NAD in direct opposition to the G.C.

[ClubV12]

From the Huff Post:

"Leaders of the Seventh-day Adventist Church on Tuesday (Oct. 16) said recent decisions by two regional bodies to allow ordained female pastors were "serious mistakes," and women who are ordained won't be recognized -- at least for now."

"They directly challenge two world Church decisions on the matter of ordination," reads a statement, passed by a 264-25 vote during the Annual Council meeting in Silver Spring, Md. "They create doubts about the importance of collective decision-making as a basic feature of denominational life." Huff Post quoting the G.C. statement.

These Conferences are making a direct challenge to the authority of the Church. NAD has joined in this direct challenge of the authority of the Church by applauding and supporting the election of a woman President.

What do you call a "direct challenge" to a higher authority? A coup? A freedom fight? Civil disobediance? I call it "rebellion".

[ClubV12]

"The prayer of Christ to His Father, contained in the seventeenth chapter of John, is to be our church creed. It shows us that our difference and disunion are dishonoring to God. . . .

No advice or sanction is given in the Word of God to those who believe the third angel’s message to lead them to suppose that they can draw apart. This you may settle with yourselves forever. It is the devising of unsanctified minds that would encourage a state of disunion."

Lift Him Up pg. 296

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

What do you call a "direct challenge" to a higher authority? A coup? A freedom fight? Civil disobediance? I call it "rebellion".

The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall. It remains, while the sinners in Zion will be sifted out—the chaff separated from the precious wheat. This is a terrible ordeal, but nevertheless it must take place.—Selected Messages 2:380 (1886). {LDE 180.5}

As the storm approaches, a large class who have professed faith in the third angel’s message, but have not been sanctified through obedience to the truth, abandon their position and join the ranks of the opposition.—The Great Controversy, 608 (1911). {LDE 180.6}

God’s Faithful Will Be Revealed

The Lord has faithful servants who in the shaking, testing time will be disclosed to view. There are precious ones now hidden who have not bowed the knee to Baal. They have not had the light which has been shining in a concentrated blaze upon you. But it may be under a rough and uninviting exterior the pure brightness of a genuine Christian character will be revealed. In the daytime we look toward heaven but do not see the stars. They are there, fixed in the firmament, but the eye cannot distinguish them. In the night we behold their genuine luster.—Testimonies for the Church 5:80, 81 (1882). {LDE 181.1}

On every occasion that persecution takes place, the witnesses make decisions, either for Christ or against Him. Those who show sympathy for the men wrongly condemned, who are not bitter against them, show their attachment for Christ.—The Signs of the Times, February 20, 1901. {LDE 181.2}

Let opposition arise, let bigotry and intolerance again bear sway, let persecution be kindled, and the half-hearted and hypocritical will waver and yield the faith; but the true Christian will stand firm as a rock, his faith stronger, his hope brighter than in days of prosperity.—The Great Controversy, 602 (1911). {LDE 181.3}

New Converts Will Take the Places of Those Who Leave

Some had been shaken out and left by the way. The careless and indifferent, who did not join with those who prized victory and salvation enough to perseveringly plead and agonize for it, did not obtain it, and they were left behind in darkness, and their places were immediately filled by others taking hold of the truth and coming into the ranks.—Early Writings, 271 (1858). {LDE 182.1}

The broken ranks will be filled up by those represented by Christ as coming in at the eleventh hour. There are many with whom the Spirit of God is striving. The time of God’s destructive judgments is the time of mercy for those who [now] have no opportunity to learn what is truth. Tenderly will the Lord look upon them. His heart of mercy is touched, His hand is still stretched out to save, while the door is closed to those who would not enter. Large numbers will be admitted who in these last days hear the truth for the first time.—Letter 103, 1903. {LDE 182.2}

Standard after standard was left to trail in the dust as company after company from the Lord’s army joined the foe and tribe after tribe from the ranks of the enemy united with the commandment-keeping people of God.—Testimonies for the Church 8:41 (1904). {LDE 182.3}

Even so! Come Lord Jesus!

God Cares! Jesus saves!

[Green Cochoa]

The following includes a readable form of the core material relating to James and Ellen White and their approach to the apostasy in Maine, followed by her words of inspiration regarding that apostasy. The apostasy in Maine was very similar to that which we are observing in the church in NAD and other parts today.

In order to be fair to all in having provided ample context for these statements, this is the entire portion in Testimonies, Volume 1, that relates to this particular apostasy and its handling. I may extract some key portions later, as I have time, but recommend all read it in its full context as able.

