is the model of the home the same as the model of the church : God-man-woman

[rev184]

For if the model is correct ordaining woman would essentially be bringing her to the front of the house hold. And as we know that the marriage sanction and sabbath sanction or like conjoined twins where as hurt one and the other will suffer. Attack one and the other will be attacked. So the question for the topic is, is the two models house hold and church the same?

[Johann]

What is the instructions given us by inspiration?

What is a model?

What is reality?

Is the heavenly sanctuary a model? Where are the similarities? Daily sin offerings? How often is Jesus Christ being offered?

Is there a tent in heaven? What are the walls made of?

Is the patriarchal home in the wilderness with maids, servants, slaves, two or more wives, making a female slave a substitute mother, a true model?

Many Christian people would never be in the church if their mother had not been the true spiritual leader in their childhood home.

[rev184]

Model/Pattern-Could you make a dress without a pattern? Could Moses of built the tabernacle without I pattern. What happens if we rearrange a pattern or just try to wing it our own way, would the final result be the same? How did that turn out for Cain?

[Johann]

Would you walk down Times Square just wearing your pattern?

Don´t you need some material too?

[rev184]

Well that allegory went over my head- maybe the Word can help:

1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. What is the context here?

It is ordination.

2:7 Whereunto I am ***ordained*** a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, [and] lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. 

2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 

2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 

2:12 ***But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man,*** but to be in silence. 

2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 

2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. 

What did God say?

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. But what do we do?

Isaiah 3:12 [As for] my people, children [are] their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause [thee] to err, and destroy the way of thy paths. 

[ClubV12]

People have wrestled with Pauls comments for centuries. The idea that it was culture based and doesn't apply to us today is one current trend. Like much of Pauls counsel it is not easy to untangle. I do appreciate his warning: Be careful you don't wrest the scriptures to your own destruction.

To arrive at the proper context, and to consider culture to a reasonable degree, will require the counsel of the brethren. As no scripture is of private interpretation.

This job has been given to a committee under the direction of the G.C. I await their report. Meanwhile, Pauls counsel seems clear enough to me. I see it as women should not be given ecclesiastical authority. Which is a different issue than ordination, depending on how one even defines ordination! Ecclesiastical authority is a little clearer, but still complex enough to stir up confusion. For me, it means women cannot be an ordained Minister of a Church directly over a congregation. Let them preach, be evangelists, even plant Churches under the direction of, counseling with and submissive to a board. There are many other duties which women can perform, in some cases, superior to men.

To often we see many reports of the good works women have done in the bible and through history with the Church. These good works and valuable contributions should not be confused with the suggestion they are qualified to carry ecclesiastical authority. I have yet to see a single case of that in the biblical record and I don't believe it has anything to do with culture. It's Gods design, always has been.

[rev184]

Yes I agree. And may it also not cause division in the church!

[M. T. Cross]

Like much of Pauls counsel it is not easy to untangle. I do appreciate his warning: Be careful you don't wrest the scriptures to your own destruction.

Maybe Paul didn't expect to have his writings be taken as scriptures? So maybe he infused them with a lot of his own personal bias and opinions?

I don't want to be a jerk here, and I hope this is not taken as a personal attack as it is not meant that way

But......

Rev, you have posted in another part of the board the rocky relationship you have with your wife

Club you have mentioned that your marriage was also rocky and did not end well, I believe once you alluded to feeling your good nature was taken advantage of by your wife (a lot of moving to further her career)

Is it possible that you guys are letting your personal bias, based on your life experiences, cloud your judgement?

[ClubV12]

Not possible in my case M.T. That former life is long gone.

As it concerns scripture and how it is written, many people struggle as you seem to, with understanding how inspiration works. Paul was inspired to write what he wrote, it is indeed verily the word of God. Why? Because like Ellen White and the prophets before them they never dared write out their own opinions. They kept silent on those subjects where they had no specific, divine light or revelation. When truth WAS revealed to them, they HAD to write, it was their calling. They wrote, in their own words, what they had seen in vision or dream or divine revelation. In the same way you would report on a dream you had, in your own words. In the case of a prophet, those words are very carefully chosen, at times, even directly inspired as the writing is taking place. Specific phrases or structure may be inspired directly as the pen meets paper. I believe, for the most part, prophets are not directly inspired for the selection of most of their words. They use their experience in life, even the suggestions of others as to how to phrase something to get the reader the best understanding. Luke wrote FOR Paul much of his letters, Paul was dictating, Luke writing. No doubt Luke would make a suggestion for the wording from time to time. IF that met with Pauls approval, thats how it would be written. It's very human process, and yet, it's a very divine process. What it is NOT, is personal opinion!

