Five Uncomfortable Issues For The Church

[M. T. Cross]

Like I said, there are real problems, with real causes, and real effects, they are just not 'illnesses' that need drug treatment. As for Autism, there is sufficient evidence to indicate that it is a result of something in the shots that they give to newborns. Probably the mercury. Their brains are literally damaged.

I have 3 autistic kids. Only one got that shot.

There is also massive evidence to show that the shot has nothing to do with it.

[Gregory Matthews]

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There is also massive evidence to show that the shot has nothing to do with it.

Yes

[Gregory Matthews]

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Many of the "illnesses" listed in the DSM, let us ask some questions about them. How do they test you for split personality disorder for instance? Do they do a blood test, X-ray your head, take your temperature? Nope, all they do is ask you questions. How does this confirm a you have a "disease" of the brain? What does the germ/bacteria/virus for split personality disorder look like? Well... it doesn't look like anything, because their is none, and they know that, so instead they call it a "chemical imbalance" in the brain. And how do they verify this "chemical imbalance" in your brain before offering you drugs to "help" you? Do they do a surgery, take a sample of brain fluid? What do they do? Well, they don't. Everything is based off of how you answer questions. You can go online yourself and do self tests to see if you need psychotropic drug treatment. But you'll quickly notice that it is based on how you answer questions, not off of science (something that is studied, observed, and tested).

O.K. Let us examine the above to demonstrate your level of knowledge.

As I have not yet purchased the DSM-5, and I suspect that most people reading here have not done so. My comments will be based upon and older DSM-IV.

What do you mean by "Split Personality Disorder." There is not now and never has been such in the DSM. So, right off the bat, I am perplexed as to how to respond to you due to your inability of identify a valid DSM illness.

I suspect that you may have had in mind Multiple Personality Disorder )DSM). That is a old DSM name for a DSM illness. For almost 20 years MPD in the DMS has been called Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID). I am guessing that DID is what you are talking about.

NOTE: The actual DSM listing is: 300.14 Dissociative Identity disorder.

The DSM-IV devotes 3.5 pages to DID. The diagnostic criteria for DID is listed on page 487. The diagnostic criteria contains four (4) separate criteria. In none of these criteria are questions asked of the patient part of the criteria.

Certainly to do a full psychological evaluation, which I have done, the patient is asked many questions. But, those questions, while part of the psychological workup are not part of the diagnostic criteria.

As is common, but not total in psychological diagnosis, the four criteria are best described as observational.

You have previously mentioned Bipolar Disorder. Well, I do not know what illness you are talking about. The DSM-IV lists six (6) different general types of Bipolar disorders Page 350. It then expands those into eleven (11) specific identifiable Bipolar disorders. In truth, those eleven are further broken down into more than 30 types.

In any case, in my opinion, your comments on the DSM indicate to me that you do not understand your subject matter.

By the way to go online and answer a few questions if fun stuff good at a cocktail party. But, it is not the way to do a proper psychological evaluation.

[M. T. Cross]

Ya know, I had a very dear friend that suffered from a mental illness. A therapist told this person to try and focus on positive things, to see the good in life, to think happy thoughts. A week later my friend swallowed a whole bottle of prescription sleeping pills. Thankfully someone got them to the hospital on time, and a psychiatrist prescribed some appropriate medication. Within 2 months it was like talking to a new person.

So really what it boils down to is this. If the medication helps, be it a placebo effect or if these medications are actually helping level out a hormonal or chemical imbalance in the brain, if they save lives, improve lives, and help make some positive changes then why get all worked up about it.

On the flip side my mother refused to take medication for her problems and ended up being one of the most psychotic nut jobs I have had the displeasure of encountering.

[Naomi]

So really what it boils down to is this. If the medication helps, be it a placebo effect or if these medications are actually helping level out a hormonal or chemical imbalance in the brain, if they save lives, improve lives, and help make some positive changes then why get all worked up about it.