Chap. 111 - Sketch of Experience                   From October 21, 1867 to December 22, 1867          Our labor with the Battle Creek church had just closed, and, notwithstanding we were much worn, we had been so refreshed in spirit as we witnessed the good result that we cheerfully joined Brother J. N. Andrews in the long journey to Maine. On the way we held a meeting at Roosevelt, New York. Testimony No. 13 was doing its work, and those brethren who had taken part in the general disaffection were beginning to see things in their true light. This meeting was one of hard labor, in which pointed testimonies were given. Confessions were made, followed by a general turning to the Lord on the part of backsliders and sinners. {1T 643.3}          Our labors in Maine commenced with the Conference at Norridgewock the first of November. The meeting was large. As usual, my husband and myself bore a plain and pointed testimony in favor of truth and proper discipline, and against the different forms of error, confusion, fanaticism, and disorder naturally growing out of a want of such discipline. This testimony was especially applicable to the condition of things in Maine. Disorderly spirits who professed to observe the Sabbath were in rebellion and labored to diffuse the disaffection through the Conference. Satan helped them, and they succeeded to some extent. The details are too painful and of too little general importance to be given here. {1T 644.1}          It may be enough to say at this time that in consequence of this spirit of rebellion, faultfinding, and, with some, a sort of babyish jealousy, murmuring, and complaining, our work in Maine, which might have been done in two weeks, required seven weeks of the most trying, laborious, and disagreeable toil. Five weeks were lost, yes, worse than lost, to the cause in Maine; and our people in other portions of New England, New York, and Ohio were deprived of five general meetings in consequence of our being held in Maine. But as we left that state we were comforted with the fact that all had confessed their rebellion, and that a few had been led to seek the Lord and embrace the truth. The following, relative to ministers, order, and organization, has a special application to the condition of things in Maine. {1T 644.2} Chap. 112 - Ministers, Order, and Organization          Some ministers have fallen into the error that they cannot have liberty in speaking unless they raise their voices to a high pitch and talk loud and fast. Such should understand that noise and loud, hurried speaking are not evidence of the presence of the power of God. It is not the power of the voice that makes the lasting impression. Ministers should be Bible students, and should thoroughly furnish themselves with the reasons of our faith and hope, and then, with full control of the voice and feelings, they should present these in such a manner that the people can calmly weigh them and decide upon the evidences given. And as ministers feel the force of the arguments which they present in the form of solemn, testing truth, they will have zeal and earnestness according to knowledge. The Spirit of God will sanctify to their own souls the truths which they present to others, and they will be watered themselves while they water others. {1T 645.1}          I saw that some of our ministers do not understand how to preserve their strength so as to be able to perform the greatest amount of labor without exhaustion. Ministers should not pray so loud and long as to exhaust their strength. It is not necessary to weary the throat and lungs in prayer. God's ear is ever open to hear the heartfelt petitions of His humble servants, and He does not require them to wear out the organs of speech in addressing Him. It is the perfect trust, the firm reliance, the steady claiming of the promises of God, the simple faith that He is and that He is a rewarder of all those who diligently seek Him, that prevails with God. {1T 645.2}          Ministers should discipline themselves and learn how to perform the greatest amount of labor in the brief period allotted them, and yet preserve a good degree of strength, so that if an extra effort should be required, they may have a reserve of vital force sufficient for the occasion, which they can employ without injuring themselves. Sometimes all the strength they have is needed to put forth effort at a given point, and if they have previously exhausted their fund of strength and cannot command the power to make this effort, all they have done is lost. At times all the mental and physical energies may be drawn upon to make the very strongest stand, to array evidences in the clearest light, and set them before the people in the most pointed manner, and urge them home by the strongest appeals. As souls are on the point of leaving the enemy's ranks and coming up on the Lord's side, the contest is most severe and close. Satan and his angels are unwilling that any who have served under the banner of darkness should take their position under the bloodstained banner of Prince Immanuel. {1T 645.3}          I was shown opposing armies who had endured a painful struggle in battle. The victory was gained by neither, and at length the loyal realize that their strength and force is wearing away, and that they will be unable to silence their enemies unless they make a charge upon them and obtain their instruments of warfare. It is then, at the risk of their lives, that they summon all their powers and rush upon the foe. It is a fearful struggle; but victory is gained, the strongholds are taken. If at the critical period the army is so weak through exhaustion that it is impossible to make the last charge and batter down the enemy's fortifications, the whole struggle of days, weeks, and even months is lost; and many lives are sacrificed and nothing gained. {1T 646.1}          A similar work is before us. Many are convinced that we have the truth, and yet they are held as with iron bands; they dare not risk the consequences of taking their position on the side of truth. Many are in the valley of decision, where