Members phkrause Posted January 18, 2014 Members Share Posted January 18, 2014 What we atheists want is for people of faith to say “It’s possible” rather than “It is so.” We want them to say “I believe,” not “I know.” BY: James Metzger http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/What-Ath..._term=yahoo.com Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Haven't read the article...but I agree with the title!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Skimmed the article......basic humility for all, what ever a person believes. Works for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Quote: We are also justified confidently holding certain theories – say, the theory of evolution – for which our perceptual faculties have furnished mounds of very good data. If I believe in atheism, and it proves to be true, I die and return to the dust as with all other human beings. If I am a disciple of the Christ and what He says is true, I not only will never lose my opportunity to live forever but it will be in the atmosphere of a land where there is no more pain nor sorrow, neither will there be death or crying anymore. Atheism holds out certain death. The King of kings holds open before all who live on the world He created, the gift of eternal life without sorrow. Seems like a nobrainer to me. God cares! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Quote: If I believe in atheism, and it proves to be true, I die and return to the dust as with all other human beings. You don't believe in atheism. Atheism is a lack of belief. In real world examples, atheism is like you not playing sports, or not writing books. It's a non-action, it's lack of action. It's not a positive engagement in something. Actually, atheism is a bit mislabeled abstraction, because it describes a negation, or non-entity. You wouldn't label someone as a non-football-player, or a non-writer. Yet, we have atheists as a special and distinct label. Quote: If I am a disciple of the Christ and what He says is true, I not only will never lose my opportunity to live forever but it will be in the atmosphere of a land where there is no more pain nor sorrow, neither will there be death or crying anymore. Claim of a more comfortable and more desirable reward is not exactly the best way of determining veracity of something, especially if you present it as a bet. If you present it as such, then that's not the only bet you are making . By accepting Christianity you are rejecting Islam, for example, and if Islam is true... then your death would be much more horrible than that if you are an atheist. Likewise, Islam promises the same heavenly bliss for believers. Quote: Atheism holds out certain death. The King of kings holds open before all who live on the world He created, the gift of eternal life without sorrow. Seems like a nobrainer to me. Yes, it is a no-brainer... in a literal sense . But, if you actually desire to use your brain, then you will see that believing something based on the rewards promised is a very sleazy idea which historically led to most atrocious periods in our history. I'm not trying to persuade you away from Christianity... all I'm saying that you should in the very least believe for the right reasons, and not merely "If I believe, then I'm except from death and difficult life post-resurrection". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators debbym Posted January 18, 2014 Administrators Share Posted January 18, 2014 Quote: What we atheists want is for people of faith to say “It’s possible” rather than “It is so.” We want them to say “I believe,” not “I know.”BY: James Metzger in response to the statement having not read the content of the link.... i like the statement. if love for God were something that had a purely empirical base, then there would be no freedom to think and to choose. growing in comprehension and in response in a relationship to a higher being is something that gives excitement to a Christian life. But it is not something based on rocket science, that you obtain by higher degrees in math and physics and chemistry. to believe or not to believe remains a choice to be made. For their to be a loving eternal creator is not a conclusion to forced upon anyone. this in itself is contradictory from a believers point of view to a loving all powerful being who respects the freewill of his creation. Quote deb Love awakens love. Let God be true and every man a liar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Naomi Posted January 18, 2014 Administrators Share Posted January 18, 2014 As one staunch, life-long atheist, a PhD and multi-published author, said to me, "When you die, that's all there is, this is all that was: Game Over" I must admit that I opened the article, skimmed a bit and closed it ... therefore I may have missed it's message. Quote If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Igakusei Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 if love for God were something that had a purely empirical base, then there would be no freedom to think and to choose. growing in comprehension and in response in a relationship to a higher being is something that gives excitement to a Christian life. But it is not something based on rocket science, that you obtain by higher degrees in math and physics and chemistry. to believe or not to believe remains a choice to be made. For their to be a loving eternal creator is not a conclusion to forced upon anyone. this in itself is contradictory from a believers point of view to a loving all powerful being who respects the freewill of his creation. I always wonder if people who say things like this have ever actually thought about what they're saying. My relationship with my wife and children has a strong empirical base (I can see them, touch them, talk to them, show up for piano recitals, etc.). But I assume that you wouldn't say that I don't have any freedom to think and choose about how I treat them or my relationship with them? You think that if a powerful creator manifested in a giant volcano and spoke to us visibly and audibly that we would instantly become mind slaves and lose the ability to make decisions concerning how we relate to this new deity? Of course not, because that would be ridiculous, right? And yet here you seem to be making that