLY what Ellen White is addressing with this counsel! You get up some minor point and introduce confusion and conflict by making it a central point. This tends to fulfill her prophecy that the last great deception would not be to deny the gift, it would be to make it of "none effect".

Those to blind to see the PRINCIPLE, though you quote the entire book still wouldn't understand.

[ClubV12]

Neil, I DID post the context, you just refuse to see it, the principles or the counsel. You bring up a FALSE ISSUE.

I am reminded of another quote, something about pearls and swine...

[Gregory Matthews]

Yes, the Kress Collection is online from the White Estate and it is also in the CD that can be purchased.

Context is critical. References to EGW should be made in a manner that the context can be addressed by all.

[ClubV12]

Gregory, if your not opening a hygenic restaurant, feel free to ignore her counsel, it doesn't apply to you.

People will come up with a hundred reasons to ignore the counsel not only of the spirit of prophecy but the bible as well.

Let me ask you Gregory, do you think this quote needs "context"?

"He (Satan) will if possible bring in false issues, which lead to a denial of the truth for this time." KC

There is a reason they are called "Testimonies to the Church", rather than, testimonies to Brother John, or Mary or Craig or to someone specifically opening a restaurant. They weren't recorded for Gregory or Neil, they are for the Church and for those who appreciate and love said counsel.

[Neil D]

There is a reason they are called "Testimonies to the Church", rather than, testimonies to Brother John, or Mary or Craig or to someone specifically opening a restaurant. They weren't recorded for Gregory or Neil, they are for the Church and for those who appreciate and love said counsel.

Yeah, they didn't want to embarrass Brother John or Mary or Craig or to a specific someone who messed up in the attempt to open a restaurant.

Perhaps I need to just post this from the Kress Collection-

The Lord has not ordered some of the arrangements that have been made in Battle Creek. He has declared that other places have been robbed of the light KC 1

Do you need just that or should the rest of paragraph be posted thru clarification-

and advantages that have been centered and multiplied in Battle Creek. Through a circular letter sent out to the leading men and the church elders of our conferences, a call has been made for the names of young men and young women of capability, in order that they may be corresponded with and invited to come to Battle Creek to receive a training for missionary work.

Through the light given in the Testimonies, the Lord has indicated that He does not desire students to be educated in Battle Creek. He instructed us to remove the College from this place. This was done, but the institutions that remained failed of doing what they should have done in sharing with other places the advantage still centered in Battle Creek. The Lord signified His displeasure over this matter by destroying two of the principal institutions remaining thereKC 2:0-1

[ClubV12]

You missed the point Neil...

Does Daniel chapter 11 need an in depth context and study to understand? How about Revelation? Obviously they do.

How about, "He said to them, "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out?"

Do you need context or an in depth explanation of that verse? No, because you, like the people Christ was speaking to, understood the Sabbath. The grasped the PRINCIPLE. What if their CHILD fell in a ditch? Or their mule? Since they were NOT specifically noted, would you leave them in the ditch? Of course not, because you understood the obvious.

How is it that you find even simple statements from the prophet in the spirit of prophecy so difficult to understand?

There is much counsel that stands on it's own. Those unwilling to heed it, to often, cry, "We need context".

Gregory, I would kindly suggest that you are fueling this "cry" for context. While what you say is true, it is misleading others at the same time.

Though one rose from the dead, still you would not believe. You need "context" for that? I don't think so, I believe everyone on this thread knows what Jesus was saying here. Just as the Jews understood His counsel about an ox and a ditch.

[Tom Wetmore]

The real context of the principle, the point EGW was making in the excerpts that you cut and pasted here to further your agenda were not really about starting "hygienic restaurants". You have to go back to the beginning of the document in question entitled "Evil Work". The two words you left out should tell you that. She was very much concerned about the problem of those that were seeking to make personal profit from the health food industry of the Church and from the health message - those "serving mammon" instead of the mission and good work of the Church.

Cutting and pasting bits and pieces that have sufficient ambiguity out of their original context and applying them to whatever hobby horse idea that comes up is indeed something that EGW greatly opposed in the use of her writings.

More specifically here is the problem with what you seem to be doing. You are using these quotes ripped from their original context to bolster and give credibility to your own ideas. It gives the false impression that EGW supports your ideas, that she was addressing the very "evil" that you claim to speaking out against.

But the truth is simply that she was talking about something quite different, some other "evil", in the those quotes. She may well have agreed with what you are going on about, but not in that passage, not in those quotes. To use them as you have is intellectually dishonest, and the irresponsible, if not lazy, use of her writings. It is just using her to serve your ends. Let her words speak for themselves to address the actual issues she was inspired to address. Don't twist them to support your agenda.

[ClubV12]

Your wrong Tom, your sustaining, fostering and encouraging those who lack spiritual common sense to continue the miss the point.

You yourself fail to understand the principles involved here. There is nothing ambigous about this quote Tom.

"He (Satan) will if possible bring in false issues, which lead to a denial of the truth for this time." KC

This one as well is plain and easily understood:

"More dangerous are those who regard their disobedience as obedience. God will have order in his work."

My only "agenda" is common sense. What you are calling "ripped from their context" are simple, to the point, stand alone, words of wisdom.