special, close, and pointed appeals are necessary to move them to lay down the weapons of their warfare and take their position on the Lord's side. Just at this critical period Satan throws the strongest bands around these souls. If the servants of God are all exhausted, having expended their fund of physical and mental strength, they think they can do no more, and frequently leave the field entirely, to commence operations elsewhere. And all, or nearly all, the time, means, and labor have been spent for nought. Yes, it is worse than if they had never commenced the work in that place, for after the people have been deeply convicted by the Spirit of God, and brought to the point of decision, and are left to lose their interest, and decide against these evidences, they cannot as easily be brought where their minds will again be agitated upon the subject. They have in many cases made their final decision. {1T 646.2}          If ministers would preserve a reserve force, and at the very point where everything seems to move the hardest, then make the most earnest efforts, the strongest appeals, the closest applications, and, like valiant soldiers, at the critical moment make the charge upon the enemy, they would gain the victory. Souls would have strength to break the bands of Satan and make their decisions for everlasting life. Well-directed labor at the right time will make a long-tried effort successful, when to leave the labor even for a few days will in many cases cause an entire failure. Ministers must give themselves as missionaries to the work and learn how to make their efforts to the very best advantage. {1T 647.1}          Some ministers at the very commencement of a series of meetings become very zealous, take on burdens which God does not require them to bear, exhaust their strength in singing and in long, loud praying and talking, and then are worn out and must go home to rest. What was accomplished in that effort? Literally nothing. The laborers had spirit and zeal, but lacked understanding. They manifested no wise generalship. They rode upon the chariot of feeling, but there was not one victory gained against the enemy. His stronghold was not taken. {1T 647.2}          I was shown that ministers of Christ should discipline themselves for the warfare. Greater wisdom is required in generalship in the work of God than is required of the generals engaged in national battles. Ministers of God's choosing are engaged in a great work. They are warring not merely against men, but against Satan and his angels. Wise generalship is required here. They must become Bible students and give themselves wholly to the work. When they commence labor in a place, they should be able to give the reasons of our faith, not in a boisterous manner, not with a perfect storm, but with meekness and fear. The power which will convince is strong arguments presented in meekness and in the fear of God. {1T 647.3}          Able ministers of Christ are required for the work in these last days of peril, able in word and doctrine, acquainted with the Scriptures, and understanding the reasons of our faith. I was directed to these scriptures, the meaning of which has not been realized by some ministers: "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear." "Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man." "And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." {1T 648.1}          The man of God, the minister of Christ, is required to be thoroughly furnished unto all good works. A pompous minister, all dignity, is not needed for this good work. But decorum is necessary in the desk. A minister of the gospel should not be regardless of his attitude. If he is the representative of Christ, his deportment, his attitude, his gestures, should be of such a character as will not strike the beholder with disgust. Ministers should possess refinement. They should discard all uncouth manners, attitudes, and gestures, and should encourage in themselves humble dignity of bearing. They should be clothed in a manner befitting the dignity of their position. Their speech should be in every respect solemn and well chosen. I was shown that it is wrong to make coarse, irreverent expressions, relate anecdotes to amuse, or present comic illustrations to create a laugh. Sarcasm and playing upon the words of an opponent are all out of God's order. Ministers should not feel that they can make no improvement in voice or manners; much can be done. The voice can be cultivated so that quite lengthy speaking will not injure the vocal organs. {1T 648.2}          Ministers should love order and should discipline themselves, and then they can successfully discipline the church of God and teach them to work harmoniously like a well-drilled company of soldiers. If discipline and order are necessary for successful action on the battlefield, the same are as much more needful in the warfare in which we are engaged as the object to be gained is of greater value and more elevated in character than those for which opposing forces contend upon the field of battle. In the conflict in which we are engaged, eternal interests are at stake. {1T 649.1}          Angels work harmoniously. Perfect order characterizes all their movements. The more closely we imitate the harmony and order of the angelic host, the more successful will be the efforts of these heavenly agents in our behalf. If we see no necessity for harmonious action, and are disorderly, undisciplined, and disorganized in our course of action, angels, who are thoroughly organized and move in perfect order, cannot work for us successfully. They turn away in grief, for they are not authorized to bless confusion, distraction, and disorganization. All who desire the co-operation of the heavenly messengers must work in unison with them. Those who have the unction from on high will in all their efforts encourage order, discipline, and union of action, and then the angels of God can co-operate with them. But never, never will these heavenly messengers place their endorsement upon irregularity, disorganization, and