SO WHAT?

[Stan]

So what if women are ordained.

So what if women are not ordained.

How does either way make difference in how you lived our your Christianity yesterday or today..

What about tomorrow?

[cricket]

That depends on what a person believes the Holy Spirit is convicting them to do.

[CoAspen]

Good question!

[Neil D]

Is there a difference in pay for an ordained female minister and a male minister who is also ordained?

[lazarus]

Is there a difference in pay for an ordained female minister and a male minister who is also ordained?

No.

There also is no difference in pay or duties in the local church between a commissioned female and an ordained male.

[Tom Wetmore]

I suppose those questions could also be posed for males and ordination.

But in any event it seems to me to be a rhetorical tautology (not to be confuse with a logical tautology).

Framing it as question of whether ordination matters at all simply avoids the fundamental issue.

Why define or organize or structure or designate anything about church. "So what?" Does any of it really matter in how anyone lives out their Christianity?

But then, ordination isn't really the question anyway. If we did not ordain anyone to any role or function in the church, the real question would remain the same. Can women and men both do it? What is "it"? And that seems to be where agreement seems impossible. Why? Or, why not?

What does it all matter...

[ClubV12]

It appears the crux of the problem is that some folks have raised the issue to one that is essentially a "test of faith". The most powerful motivator on the planet. Stand your ground at the risk of eternal death if you don't. The Crusades were like that. Islam is like that. There is a place for that with Christians as well. Time, place, issue all need to be carefully considered.

I am reminded of what James White said of those who swore they would refuse to fight in the Civil War, at risk of being handed a death sentence for treason. He said to resist, "...is madness". Ellen White called it suicide, those who were thinking they would be martyrs, sincerely mistaken they were. Daniel likewise told his people not to resist the Babylonians taking them into captivity. He knew they would be killed if they did, it would "madness" to resist.

Is this issue that significant? Well, some have said, one being an SDA Minister, they are willing to die for this cause. They will support W.O. no matter what the cost.

Sure looks like war, but I could be wrong...

[LifeHiscost]

So what if women are ordained.

So what if women are not ordained.

How does either way make difference in how you lived our your Christianity yesterday or today..

What about tomorrow?

This, I believe, answers those questions.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."Galatians 3:28 NASB

However, most men/women pretty much have problems when it comes to their counterpart. Thank God for the exceptions.

God cares! Jesus saves!

[rev184]

Sister White got thru allot by Gods grace even laying aside some rearing of her newborn. But out of curiosity and not vulgarity will they get a week off once a month?

Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelled in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a (removed -niddah : menstruous) woman. Ezekiel

And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be (put apart-niddah : menstruous unclean) seven days: Leviticus

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

. . .will they get a week off once a month?

You have got to be kidding.

I work in a hospital. Probably the majority of employees are female. None need to take a week off each month!

Tell me are you some visitor from some other planet who is visiting Earth and knows little about our life forms?

Quote:

And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be (put apart-niddah : menstruous unclean) seven days: Leviticus

Most of us here would probably believe that the ancient O.T. sanctuary system has been done away with.

I will remind you that as the children of Israel traveled to Palestine they were required to carry a shovel with them so that they could dig a hole when they needed to relieve themselves and cover it up. Do you carry such as you travel to work each day?

_________________________

[Johann]

Quote:

. . .will they get a week off once a month?

I will remind you that as the children of Israel traveled to Palestine they were required to carry a shovel with them so that they could dig a hole when they needed to relieve themselves and cover it up. Do you carry such as you travel to work each day?

_________________________

A good question

[rev184]

I wasn't meaning general work but ordained pastoral sermon giving work, small little difference maybe. And the other odd similitude i'm sure most of us do bury our waste if we have to use the water closet by means of a flush.

Maybe a better similitude might be a pastor who just had a ham sandwich and a smoke and we know he does? Wonder what the anti type and type was for that anyway?

[CoAspen]

Say what? Am rather confused with our post.

[rev184]

As the husband is the head of the home, so he is the natural leader of a group of homes in a church congregation. Sda commentary p296 /13

The apostles second argument for the submissiveness of women is that when eve tried to assert leadership she was beguiled.there is no explanation for sin.why eve could be deceived by satan in the full light of God s explicit command, its beyond rational explanation.because of this tragic event Paul sees added reason for counseling converted women not to attempt to usurp authority over man. /14

Adam was not deceived.it was eve who was beguiled by the evil one. Adam sinned with the full knowledge of the step he was taking. Because of his love for eve he voluntarily chose to share the results of the transgression with her./14 pg. 296 vol 7 sda commentary.