AMEN & AMEN

[debbym]

in my experience in conversations with others, the point of view of battle axe is representative of a large population group.

i met a woman who was a guest speaker at the Oregon Life Sciences University series of lectures, speaking from her experiences addressing mental health treatment for trauma survivors.

a doctor there was presenting the position that any symptoms of all mental illness,schizoaffective, schizophrenia. bi-polar, major depression, and seemed most any dsm dx could be generated by unresolved carried emotional pain.

and that medication cannot correct emotional pain.

this contributed to the conversation of medication vs talk therapy.

my suspicion is that the healing of the injury of emotional pain occurs through healing the relationship with oneself. within oneself we can heal whether our relationships with others are restored or not.

so i am no doctor, and this was a window in on viewpoints shared within the psychiatric, psychological educational community. some years ago of course. i believe in medication for mental illness, but i also believe some people are over medicated, and treated with medication to the exclusion of other healing methods, much like occurs in traditional physical medicine.

two groups of mental patients who needed hospitalization were treated differently. one groupo was sent in patient for traditional care, the other sent to a resort.

the group sent to the restor had much better results in the mental recovery of the patients.

now this is just a story, i do not know if it was true.

but i can imagine it being true.

it is about a stressed based model of mental illness rather then a medical model of mental illness. in the medical model we treat symptoms with pills, in the stress model we manage the distress and reduce the symptoms.

kind of like changing diet for diabetes and heart problems... and getting good results.

i rather think it should and can be a combination of both.... but some doc's it is just pills, for some it is just natural remedy. so we have a continuum of treatment response.

there are so many factors to evaluation of stress and distress.... each case is highly individual as to what resources they have to bring from within themselves to life distress, genetics included.

[onebeecee]

I read a link by this title on a friend's Facebook page.

• Addiction
• Sexuality
• Sincere doubt
• Mental illness
• Loneliness

Over the years I have seen most of those discussed here on this forum. I am not sure how many are being discussed on the local church level.

First of all thank you Shane for bringing this up. They are very touchy subjects!

I'd like to ask a couple of questions to the group, as they have bothered me for sometime.

As a person who identifies with four of the five on your list, I was wondering how this is dealt with, within the church.

1. Addiction, have had one, but during the time, I could not see myself surrendering to a higher power, as I had already surrendered to a drug, and as being brought up in the church I was well aware my breaking a commandment, Deuteronomy 5:7

"You shall have no other gods before me.

So I found a Buddhist based secular group online, that helped me kick it.

Is there help within the Adventist Church for addiction, using God and scientific proven ways? If so, is it self helped based? Is counselling provided? If so by whom? I still have "friends" that I don't associate with, but have called me for help. And I've taken them to the hospital. I was hoping that the church has an alternative plan.

Sincere Doubt: But that I think I am correcting. I've lost the bible I loved, and before opening it, I use to always pray that I be directed to a verse - chapter that would help me with the troubles I am/was having. But found a quote generator online, and do the same thing, sometimes it works, other times I have to use the quote and dig a bit. I've also been given a task to question my beliefs. Before that task was given to me, I finally surrendered to God, and the demands I was making of him. For example: I must go here, I must have this answer, etc. And just said, show me my path, I'll wait as patiently as I can, but remember I'm not a patient person. I like to treat God as if he was right beside me. My next request he send people with the answers to me. The task given me, has opened many doors in a way that only God would know, could answer them. The reason for that will become evident in the next question.

Mental Illness: I have been tested a few times, and as Gregory Matthews (I believe) has stated with the correct tests, it is a true medical problem. Does anyone know what the churches position is on this? I have several,all verified with testing. One of them is anti social, that is where God came in. I couldn't go out to a church and ask I need help, I have problems leaving my home, even my bedroom at times. Is there counselling available in the Adventist church? Is there a clear directive on mental illness within the church? And from what I've read on this thread, this is a touchy subject, so I do ask it in sincere honesty. Some of the drugs prescribed me, I do know to be addictive. Is this between me and God? And since I'm very aware of addictive patterns, do I use my own judgment, along with my understanding of God?

Loniliness: I identify with it, lucky I have a therapist who is very spiritually minded, and is helping me with this. And has encouraged me to get in touch with that first, I was pretty resistant at first, but like I said, I believe God has answered some of those prayers. But is there an outreach program within the church, to help people like myself?

Thank you very much for your time, - all of you. LOL treat me gently, and believe me I've done enough judging of myself, I would like to think this is a safe place to ask these types of questions?

[debbym]

my SDA church specializes in such kinds of needs. we are a group that upholds radical acceptance as an expression of the gospel, including anyone who may experience life through a neurologically atypical process.