disorder. All these evils are the result of Satan's efforts to weaken our forces, to destroy courage, and prevent successful action. {1T 649.2}          Satan well knows that success can only attend order and harmonious action. He well knows that everything connected with heaven is in perfect order, that subjection and thorough discipline mark the movements of the angelic host. It is his studied effort to lead professed Christians just as far from heaven's arrangement as he can; therefore he deceives even the professed people of God and makes them believe that order and discipline are enemies to spirituality, that the only safety for them is to let each pursue his own course, and to remain especially distinct from bodies of Christians who are united and are laboring to establish discipline and harmony of action. All the efforts made to establish order are considered dangerous, a restriction of rightful liberty, and hence are feared as popery. These deceived souls consider it a virtue to boast of their freedom to think and act independently. They will not take any man's say-so. They are amenable to no man. I was shown that it is Satan's special work to lead men to feel that it is in God's order for them to strike out for themselves and choose their own course, independent of their brethren. {1T 650.1}          I was pointed back to the children of Israel. Very soon after leaving Egypt they were organized and most thoroughly disciplined. God had in His special providence qualified Moses to stand at the head of the armies of Israel. He had been a mighty warrior to lead the armies of the Egyptians, and in generalship he could not be surpassed by any man. The Lord did not leave His holy tabernacle to be borne indiscriminately by any tribe that might choose. He was so particular as to specify the order He would have observed in bearing the sacred ark and to designate a special family of the tribe of the Levites to bear it. When it was for the good of the people and for the glory of God that they should pitch their tents in a certain place, God signified His will to them by causing the pillar of cloud to rest directly over the tabernacle, where it remained until He would have them journey again. In all their journeyings they were required to observe perfect order. Every tribe bore a standard with the sign of their father's house upon it, and each tribe was required to pitch under its own standard. When the ark moved, the armies journeyed, the different tribes marching in order, under their own standards. The Levites were designated by the Lord as the tribe in the midst of whom the sacred ark was to be borne, Moses and Aaron marching just in front of the ark, and the sons of Aaron following near them, each bearing trumpets. They were to receive directions from Moses, which they were to signify to the people by speaking through the trumpets. These trumpets gave special sounds which the people understood, and directed their movements accordingly. {1T 650.2}          A special signal was first given by the trumpeters to call the attention of the people; then all were to be attentive and obey the certain sound of the trumpets. There was no confusion of sound in the voices of the trumpets, therefore there was no excuse for confusion in movements. The head officer of each company gave definite directions in regard to the movements they were required to make, and none who gave attention were left in ignorance of what they were to do. If any failed to comply with the requirements given by the Lord to Moses, and by Moses to the people, they were punished with death. It would be no excuse to plead that they knew not the nature of these requirements, for they would only prove themselves willingly ignorant, and would receive the just punishment for their transgression. If they did not know the will of God concerning them, it was their own fault. They had the same opportunities to obtain the knowledge imparted as others of the people had, therefore their sin of not knowing, not understanding, was as great in the sight of God as if they had heard and then transgressed. {1T 651.1}          The Lord designated a special family of the tribe of Levi to bear the ark; and others of the Levites were specially appointed of God to bear the tabernacle and all its furniture, and to perform the work of setting up and taking down the tabernacle. And if any man from curiosity or from lack of order got out of his place and touched any part of the sanctuary or furniture, or even came near any of the workmen, he was to be put to death. God did not leave His holy tabernacle to be borne, erected, and taken down, indiscriminately, by any tribe who might choose the office; but persons were chosen who could appreciate the sacredness of the work in which they were engaged. These men appointed of God were directed to impress upon the people the special sacredness of the ark and all that appertained thereunto, lest they should look upon these things without realizing their holiness and should be cut off from Israel. All things pertaining to the most holy place were to be looked upon with reverence. {1T 652.1}          The travels of the children of Israel are faithfully described; the deliverance which the Lord wrought for them, their perfect organization and special order, their sin in murmuring against Moses and thus against God, their transgressions, their rebellions, their punishments, their carcasses strewn in the wilderness because of their unwillingness to submit to God's wise arrangements--this faithful picture is hung up before us as a warning lest we follow their example of disobedience and fall like them. {1T 652.2}          "But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." Has God changed from a God of order? No; He is the same in the present dispensation as in the former. Paul says: "God is not the author of confusion, but of peace." He is as particular now as then. And He designs that we should learn lessons of order and organization from the perfect order instituted in the days of Moses for the benefit of the children of Israel. {1T 652.3}