11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in cooperating, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Love does not seek to usurp authority /15 pg.296 sda comm

so what ? The question is to be of one accord, the later rain receiving. Together we stand divided some fall. That's all, truth not error not standing in error but truth. And a dialog a voicing together is essential.

[Gregory Matthews]

Let me see: Adam sinned in full knowledge, because he loved Eve and therefore sinned in rebellion against God.

On the other had, Eve was deceived and therefore he sin was not in rebellion against God.

Therefore, it is claimed that the sin of Eve, was worse than the sin of Adam and women are more evil than men?

Astounding.

Personally, I would think that full rebellion is worse that deception.

[Stan]

So what if women are ordained.

So what if women are not ordained.

How does either way make difference in how you lived our your Christianity yesterday or today..

What about tomorrow?

Perhaps some missed the question.

How does either way make difference in how you lived our your Christianity yesterday or today..

[debbym]

when females feel denied privileges because of gender, and are disregarded and not listened to, and subjugated, this generates deep social tension.

when males feel emasculated by females who are standing up and serving in functional ways that males believe are their special privileges this generates deep social tension.

the enemy works to bring about distress and discord in any way he can. These tensions can profoundly impact church family relationships.

when any individual surrenders their flesh to God, and lets all selfish generated tensions subside, and find's their identity in Christ and Christ alone, then there is freedom.

when we surrender all our opinions, and attitudes, and gender and our own will in every area and expression to our creator, he does not return it with bickering built into it. no it is returned filled with attitudes of mercy, kindness, patience, and longsuffering, and forbearance towards all.

by their fruits you shall know them.

so if the ordination of women results in my warfare against others, or the absence of wo results in my warfare against other's i am deeply impacted. and also deeply impacted by those who would go to war over this issue in either direction.

any life even that reveals i am out of tune with my saviour is a providential blessing of God to lead me to a deeper repentance and a closer walk with Christ.

this is why the marriage relationship is called the school of Christ, it is where we become aware of our great need, and when we seek out the Grace and character of God to control our conduct, or not.

all things work together for good for those who love God, and perfect peace have they which love thy Law nothing shall offend them. Perfect peace have they which live out the character of God, in mercy, love and wisdom, patience and self-control, and faith and hope and joy.

God help us all to be dead and Hid in Christ, that His life might appear, and in him was life, and this life was light.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: Stan

So what if women are ordained.

So what if women are not ordained.

How does either way make difference in how you lived our your Christianity yesterday or today..

What about tomorrow?

Perhaps some missed the question.

How does either way make difference in how you lived our your Christianity yesterday or today..

I won't make a bit of difference to me. I have female friends who are ordained. My life didn't cave in because of it. I have friends who are opposed to women being ordained, and as well as friends who are *for* women's ordination. It didn't affect my friendship with either side.

I don't think it's an important enough issue to fight about. It obviously was not important enough to God to address as a commandment in scripture.

[olger]

So what if women are ordained.

So what if women are not ordained.

How does either way make difference in how you lived our your Christianity yesterday or today..

What about tomorrow?

It allows us as Adventists to become editors of the Bible, thus permitting the surgical removal of Scriptural passages & principles that we don't like anymore.

`G

[rev184]

Gregory: Let me see: Adam sinned in full knowledge, because he loved Eve and therefore sinned in rebellion against God.

On the other had, Eve was deceived and therefore he sin was not in rebellion against God.

Therefore, it is claimed that the sin of Eve, was worse than the sin of Adam and women are more evil than men?

Astounding.

Personally, I would think that full rebellion is worse that deception.

The post your retorting after is complete sda and scriptural writings but seems to be the sight.

" sounds like a good point"mind you deception in the church is not good .

1.) Eve had been perfectly happy by her husband’s side in her Eden home; but, like restless modern Eves, she was flattered with the hope of entering a higher sphere than that which God had assigned her. In attempting to rise above her original position, she fell far below it. A similar result will be reached by all who are unwilling to take up cheerfully their life duties in accordance with God’s plan. ah chapter 17 Ellen White

Was at the side of Adam but now ruled over by husband.

2.) Why did Moses sister get struck with leprosy? Smarting under the supposed neglect shown to herself and Aaron, she regarded the wife of Moses as the cause, concluding that her influence had prevented him from taking them into his counsels as formerly. Had Aaron stood up firmly for the right, he might have checked the evil; but instead of showing Miriam the sinfulness of her conduct, he sympathized with her, listened to her words of complaint, and thus came to share her jealousy. Patriarchs and prophets chapter 33

.........but maybe I should throw out my sda, commentary set. And books for it seems the majority think differently than these writings as in my last post,,whose writings are they anyway. I'm surprised of the many views of my library of books of pictures I post on here.

.......

Perhaps some missed the question. How does either way make difference in how you lived out your Christianity yesterday or today..