argument for your God? If the god you believe in came to Earth today and told us all that the Bible was an accurate history of his relationship with us, I would still tell him to get lost because I wouldn't worship a monster that violently drowned almost every man, woman, child, and innocent animal on the planet because he felt like starting over and couldn't think of a more elegant way to do it. All you're doing is making transparent excuses for the fact that your god doesn't do any of the tangible, observable things that you would otherwise expect him to if all of the character attributes you assign to him were actually true. Quote I believe in life before death Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Igakusei Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 As one staunch, life-long atheist, a PhD and multi-published author, said to me, "When you die, that's all there is, this is all that was: Game Over" I'd rather deal with a depressing reality than live in a comforting delusion. Turns out though, that reality really isn't that depressing. If it looks that way from your perspective, it's only because you live in a universe composed primarily of wishful thinking. I could spend all day dreaming about how the technological singularity is almost upon us and I'm going to be able to have my mind uploaded into a computer before I die so that I can still live forever... but that would also be delusional and wishful thinking. I prefer to see the world as it most probably is, and not how I want it to be. Quote I believe in life before death Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Naomi Posted January 18, 2014 Administrators Share Posted January 18, 2014 Igakusei, I have to wonder that if you feel so strongly why do you even spend your precious time on a Christian site? Just askin' Quote If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Igakusei Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Igakusei, I have to wonder that if you feel so strongly why do you even spend your precious time on a Christian site? Just askin' I haven't posted here in weeks, actually. I used to spend more time here than I do now for other reasons, but that's a different topic unrelated to this one. Quote I believe in life before death Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Naomi Posted January 18, 2014 Administrators Share Posted January 18, 2014 Originally Posted By: Naomi As one staunch, life-long atheist, a PhD and multi-published author, said to me, "When you die, that's all there is, this is all that was: Game Over" I'd rather deal with a depressing reality than live in a comforting delusion. Turns out though, that reality really isn't that depressing. If it looks that way from your perspective, it's only because you live in a universe composed primarily of wishful thinking. I could spend all day dreaming about how the technological singularity is almost upon us and I'm going to be able to have my mind uploaded into a computer before I die so that I can still live forever... but that would also be delusional and wishful thinking. I prefer to see the world as it most probably is, and not how I want it to be. The important thing about this issue is that we are all given a choice. If you are right, game over ... not depressing just reality If I am correct and there is a God and eternal life WooHoo ... How Wonderful It Will Be!! If you are right, and I am wrong, I have still had a good life filled with love, peace and hope ... nothing lost!! I will take my chances and wish you all the best with your choice. Quote If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Igakusei Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 The important thing about this issue is that we are all given a choice. If you are right, game over ... not depressing just reality If I am correct and there is a God and eternal life WooHoo ... How Wonderful It Will Be!! If you are right, and I am wrong, I have still had a good life filled with love, peace and hope ... nothing lost!! I will take my chances and wish you all the best with your choice. I figure that if there are gods, and an afterlife, and if these gods are just, then they won't condemn me for being as honest with myself as possible and seeking truth in the best way I know how (that is, by becoming aware of my own biases and attempting to minimize their influence). If I am condemned to hell or annihilation for that, then they are likely not characters I would have enjoyed sharing the afterlife with anyway. Edit: http://images7.alphacoders.com/293/293250.jpg Quote I believe in life before death Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted January 18, 2014 Moderators Share Posted January 18, 2014 I'm not an atheist: and in some ways 'what humans want' would be a better title. It's the labels that split humanity up into camps that cause most of the problems in the world. Recognising our shared humanity is a key step in healing. Most of the arguments presented here are in the form of 'Pascal's Wager'. I've had a couple of goes at discussing it, with slightly different emphases, in my blog. Some may find those interesting - and I'm very happy to hear thoughtful critique and rebuttal. http://www.bravus.com/blog/?p=813 http://www.bravus.com/blog/?p=1498 Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted January 18, 2014 Author Members Share Posted January 18, 2014 I wasn't entirely in agreement with the title or parts of the article, but I thought it was interesting, because of some of the discussions here. No matter who we claim to be, what we want to see is people walk there talk. I'm in agreement with those that complain about Christians being ruder than most. There's also a fine line that Christians have to walk. We have our commission that Jesus asked us to do, and that is to spread the gospel throughout the world. I guess from what I've read throughout the different threads is that there's a difference as to what some believe the gospel entails. Some seem to think its shoving it down others throats, others like myself believe its living as a witness, etc., and than telling others when asked about why be believe as we do. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Quote: #686568 The theme of the article is meant to destroy belief in Jesus, whether or not that is intentional. Jesus, through His Holy Spirits' prompting of Moses and later the disciple Paul said, "...you may tell in the hearing of your son, and of your grandson, how I made a mockery of the Egyptians and how I performed My signs among them, that you may know that I am the Lord.”"Exodus 10:2 NASB "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God."1 John 5:13 NKJV For the sake of the author's desire, I said "if" when I've come to the conclusion it is misleading to say if, when conversing about the Creator, the One willing to suffer and die for me so I would be able to be certain of my future, as well as knowing that in this time period He is also willing to intervene when circumstances are more than I can deal with. And that could mean when ever there is someone I'd like to see in His Kingdom, of which I'm powerless to affect, except for asking Him to bring it to pass. And come to think of it, you'll be included in those prayers, that you'll find Him more satisfying than anything this world has to offer. He has only one thing about you more precious to Him than your salvation. That's your free will to choose for yourself whatever pathway you wish to follow. "“As for you, my son...., know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the Lord searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever."1 Chronicles 28:9 NASB God cares! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Quote: I'm in agreement with those that complain about Christians being ruder than most. Being ruder than most is a statement beyond my knowledge to state for certain. Especially since I know many Christians who are outwardly impeccable in their behavior toward others. My conclusion about the whole of society around the world is based on what Jesus said. "“Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets. “You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it." Matthew 7:12-14 NLT God cares! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 Quote: The theme of the article is meant to destroy belief in Jesus, whether or not that is intentional. Missing the point, again. I read nothing that would indicate a 'mission to destroy' anything but rather asking for mutual respect. It all depends on ones perspective, negative or positive, when reading something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 Quote: Missing the point, again. I read nothing that would indicate a 'mission to destroy' In the world of spiritual health, the deceiver isn't going to be carrying a signboard notifying his intentions to sidetrack away from the King of king's instructions. What another does not find in an article has little to commend itself to one who finds all they need from Holy Scripture, trusted for continual guidance. "Dear friends, do not believe everyone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world."1 John 4:2 NLT God cares! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators debbym Posted January 19, 2014 Administrators Share Posted January 19, 2014 Quote: In the world of spiritual health, the deceiver isn't going to be carrying a signboard notifying his intentions to sidetrack away from the King of king's instructions. What another does not find in an article has little to commend itself to one who finds all they need from Holy Scripture, trusted for continual guidance. "Dear friends, do not believe everyone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world."1 John 4:2 NLT God cares! Jesus saves! peace your interaction with human beings is not the same interaction you have with false spirits. people are not evil spirits. listening to people and understanding what they are saying, and sorting out what you believe and do not believe, does not require you to judge and condemn them. your enemy is within you. when you are surrendered and have subdued all your reactions to God's love, there is nothing the enemy can do to separate you from God regardless of what anyone says or believes or asserts. Romans 8, "There is nothing that can separate us from the love of God. Quote deb Love awakens love. Let God be true and every man a liar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 Quote: if these gods are just, then they won't condemn me for being as honest with myself as possible and seeking truth in the best way I know how In other words, if the Creator of the universe follows the plan that I decide He should, I and He will get along just fine. And since honesty is a gift of the Holy Spirit, Who is Diety, anything He decides must submit to my idea of what is Godlike. Sounds much like this below, "‘I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’"Isaiah 14:14 NASB God cares! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 Quote: It's the labels that split humanity up into camps that cause most of the problems in the world. I agree with that wholeheartedly. And here below is where that labeling began. "Then there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and his angels. And the dragon lost the battle, and he and his angels were forced out of heaven. This great dragon—the ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, the one deceiving the whole world—was thrown down to the earth with all his angels."Revelation 12:7-9 NLT God saves! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 Quote: people are not evil spirits.#686664 For the most part, especially for those who are willing to admit their helplessness in the face of the enemy of souls, without Jesus. However I would like to know how you see your position in answer to these two different circumstances. "Jesus then answered....So when He had dipped the morsel, He took and gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. After the morsel, Satan then entered into him. Therefore Jesus *said to him, “What you do, do quickly.”"John 13:26-28 NASB "And he threw the pieces of silver into the temple sanctuary and departed; and he went away and hanged himself."Matthew 27:5 NASB God cares! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 Good try at derailing the topic, but no go! The article is simply asking for honesty and humility on both sides. Is that so difficult for Christians? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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