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

[olger]

From the Huff Post:

"Leaders of the Seventh-day Adventist Church on Tuesday (Oct. 16) said recent decisions by two regional bodies to allow ordained female pastors were "serious mistakes," and women who are ordained won't be recognized -- at least for now."

"They directly challenge two world Church decisions on the matter of ordination," reads a statement, passed by a 264-25 vote during the Annual Council meeting in Silver Spring, Md. "They create doubts about the importance of collective decision-making as a basic feature of denominational life." Huff Post quoting the G.C. statement.

These Conferences are making a direct challenge to the authority of the Church. NAD has joined in this direct challenge of the authority of the Church by applauding and supporting the election of a woman President.

What do you call a "direct challenge" to a higher authority? A coup? A freedom fight? Civil disobediance? I call it "rebellion".

Thanks Club. It is rebellion, the outworking of pride. The evidence of the NAD rebellion will be manifest to all, soon. Proverbs says that "the rebellious dwell in a dry land." Nothing grows in a dry land.

The Bible further states that rebellion is linked to witchcraft. Those who imbibe this spirit against the GC will also be irresistibly drawn to the occult as a way to get 'power.' Hence the absolute fascination in the NAD for mystical spiritual formation. Sandra Roberts blends those two elements together in one package. No surprise there.

`G

[Johann]

It seems obvious that a number of delegates to the GC Autumn Council who have voted for their Divisional recommendation to ordain women in the future have voted for this statement by the Autumn Council. These seem to be the people who find a solid support for the ordination of women in Scripture, but who agree with the leadership of the church that this ordination should not take place until it has been accepted by the GC, either that it can take place anywhere in the world, or within the divisions where it is found acceptable.

This is the recommendation of the TED, where a number of women and men are now waiting for their ordination to take place in the future. Here are also men who have accepted the temporal assignment confident that the ordination regardless of gender will be approved in the near future.

[Green Cochoa]

Johann,

It was rebellion against God's authority in the days of Samuel that brought Israel a king. It is rebellion among His people now which are bringing in a new thing in Israel. It may happen. It is not, however, because Scripture supports it. Scripture doesn't support women's ordination any more than it supports God's people having a king to rule over them.

However, once God established the king, in answer to Israel's rebellious requests, the order of things was changed. No longer was Plan A to be followed, but Plan B was in place. Plan B was not the best plan, and caused a great deal of hardship to the people. Such will again be the case should the church elect to move ahead with this modern rebellion.

Mark my words.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

[Green Cochoa]

In the following, I have shortened the passage I earlier quoted, and have added my comments to certain portions of it. As it's a little shorter, I've also removed it from the scrolling window. My comments are set apart by the text boxes.