[phkrause]

I'm in 100% agreement Club

[rev184]

Rocky no, none actually. Bias no I actually like the idea of women being ordained if we are short men to step to the plate. so be it. Except for biblical standing. But the topic is the pattern of the house hold and the question is, is it the same as the pattern or model of the body of Christ the church. if so then it seems the marriage institution the pattern of the house hold is under attack in a clever way and if that be, the conjoined twin institution is the sabbath. Where one is effected the other will also. As in gay marriage is not a direct attack on the sabbath but is subversively. Attacking the marriage institution will effect the sabbath. The pendulum swayed the people wanted gay marriage the government is giving in. the people will want Sunday law and the government will give in. and yes scripture is the Word and the Word is Christ, I wonder why the head covering thing oh never mind.

[rev184]

Adventist home chapter 56: He referred them to the blessed days of Eden when God pronounced all things “very good.” Then marriage and the Sabbath had their origin, twin institutions for the glory of God in the benefit of humanity.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

And as we know that the marriage sanction and sabbath sanction or like conjoined twins where as hurt one and the other will suffer. Attack one and the other will be attacked. So the question for the topic is, is the two models house hold and church the same?

O.K.

In the beginning, before the entry of sin, Adam and Eve were created in equality--she from his rib, neither from his head or his foot. They had equal standing.

[Tom Wetmore]

And that fundamental principle of equality is a core principle of the Sabbath. All God's people to stop, take a break from doing for themselves, serving their own purposes (six days for you own work, one day for The Lord). As Jesus demonstrated by his own example on the Sabbath, it is a time for focusing on the needs of others. He did seven Sabbath miracles of healing show that to do good deeds of compassion was the righteous Thing to do on the Sabbath. That outward focus on others is a true sense of equality since at its heart inequality is self-centered. When we see others as of equal worth and value, without disntinctiions, we stop focusing on ourselves and instead focus on them.

[Johann]

Have you ever seen your Sabbath celebration in this light?

Quote:

Listen now to what Genesis says about day seven:

On the seventh day, God finished all the work of creation and God rested. God blessed the seventh day and called it sacred, because on it God rested from all the work of creation. (Gen.2:2-3)

So the Hebrew story-teller saw the Sabbath Day, that sacred time, as the culmination of creation; the final all-important act of God. God crowned creation with the Sabbath.

So who must rest on the Sabbath? Listen to the Torah’s Book of Deuteronomy:

Honor the Sabbath day and keep it holy, as Adonai, your God, commanded. For six days you will labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to Adonai, your God. You will do no work that day, neither you nor your daughter nor your son nor your workers (or slaves) – women or men – nor your ox nor your donkey, not any of your animals; not even foreigners among you so that your workers – both women and men – will rest as you do.” (Deut. 5:12-14)

And just to make sure that is clear, it is repeated in briefer form in Exodus:

For six days you are to do your work, but on the seventh day you must not work. On that day the donkey and the ox are to rest as well, and so are your indentured workers and the foreigners who do your work.” (Ex. 23:12)

The Sabbath Day was a time of rest and regeneration for all of God’s living creatures. It was therefore a day of profound equality. Affluent landowners had to let their workers rest on the Sabbath; husbands couldn’t require their wives to cook on the Sabbath; foreigners, slaves, servants and even beasts of burden were to be given time for themselves on that sacred day - that’s a radical concept – everyone, equally, was to have one sacred day of rest each week.

Jerald M. Stinson

[CoAspen]

Quote:

.....was to have one sacred day of rest each week.

Rest! Not a day of do's and don'ts!! How did humans ever get around to perferting it? Everyone need some rest! Even God!

[phkrause]

What Bible version is that from?

[rev184]

As the husband is the head of the home, so he is the natural leader of a group of homes in a church congregation. Sda commentary p296 /13

The apostles second argument for the submissiveness of women is that when eve tried to assert leadership she was beguiled.there is no explanation for sin.why eve could be deceived by satan in the full light of God s explicit command, its beyond rational explanation.because of this tragic event Paul sees added reason for counseling converted women not to attempt to usurp authority over man. /14

Adam was not deceived.it was eve who was beguiled by the evil one. Adam sinned with the full knowledge of the step he was taking. Because of his love for eve he voluntarily chose to share the results of the transgression with her./14 pg. 296 vol 7 sda commentary.

11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Love does not seek to usurp authority /15 pg.296 sda comm.

[olger]

Good posts.