A reminder about EGW and Ordination

[Stan]

I do not believe men's hand were put on her for this. But have no problem being corrected on that.

[Johann]

I saw this document at Elmshaven. I found it interesting how the word ordained was crossed over by a pencil while every thing else is neatly written in ink. Seems like someone else was adding to the document at a later date.

But there are also copies of the same document issued at different dates where nothing is crossed out.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Odd that it was a retroactive certificate. It would be interesting to see credentials that were issued to others at the same time.

**just checked a hunch...the beginning of December 1885 in Michigan was bitterly cold...folks probably stayed inside and didn't bother to go to work except for emergencies..

[Johann]

Who collects expired credentials? But there could be GC records.

[nuff sed]

Where does it say that hands have to be laid on???? You can be 'ordained' online without anybody ever laying eyes on you...http://www.ministerr

egistration.org/ Nuff Sed

[Kevin H]

I've read about this paper and the debate over the marks whether it was crossed out or not, good to see the picture of it. Now from the debate over this paper the discussion points out that she had a few of these issued to her every few years and only one had the marks. Whether this is true or not the issue is also raised as to why they needed since they also had the forms that did not say "ordained" for the credentialed ministers. So why could they have not used one of those forms?

[Johann]

The fact remains that Ellen Whte, the prophet and co-founder of our church, accepted for several years a document showing that she was counted as an ordained minister of the gospel by the church leadership.

[Live4Him]

That paper is a fake, been floating around the internet for years.

[Woody]

I've seen the original at the James White Library at Andrews. It's real as is the other 8 or so. It's all a matter of record.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

While it is not now as it was in the beginning, when man in his holiness and innocence had personal instruction from his Maker, still man is not left without a divine teacher which God has provided in His representative, the Holy Spirit. So we hear the apostle Paul declaring that a certain divine “illumination” is the privilege of the followers of Christ; and that they are “enlightened” by being made “partakers of the Holy Ghost.” Hebrews 10:32; 6:4. John also says, “Ye have an unction from the Holy One.” 1 John 2:20. And Christ promised the disciples, as He was about to leave them, that He would send them the Holy Spirit as a comforter and guide to lead them into all truth. John 14:16, 26. {PP 19.2}

What is the problem with accepting those who speak the Word as instructed? How else is the Word meant to be spread?

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."Mark 16:15 KJV

There is one other way indicated to wind up our world.

"For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth."Romans 9:28 KJV

God cares! Jesus saves!

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

That paper is a fake, been floating around the internet for years.

That is just one of several that exist and the White Estate tells us is real. However, the White Estate goes on to say that there was no public ceremony in which hands were laid upon her.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

When I think about the "laying of one's hands" upon someone for ordination, it's reminiscent of mystics and Magick -- where "something" is imparted by a high priestess (or priest) ... kinda creepy.

I don't think ordination should even involve it. (but that's just my opinion, and I understand it won't change the way anything is done)

[Gregory Matthews]

Pam, understandable.

There is a lot in the Bible and Christianity that resembles non-Christian religion. One question is: Which came first?

But, the answer is that sometimes the Biblical version came 2nd.

One example: Baptism, a Christian sacrament, clearly existed before the time of Christ.

[OzarkWoman]

When I think about the "laying of one's hands" upon someone for ordination, it's reminiscent of mystics and Magick -- where "something" is imparted by a high priestess (or priest) ... kinda creepy.

I don't think ordination should even involve it. (but that's just my opinion, and I understand it won't change the way anything is done)

I agree and of course, it is not biblical in any way. Another of man's religion that is not part of the Bible at all.

[Woody]

Pam, understandable.

There is a lot in the Bible and Christianity that resembles non-Christian religion. One question is: Which came first?

But, the answer is that sometimes the Biblical version came 2nd.

One example: Baptism, a Christian sacrament, clearly existed before the time of Christ.

Excellent Point Gregory.

We hear the cries of some who want to do away with Christmas - as Christians practice it ---

just because some pagans at some point in history - did something on the same day. The logic escapes me.

Surely we as Christians can establish our own traditions as we choose.

[Gregory Matthews]

As I have posted before: A Chrismon Tree.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

it's sorta funny, some pagan-originated practices don't bother me at all (like Christmas trees, Easter bunny - those are pretty innocuous), but other things, like Halloween and (forgive me) the unleavened bread and wine as symbols of body and blood, just make me cringe... so many things in life are "experiential" - if you've never been exposed to an alternate way of manners, customs, and traditions (including religious ones, such as *hands-on* ordination), I'm sure none of these things would really bother someone who grew up in a society where they were all commonly accepted practices..