Chap. 111 - Sketch of Experience ...          Our labors in Maine commenced with the Conference at Norridgewock the first of November. The meeting was large. As usual, my husband and myself bore a plain and pointed testimony in favor of truth and proper discipline, and against the different forms of error, confusion, fanaticism, and disorder naturally growing out of a want of such discipline. This testimony was especially applicable to the condition of things in Maine. Disorderly spirits who professed to observe the Sabbath were in rebellion and labored to diffuse the disaffection through the Conference. Satan helped them, and they succeeded to some extent. The details are too painful and of too little general importance to be given here. {1T 644.1} Note that Mrs. White refers to Sabbath-keepers, i.e. Seventh-day Adventists, being helped by Satanic forces to "rebellion" and "disaffection." She dedicates her subsequent chapter to addressing just this sort of apostasy.          It may be enough to say at this time that in consequence of this spirit of rebellion, faultfinding, and, with some, a sort of babyish jealousy, murmuring, and complaining, our work in Maine, which might have been done in two weeks, required seven weeks of the most trying, laborious, and disagreeable toil. Five weeks were lost, yes, worse than lost, to the cause in Maine; and our people in other portions of New England, New York, and Ohio were deprived of five general meetings in consequence of our being held in Maine. But as we left that state we were comforted with the fact that all had confessed their rebellion, and that a few had been led to seek the Lord and embrace the truth. The following, relative to ministers, order, and organization, has a special application to the condition of things in Maine. {1T 644.2} Here Mrs. White expressly indicates the purpose of her following message, and that this message was inspired by the rebellion in Maine. Read more below. Chap. 112 - Ministers, Order, and Organization ...          Ministers should love order and should discipline themselves, and then they can successfully discipline the church of God and teach them to work harmoniously like a well-drilled company of soldiers. If discipline and order are necessary for successful action on the battlefield, the same are as much more needful in the warfare in which we are engaged as the object to be gained is of greater value and more elevated in character than those for which opposing forces contend upon the field of battle. In the conflict in which we are engaged, eternal interests are at stake. {1T 649.1}          Angels work harmoniously. Perfect order characterizes all their movements. The more closely we imitate the harmony and order of the angelic host, the more successful will be the efforts of these heavenly agents in our behalf. If we see no necessity for harmonious action, and are disorderly, undisciplined, and disorganized in our course of action, angels, who are thoroughly organized and move in perfect order, cannot work for us successfully. They turn away in grief, for they are not authorized to bless confusion, distraction, and disorganization. All who desire the co-operation of the heavenly messengers must work in unison with them. Those who have the unction from on high will in all their efforts encourage order, discipline, and union of action, and then the angels of God can co-operate with them. But never, never will these heavenly messengers place their endorsement upon irregularity, disorganization, and disorder. All these evils are the result of Satan's efforts to weaken our forces, to destroy courage, and prevent successful action. {1T 649.2} This passage has clearly outlined the source of the "disorder," "distraction," and "confusion" we see in the church today. In other places, Mrs. White has told us that nothing should be allowed to eclipse the message of the third angel--but the ordination movement is certainly displacing our focus today.          Satan well knows that success can only attend order and harmonious action. He well knows that everything connected with heaven is in perfect order, that subjection and thorough discipline mark the movements of the angelic host. It is his studied effort to lead professed Christians just as far from heaven's arrangement as he can; therefore he deceives even the professed people of God and makes them believe that order and discipline are enemies to spirituality, that the only safety for them is to let each pursue his own course, and to remain especially distinct from bodies of Christians who are united and are laboring to establish discipline and harmony of action. All the efforts made to establish order are considered dangerous, a restriction of rightful liberty, and hence are feared as popery. These deceived souls consider it a virtue to boast of their freedom to think and act independently. They will not take any man's say-so. They are amenable to no man. I was shown that it is Satan's special work to lead men to feel that it is in God's order for them to strike out for themselves and choose their own course, independent of their brethren. {1T 650.1} We see many people in the church today who exhibit this "free spirit" of independence, and who make disrespectful claims of our church president, Elder Ted Wilson, that he is acting as a pope. Mrs. White predicted this very sort of speech would come from those who are rebelling and on Satan's side.          I was pointed back to the children of Israel. Very soon after leaving Egypt they were organized and most thoroughly disciplined. God had in His special providence qualified Moses to stand at the head of the armies of Israel. He had been a mighty warrior to lead the armies of the Egyptians, and in generalship he could not be surpassed by any man. The Lord did not leave His holy tabernacle to be borne indiscriminately by any tribe that might choose. He was so particular as to specify the order He would have observed in bearing the sacred ark and to designate a special family of the tribe of the Levites to bear it. When it was for the good of the people and for the glory of God that they should pitch their tents in a certain place, God signified His will to them by causing the pillar of cloud to rest directly over the tabernacle, where it remained until He would have them journey again. In all their journeyings they were required to observe perfect order. Every tribe bore a standard with the sign of their father's house upon it, and each tribe was required to pitch under its own standard. When the ark moved, the armies journeyed, the different tribes marching in order, under their own standards. The Levites were designated by the Lord as the tribe in the midst of whom the sacred ark was to be borne, Moses and Aaron marching just in front of the ark, and the sons of Aaron following near them, each bearing trumpets. They were to receive directions from Moses, which they were to signify to the people by speaking through the trumpets. These trumpets gave special sounds which the people understood, and directed their movements accordingly. {1T 650.2} God's government has always been one of organization and order, and God's leaders are to be respected. God Himself gave directions regarding who could serve as the spiritual leaders of His people, and He is the same God of order today.          A special signal was first given by the trumpeters to call the attention of the people; then all were to be attentive and obey the certain sound of the trumpets. There was no confusion of sound in the voices of the trumpets, therefore there was no excuse for confusion in movements. The head officer of each company gave definite directions in regard to the movements they were required to make, and none who gave attention were left in ignorance of what they were to do. If any failed to comply with the requirements given by the Lord to Moses, and by Moses to the people, they were punished with death. It would be no excuse to plead that they knew not the nature of these requirements, for they would only prove themselves willingly ignorant, and would receive the just punishment for their transgression. If they did not know the will of God concerning them, it was their own fault. They had the same opportunities to obtain the knowledge imparted as others of the people had, therefore their sin of not knowing, not understanding, was as great in the sight of God as if they had heard and then transgressed. {1T 651.1} Many today are without excuse for their miscomprehension of God's order.          The Lord designated a special family of the tribe of Levi to bear the ark; and others of the Levites were specially appointed of God to bear the tabernacle and all its furniture, and to perform the work of setting up and taking down the tabernacle. And if any man from curiosity or from lack of order got out of his place and touched any part of the sanctuary or furniture, or even came near any of the workmen, he was to be put to death. God did not leave His holy tabernacle to be borne, erected, and taken down, indiscriminately, by any tribe who might choose the office; but persons were chosen who could appreciate the sacredness of the work in which they were engaged. These men appointed of God were directed to impress upon the people the special sacredness of the ark and all that appertained thereunto, lest they should look upon these things without realizing their holiness and should be cut off from Israel. All things pertaining to the most holy place were to be looked upon with reverence. {1T 652.1} Mrs. White further elaborates here on the "special family" that God had chosen, and points out that if anyone who was not of that special family attempted to take the family's positions, they were to be put to death!          The travels of the children of Israel are faithfully described; the deliverance which the Lord wrought for them, their perfect organization and special order, their sin in murmuring against Moses and thus against God, their transgressions, their rebellions, their punishments, their carcasses strewn in the wilderness because of their unwillingness to submit to God's wise arrangements--this faithful picture is hung up before us as a warning lest we follow their example of disobedience and fall like them. {1T 652.2}          "But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." Has God changed from a God of order? No; He is the same in the present dispensation as in the former. Paul says: "God is not the author of confusion, but of peace." He is as particular now as then. And He designs that we should learn lessons of order and organization from the perfect order instituted in the days of Moses for the benefit of the children of Israel. {1T 652.3} Many today do not truly believe that God is the same today as in Moses' day with regard to these things. They feel that as culture has changed, so has God's order. But Mrs. White sets the record straight. Are we listening? Who reads the Testimonies these days?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

[ClubV12]

Johann, I appreciate your comment and observation. It speaks to the point of this thread. Which is about honoring, respecting leadership, not running ahead of the process, whatever the outcome may be, accepting it with grace.

And accepting it, whatever it is, doesn't mean you have to agree. You have to work within the system in an honorable way to continue the good fight if you are compelled to do so.