Would you need context to tell a 10 year old not to play in the street? The thread has been entirely derailed by this ridiculous splitting of hairs, Tom.

[ClubV12]

"Those who accuse and disparage the ministry because the work done does not appear to be the work that should be done, are not wise men." KC 153.1

I concur, those who disparage and attack the ministry because they don't like the way the work is being done are not wise men or women. Simple statement, clear, easy to understand. Counsel from one whom I believe is an inspired messenger of the Lord. No need to shroud it in mystery.

[ClubV12]

Quite the contrary Tom. I have urged others and do myself fully support the process of the committee appointed to review the ordination question.

Some have openly stated they will not abide by it. That the G.C. is like a King, weilding to much power. I point out: There will be 2,400 world wide votes on the issue. Is that not enough to warrant support? No matter what the vote may be?

But I DO concur many quotes that do not require context cut both ways. The purpose of the counsel is that we may see where our own short comings and need of help may be. If the shoe fits, if it doesn't why do you feel compelled need to shoot the messenger? Why do you need to inquire about an "agenda"?

As it concerns my local Church, I note the plain and simple facts of the matter. We have more than a few that attend that Church who openly fight against ANY aspect of the organization of the Adventist Church. Some have been asked to leave and not return, by the Church. I support this action, by the Church. Others have been embraced as precious souls still trying to find the balance in supporting the Church, becoming a member and yet not being blind to realizing in many areas the Church has drifted far from Gods blue print.

The expressions of concern with the G.C., the leadership, the authority of the Church in my opinion are WAY over the top. Rebellion in this regard is in the very air we breath (quoting Ellen White right there). That is my opinion and I concur with her counsel on that observation.

[Neil D]

You missed the point Neil, which is not surprising. You have an inclination to argue some minor point and thus make of none effect the counsel of the Spirit of Prophecy. As do many others. This makes a mockery of Gods counsel to His Church.

Does Daniel chapter 11 need an in depth context and study to understand? How about Revelation? Obviously they do.

How about, "He said to them, "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out?"

Do you need context or an in depth explanation of that verse? No, because you, like the people Christ was speaking to, understood the Sabbath. The grasped the PRINCIPLE. What if their CHILD fell in a ditch? Or their mule? Since they were NOT specifically noted, would you leave them in the ditch? Of course not, because you understood the obvious.

How is it that you find even simple statements from the prophet in the spirit of prophecy so difficult to understand?

There is much counsel that stands on it's own. Those unwilling to heed it, to often, cry, "We need context".

Gregory, I would kindly suggest that you are fueling this "cry" for context. While what you say is true, it is misleading others at the same time.

Though one rose from the dead, still you would not believe. You need "context" for that? I don't think so, I believe everyone on this thread knows what Jesus was is saying here. Just as the Jews understood His counsel about an ox and a ditch.

.....and you say I don't understand....You quoted the verse about throwing pearls before swine....you accuse Greg of fueling the cry for context....

We've tried to explain to you about using basic bible interpretative skills, but you accuse us that "Those unwilling to heed it [counsel], to often, cry, "We need context". " there are too many who make a mistake and think that they know when they don't.....

The bible says to "test the spirits" and your's has been definitely tested by many here....Since you are wise, when you are out with another non-SDA person, and they break out in Glossolalia, what do you do? What if they were an SDA person?

If you were out with a group of SDAs, and y'all met someone who was definitely demon possessed, what do you do?

Same group of SDAs, and one of them says, on the Sabbath, they want to go to the theater to watch some mindless blow'em up movie...Do you go?

And what do you feel about this video-

https://fbstatic-a.akamaihd.net/rsrc.php/v2/y4/r/-PAXP-deijE.gif

Define demon possession...

[Tom Wetmore]

All a matter of perspective that depends on which side of the issue you are on.

Not shooting the messenger, but just pointing out the tendency of the messenger to shoot himself in the foot. No Need to even un-holster my weapon...

As for "rebellion in this regard is in the very air we breath" you are not "quoting Ellen White right there". But you are right to say it is YOUR "opinion". You consistently leave out the one word she always uses in that sentence in conjunction with "rebellion". And it is an important word that distinguishes what she is talking about from what you are claiming. That word is "apostasy". If you will read the full context, she is clearly talking about quite a different situation than what is happening now. Apostasy is not evident in what is happening in this whole WO matter except in your words which seems to suggest it is is only in your mind rather than in fact true.

[ClubV12]

"The spirit of pulling away from fellow laborers, the spirit of disorganization, is in the very air we breathe. By some, all efforts to establish order are regarded as dangerous--as a restriction of personal liberty, and hence to be feared as popery."

Testimonies for the Church, Volume 9, 57.

No context will be provided for this quote Neil, CoAspen, Tom. If you can't understand it there is nothing more I can offer.

[ClubV12]

As Lazarus noted, the vote for many will be "moot". He is spot on with his observation that Divsions on down will continue to do whatever they want to do regardless of what the G.C. asks.

This is the truth and it has been demonstrated. In my opinion, Lazarus is correct, it will be demonstrated again.

Because of this "fact", the quotes I put up specifically deal with this issue, this rebellion against the authority of the G.C. and the danger if this is allowed to continue.