Jesus did not sort people out by how mentally or socially successful they were, and He does not do this today. but people may and often do.

[Gregory Matthews]

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Is there help within the Adventist Church for addiction, using God and scientific proven ways? If so, is it self helped based? Is counselling provided? If so by whom? I still have "friends" that I don't associate with, but have called me for help. And I've taken them to the hospital. I was hoping that the church has an alternative plan.

There are people within the SDA Church who have established their own treatment programs.

Some are more respectable than others. Some are more scientific than others.

A person with an addiction will likely need some medical help. IOW, there are several aspects of addictions--medical, spiritual, psychological. A treatment program should probably include all of the above.

In the area of alcohol, AA has a good, effect on some people, but, in my opinion, not all. IOW, AA should be attempted providing that one gets into an appropriate group.

I will ask you: Why are you looking for an alternative program? If you were in kidney failure, would you ask if the SDA Church had an alternative program?

The literature is clear that religion and spirituality should be an aspect of treatment for many illnesses. But, to ask for scientifically proven methods that consist of an alternative program seems to contradict.

[Gregory Matthews]

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I couldn't go out to a church and ask I need help, I have problems leaving my home, even my bedroom at times. Is there counselling available in the Adventist church? Is there a clear directive on mental illness within the church? And from what I've read on this thread, this is a touchy subject, so I do ask it in sincere honesty. Some of the drugs prescribed me, I do know to be addictive. Is this between me and God? And since I'm very aware of addictive patterns, do I use my own judgment, along with my understanding of God?

In one sense the church is simply people. Some congregations may have a good understanding of mental illness while others will not. People differ. One cannot expect everyone to have a good understanding.

The SDA Church does not have a clear directive on mental illness in the sense that you may be asking for one.

For some mental illnesses, medications may be required for proper medical management. For other illnesses, that is not true and other methods of treatment are the gold standard. For some, both should be combined and for others either may be effective. There is no one box that fits all.

A drug may be addictive. However, when properly prescribed, in the clinical management of an illness, there is little likely hood of addiction. Further the SDA, and I will suggest the Biblical, position is that there is a difference between taking something for a recreational purpose and for taking the same thing as part of the clinical management of an illness.

I had surgery twice in 2012. In both cases I came home immediately after the surgery. Speaking of one of them, my wife has clearly informed me that I was high for several hours after the surgery. NOTE: I did not receive that drug for recreational purposes, but as part of the medical management of a clinical condition. I did not become addicted to it. No one will criticize me for that.

[Gregory Matthews]

LRSC, there is a fundamental issue connected to your valid questions.

First: God is with us in all of our issues of life. God does not forsake us.

The SDA Church in not the ultimate answer to every issue. The Bible is clear that God has established civil government, imperfect as it may be. There are boundaries in that God has not given the Church the power to resolve every issue. Civil government does had a valid role to play in some issues of life.

In the same sense, there are issues of mental and medical health that lie beyond the ability and role of a congregation to resolve. In those cased it is expected that the individual will make use of the help that can be provided by civil society. Yes, the congregation hopefully can be supportive of the individual, but probably not be able to heal.

[Gregory Matthews]

LRSC, some may tell you that modern mental health is against spirituality and religion. This may be true on an individual basis. But, as a generalization it is false.

Modern mental health treatment is more and more coming to recognize the importance of religion and spirituality in mental health.

The book by Dr. Matthews, not me, entitled THE FAITH FACTOR, while dated a bit, is an excellent example.

A more modern example is one published in 2011, by the American Psychiatric Association and entitled: RELIGIOUS AND SPIRITUAL ISSUES IN PSYCHIATRIC DIAGNOSIS: A RESEARCH AGENDA FOR DSM-V. is an excellent book.

I have both of these in my library.

[onebeecee]

I personally am not, I have been clean now for I like to say almost 5 years, In truth 4yrs 2mon. So looking forward to that 5 years though, I was asking for a friend, who has tried both the 12 steps and what I did. I liked what I did, it was practical and (should I mention it here?) like some of the Buddhist teaching simple. You retrained your thought patterns. I carried a piece of paper with what it would cost me if I chose to do it again. But this particular woman, nothing seems to work. Just inquiring if this was available, and where.