I personally am opposed to women being in a position of authority over men based on my convictions. As Green points out, Israel wanted a King, they were sorry for asking that.

If the Church insists, even demands, W.O., God may well give it to you even though it may NOT be His will, but yours. IF that is the case, woe unto to all of us. We, the Church, will suffer. Joshua and Caleb suffered right along with those who were turned back.

[Kevin H]

Except that to many of us we do not see this as a NEW thing in Israel, but a return to an Old thing in Israel, and that we are going back to the Bible and people wanting us to remain in tradition rather than returning to the Bible. Whether we are going to return to the Bible or stand on the councils of the Rabbinic tradition, the Sanhedrin, the church fathers even if they go against the Bible.

[ClubV12]

Kevin, your opinion seems to indicate women were ordained and held ecclesiastical authority as a routine matter in biblical times. This is simply not the case. There is no record or indication that such authority or position was EVER given to women under everyday circumstances.

We are not operating based on tradition, but from a sound "thus saith the Lord". The fact the G.C. has commissioned a world wide study and careful review of the bible principles confirms this.

[Kevin H]

Are you trying to say that the evidence indicates only unusual occurrences rather than every day? Ok, then what is your reasoning for it to be only for occasional and what is the conditions for it to be ok and Biblical? I'm sorry but from the history and linguistic structures I understand that it was an everyday event.

[ClubV12]

Actually I'm saying more than that Kevin. I'm saying there are NO examples of a woman being ordained to carry out ecclesiastical duties in the bible, period!

Nor was Ellen White ever given this authority. Nor was Ellen White ever ordained, in spite of the many rumors and myths posted here to the contrary. My words echo the words of the General Conference and the White Estate on this issue. They conclude she was never ordained, period. She never started a Church, performed a baptism, married anyone nor claimed any office in the organization. She was a prophet, she just happened to be a woman.

But lets do be careful getting to far off track with the subject of this thread. A new thread on ordination would be advisable, THIS thread is about honoring and respecting the leadership of the Church. And the specific statement from the G.C. noting certain Conferences who have directly opposed that authority. And of course, NADS support of this challenge to authority.

The question then is: Do YOU oppose the authority of the G.C.? Will YOU have your way, regardless of what they rule on this subject? IS the coming vote "moot" in that regard?

[Tom Wetmore]

Kevin, do tell us more about this historical and linguistic evidence.

[Tom Wetmore]

It seems obvious that a number of delegates to the GC Autumn Council who have voted for their Divisional recommendation to ordain women in the future have voted for this statement by the Autumn Council. These seem to be the people who find a solid support for the ordination of women in Scripture, but who agree with the leadership of the church that this ordination should not take place until it has been accepted by the GC, either that it can take place anywhere in the world, or within the divisions where it is found acceptable.

This is the recommendation of the TED, where a number of women and men are now waiting for their ordination to take place in the future. Here are also men who have accepted the temporal assignment confident that the ordination regardless of gender will be approved in the near future.

It is interesting that when several conferences in NAD took this approach that the male pastors voluntarily did not accept ordination until women also would be ordained and some instead accepted commissioned minister status to be on equal status with their female colleagues they were much criticized and labeled as being rebellious, doing an end-run or using a loophole or whatever. Just as so many of our anti-WO friends seem happy to proclaim that women do not need to be ordained to function in ministry, these male pastors simply recognized that they didn't need to be ordained either. And the truth is that there is no policy that says that a male pastor must be ordained.

[ClubV12]

The topic is support for the ecclesiastical authority of the General Conference concerning womens ordination.

I take your post, Tom, to mean you do not support the General Conference statement on those Conferences issuing a direct challenge to their authority. That you stand with those making this challenge.

It should be noted that ONLY ordained Ministers are allowed to marry people. In the case of licensed, commissioned or even ordained local Elders, special permission from the Division is required. Therefore, a commissioned male, or female, does not carry the same authority as an ordained Minister.

Kevin, if you would like to discuss the biblical issues of ordination itself and the biblical examples of such, please start a new thread on that topic.

[Tom Wetmore]

Actually, it is not true that only ordained ministers may perform marriages. (Not sure where you got that from.) From a Church policy (ecclesiastical authority of the GC) standpoint the there is not much difference in what a commissioned minister can do and what an ordained minister can do. The only difference under policy is being a conference president and organizing a new church. (Even though during EGW's lifetime, ordained and licensed minsters were starting new churches, and that including women doing it. Why have we gotten more restrictive in modern time?)

So yes, commissioned ministers, be they men or women, can perform marriages. And yes, there are men who hold the commissioned minister credential.

[ClubV12]

From the Church Manual, concerning the authority of an ordained Minister of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, they can marry people. That authority is inherent with the ordination.

Licensed or commissioned Ministers carry no more authority than a locally ordained Elder as it concerns marrying people. A committee at the Division level must specifically grant this authority on an individual basis.