[LifeHiscost]

Whenever there are those willing to put money out to accrue benefits to themselves, without necessarily fulfilling the conditions to acquire it lawfully, it is strong evidence there is a genuine practice ordained from above, that is trying to be counterfeited.

"Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.

Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, saying, “Give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” But Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money!"Acts 8:14-20 NASB

So also I would suggest the reality of taking the bread and wine, as Jesus described it, as being of beneficial spiritual significance for those choosing to yield as disciples of Christ.

"As they were eating, Jesus took some bread and blessed it. Then he broke it in pieces and gave it to the disciples, saying, “Take this and eat it, for this is my body.”

And he took a cup of wine and gave thanks to God for it. He gave it to them and said, “Each of you drink from it, for this is my blood, which confirms the covenant between God and his people. It is poured out as a sacrifice to forgive the sins of many. Mark my words—I will not drink wine again until the day I drink it new with you in my Father’s Kingdom.”"Matthew 26:24-29 NLT

God cares! Jesus saves!

[Gregory Matthews]

Ellen White has made some interesting comments in regard to ministry and the role that men and women should have in ministry.

Writing in 8T, on page 321, she begins a chapter entitled: The Canvasser A Gospel Worker. In her opening sentence she says that the canvasser holds a position equal to that of the gospel minister. She later suggests that our ministers should be able to sell our books.

Then writing on page 322, she makes the following interesting statement:

Quote:

It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God.

Following the above comment, she continues talking about the work of the colporteur. But, I find it very interesting that she does clearly state that both men and women are prepared by the Holy Spirit to become pastors to the flock of God.

This is a very different task than that of the colporteur. She does not call canvassers ministers. In fact, writing on page 325 she says:

Quote:

Some who labor in the canvassing field have a zeal that is not according to knowledge. Because of their lack of wisdom, because they have been so much inclined to act the minister and theologian, it has been almost a necessity to place restrictions upon our canvassers.

[Gregory Matthews]

For my following comments I am dependent upon THE ELLEN G WHITE ENCYCLOPEDIA, 2013, Review & Herald. It contains a section titled "Women, Ministry OF," which begins on page 1276 and ends on page 1283. This section is devoted to a discussion of what EGW thought the role of women should be in ministry.

NOTE: This newly published book contains 1463 pages and I suggest is of value to students of SDA history and of Ellen White.

My comments will largely come from page 1282 ofthis book.

Ellen White clearly said that women should be appointed to visit the sick and minister to the poor and she said that they should be set apart by prayer and the laying on of hands. This would be what we could call an ordination ceremony, but not to the position of a pastor. It could be compared to that of a deaconess.

She also said the same about women who volunteered to give some (not all) of their time to the work of the church. They should be set apart by prayer and the laying on of hands. Again, this would not be that of a pastor.

In 1895, while EGW was living in Australia, the Ashfield congregation ordained Elders, Deacons and Deaconesses by prayer and the laying on of hands. EGW was working nearby and can be assumed to have known about that as Conference officials conducted that ordination service.

In any case, five years later, that same church ordained 2 Elders, 1 Deacon and 2 Deaconesses. At that time W.D. White was the minister in charge of that ordination service. It may be assumed that he was acting with the full knowledge and agreement of EGW, his mother.

In 1916, E. E. Andross, the President of the Pacific Union Conference participated in an ordination service in which women were ordained to the position of Deaconesses. Elder Andross Cited EGW as approving of the ordination of women as Deaconesses.

Have I cited anything to indicate that EGW approved of ordaining women to the role of a pastor? Yes, but not in this post. But, here it should be clear that EGW approved ordaining women as a Deaconesses.

Why do I raise this point? Simply because some have suggested that we should not ordain women as local Elders and as Deaconesses. It is clear to me that EGW approved of ordaining women as Deaconesses.

[Tallmark]

The woman that said that there are tall, sinless people living on Jupiter, that masturbation causes cancer and TB, that if you get sick, it's because you sinned, we're going to live without a mediator, contradicted the bible and science numerous times not to mention the countless people who don't feel that they're worthy so they give up on religion altogether. We can't make Ellen fit the bible, so we created a bible called the Clear Word so it can fit her. Yeah, right. Actually, I don't care if it did or didn't happen. I'll get along just fine with my 27 fundamental beliefs- NOT 28. My $.02