What about tomorrow ?

And Stan is right. The questions' answers are a little off track1.)

-Yesterday as in the past not actually yesterday.-As a usher I was ushered out of conference for quitely asking if what was going on up on stage was biblical, for I didn't know, I was still trying to get over being served at a eating place by hired waiters and waitresses by the conference on the sabbath.

-Today their are the liberal and the conservative. The ones who go by EGW writings of flesh eating, and consuming very little and plainly on the sabbath unlike pot luck. for their is no need for much food when not working ,and the sda writings and those who don't like them- my last post in point. I've even run into opposition against the three angels message and the sanctuary truths. And not just by the congregation! It seems as the Americans were shouting 4 more years with Obama, we were shouting more liberty and spirituality more Luke warmness!

-And tomorrow metaphorically again, what if the church shakes up and decides against WO. would their not be division? When Isaiah was to see the great sign then he was to know that the destruction of Israel was to come.what was that sign ?

Isaiah3:12 as for My people children are their oppressors and women rule over them(the people): O My people they which lead thee cause thee to erre and destroy the way of thy paths.

Indifference and neutrality in a religious crisis is regarded of God as a grievous crime and equal to the very worst type of hostility against God. Ellen White testimonies vol. 3

For if a man know not how to rule his own house how shall he take care of the church of God. 1 Tim 3

But I must admit in todays day and age the women wears the pants in the home of many for the man know not how! So they my as well want to in the church. But doesn't the very word remnant mean like in the beginning. Yet you won't find this issue there. But you will in the worldly churches the Babylonian churches , interesting conformity.

This isn't at least as embarrassing as sda abortion policy and the lack of outrage of infant murder of a child a woman is with. The sixth commandment. But wait till we start renouncing the seventh day sabbath, turning our faces toward the east. Remnant we should be ashamed, sighing and crying and woh to us that aren't for isn't the ink horn out and about or do you not think that the closing of probation a reality. We are not waiting for the latter rain were missing it. may Christ wash us with His blood, His life, His word, the precious Bible the truth.

Did not even Ted Wilson say it was not biblical during the Californian ordination?

And even in this article says Ted is against.

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCwQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.atoday.org%2Farticle%2F1215%2Fopinion%2Ftaylor-ervin%2F2012%2Fted-wilson-ii-and-joe-benedict-xvi-have-a-common-problem-women-in-ministry-in-their-churches&ei=_KSrUt62Jeqe2gW394DQCQ&usg=AFQjCNGNrUAWlZld__qdGwx3GqmW59pQ8w&sig2=8UhzRmXwgZNYSx5hVEvhug

[Tom Wetmore]

That was rambling randomness...

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

The post your retorting after is complete sda and scriptural writings but seems to be the sight.

" sounds like a good point"mind you deception in the church is not good .

I do not know what you said in the above post. Reminds me of the dictum that when one writes for a public audience they should write in a manner that is both focused and simple.

Overall your post reminds me of a shotgun blast at a group of trees in a distant forest. A large number of trees are hit over a wide area. But, none of them were damaged enough to do any harm.

[Tom Wetmore]

So what if women are ordained.

So what if women are not ordained.

How does either way make difference in how you lived our your Christianity yesterday or today..

What about tomorrow?

Coming back to the topic...

After pondering the question I think it is important and it will make a difference. Not to the past or today so much since today it is at the moment unresolved. Bu the future is pregnant with possibilities.

So, looking at the two alternatives for the future. To not ordain women will just keep the tension of the status quo alive. That is the "decision" to not decide. But for me personally it will not mean being denied being able to attend and be a local church that still sees it differently and affirms women in ministry as much as possible. The blessing remains what it is today and has been for the yesterday's of the past 40 years of experiencing church with women in ministry at my church. The worse concern would be for us to go backwards as the Southern Baptists did and further restrict women from pastoral ministry. That would make an unfortunate difference not for the good.

But to open the door to WO will open the opportunity for more to experience the value and blessing of women in ministry without reservation. And I believe it will encourage more women to enter the ministry. If so, I firmly believe that the difference will be just as EGW said a number of times:

Quote:

It was Mary who first preached a risen Jesus; and the refining, softening influence of Christian women is needed in the great work of preaching the truth now. If there were twenty women where now there is one who would make the saving of souls their cherished work, we should see many more converted to the truth. Zealous and continued diligence in the cause of God would be wholly successful, and would astonish them with its results. – {WM 146.2}

[M. T. Cross]

I think the only thing that would probably change for those that are more concerned with the actual SDA message than the politics of the denomination is that they would have more people to worship with. The people that these women would reach that men may never be able to.

[CoAspen]