As the Church Manual is updated, as policies change, this Church law MAY (or may not) be current. It's not something I take issue with either way, I support the rules, laws governing and guiding our Church, whatever they may be.

I have yet to find a rule or law that specifically requires that I violate my conscience to the point where I must obey God rather than man.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

It should be noted that ONLY ordained Ministers are allowed to marry people. In the case of licensed, commissioned or even ordained local Elders, special permission from the Division is required. Therefore, a commissioned male, or female, does not carry the same authority as an ordained Minister.

The above is false.

First, marriage is a civil function that is governed by the laws of the government. In the State where I live, licensed and Commissioned people, as well as some others, if citizens of this State can all perform recognized marriages.

In a country in which I once lived, no SDA pastor could perform a marriage, that was the sole function of the government of that country and all marriages had to be performed in another manner.

Note the following from page 167, of the 2010 CHRUCH MANUAL:

Quote:

1. Marriage Ceremony (see p. 74)—In some countries or states a pastor must be legally appointed and registered in order to conduct the marriage

service. In many lands the pastor may perform the ceremony in the church, but the marriage contract is legally signed by the district registrar, who usually sits in the vestry and listens to the approved form of marriage declaration. In still other lands the pastor cannot perform the ceremony at all because it

is recognized as a state responsibility and is looked upon as a civil contract. In such cases members usually retire to the home or place of worship, where a pastor conducts a special service to seek the blessing of the Lord upon the

couple. (See pp. 146-154.)

Here is a clear statement as to the civil function of marriage and the adherence of the Church to such law.

Here is a statement from the 2008-2009 NAD Working Policy:

Quote:

2. A commissioned minister may perform wedding or baptismal ceremonies outside of his/her pastoral district if authorized to do so by the conference president.

First there is not requirement to be authorized by the Division. It is the Conference that authorizes.

The above references outside of his/her district. It does not mention within the district as that person already has such permission.

The statement I have quoted at the beginning was made by a person who clearly does not understand the policy of the NAD.

[Johann]

Quote:

It should be noted that ONLY ordained Ministers are allowed to marry people. In the case of licensed, commissioned or even ordained local Elders, special permission from the Division is required. Therefore, a commissioned male, or female, does not carry the same authority as an ordained Minister.

The above is false.

First, marriage is a civil function that is governed by the laws of the government. In the State where I live, licensed and Commissioned people, as well as some others, if citizens of this State can all perform recognized marriages.

In a country in which I once lived, no SDA pastor could perform a marriage, that was the sole function of the government of that country and all marriages had to be performed in another manner.

My personal experience having worked in three different hemispheres verifies Gregory's statement.

[ClubV12]

It's from the Church Manual, 2005, Revised edition (leather bound). I'm sure it takes into account applicable laws where ever and what ever they may in the world. The same would apply to an ordained Minister as well, marriage authority only when and where allowed by relevant local laws.

Especially as it concerns a local ordained Elder, which I was surprised to see could be granted marriage authority. I would think thats a rare case though. Depends on the country!

False? You might want to consult the Church Manual before making that claim again. I don't just shoot from the hip, I do my homework.

[Tom Wetmore]

The current edition is the 2010 Edition.

I just checked and it does not restrict performing marriages to only ordained ministers. It allows for licensed or commissioned ministers who have been ordained as a local elder (standard practice in NAD) where the division approves. Clearly that is the case in NAD.

This is a recognition that there are differences among the divisions as it relates to ministry.

[ClubV12]

...."where the Division approves", sounds very similiar to the 2005. Wording, policies change as needed with time. It's a good thing. What works in America won't necessarily work in Saudi Arabia. Contingency plans, like allowing for a local ordained elder when no licensed, commissioned or ordained Minister is available to perform a marriage may be needful. Depending on local law of course.

Eh,,, it's a minor, but interesting point of law.

[Jeannieb43]

The above is false.

First, marriage is a civil function that is governed by the laws of the government. In the State where I live, licensed and Commissioned people, as well as some others, if citizens of this State can all perform recognized marriages.

In a country in which I once lived, no SDA pastor could perform a marriage, that was the sole function of the government of that country and all marriages had to be performed in another manner.

It just so happens that I have performed a marriage in California, under a commission by the State of California as a Wedding Commissioner. This was a one-time-only commission, done in writing and under seal of the local county clerk. This was arranged by the parties because they, as lawyers, knew how to request such a commission.

This doesn't prove anything about the Adventist church's policies... it just shows that the ability to perform weddings does indeed come from civil authority, not ecclesiastical.

[ClubV12]

Interesting point Jeannie. As the church is concerned I think ecclesiastical authority would also be required for an Adventist marriage (in the Church, approved by the Church, that sort of thing).

This commission, of which you speak, I guess even a plumber could get one, from a local law stand point?

My local Church is having some issues with "security" gaurd we would like to have live on the property. County law stipulates he has to be the Pastor OR an ordained Elder. No one else.