Planned Giving of the Tithe?

[Sojourner]

Greetings all, I have a question on tithing, not the actual instruction of it in scripture but more based around what the collection process is for the tithe by local SDA churches?

In the Salvation Army Church that I have been a part of for a number of years, the practice is that every three years or so, the church has a “Planned Giving” weekend where the church discusses tithing and offerings, people notify the church of the amount that they will be giving and commit to a set total that is recommended to be 10% of their income. For new members they are visited by the local delegates from the financial committee who take the details of the amount that is promised and a box of envelopes are supplied to the member who each week will give the funds, periodically a receipt will be issued so that people know where they are up to and if they are behind an invoice will be sent out to them for the outstanding funds.

I wondered if this same practice is done within the SDA? My understanding of the Salvation Army is that they took the practice of Planned Giving from the Methodist church and with Ellen White having been involved with the Methodist church, I did wonder if the SDA have a similar Planned Giving programme?

[Sojourner]

I understand that DGrimm, but what I am asking about is the actual planned giving process?

[Gregory Matthews]

Sojurner: No. We do not do it like the LDS and the group that you mentioned.

Tithing is up to the individual.

Yes, for certain major projects, members may be visited and asked to make a dollar commitment.

[pierrepaul]

It's up to the individual member. I'm not aware of any congregations where donors can sign up for regular direct withdrawals.

I tend to give quarterly. Because of the nature of my business, it's hard to estimate my income with any modicum of precision until year's end, and my revenue stream is very erratic (some months I take home little to nothing, or even suffer a loss; other months I take home substantial amounts). I don't calculate 10%, since that merely asks the question "10% of what?" My taxable income? My after-tax income? My cash flow? (i.e do I take a "reserve" on capital expenditures and uncollected accounts receivable). What about income legally earned by my holding corporation or family trust? Tithable by those entities, or do I tithe personally when I receive distributions? What about gains in non-liquid forms (unrealized appreciation on capital assets)? What about retirement savings (tithable on the amount saved, or does one tithe on withdrawal?) What about the value of benefits (group insurance plan) - tithable or non-tithable? So I determine an amount that I can cheerfully give in accordance with scripture and I pay it in such manner as I believe is in accordance with God's instruction.

[Gregory Matthews]

The position of the Church is that it is between the individual and God as to how the tithe is figured.

Yes, members often ask specific questions. In response some leaders have given advice--some more than others. On this issue, I personally give as little as possible because it is essentially between the individual and God. I do not want to interfere with that process.

[nuff sed]

Why do some think that tithe is returned on income after the government taxes it? If the government says that your "Increase" is x amount why do some have the idea that the government has priority before God does? Yes, there are circumstances where expenses are deducted first in order to determine 'Increase"...but in MY Opinion taxes are not some of them. My position as a salaried employee to tithe the gross figure. Technically, I suppose that I do not have to tithe my Social Security because I have always had to pay 100% of the taxable amount. However,since I cannot outgive the Lord I just base my 10 plus 10 on both SS and Pension. Try it, you might like it!!! Nuff Sed....

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

God never said "Thou shalt not think".

Only under the direction of the Omniscient One shall we, in the study of His works, be enabled to think His thoughts after Him.{CT 530.2}

Sounds like a worthy pursuit. Since He says it is more blessed to give than to receive, I've chosen to be more blessed.

Jesus/God saves!

[Gregory Matthews]

Again, I believe that what one pays in tithe and how one figures the increase is between the individual and God. It is not my place to tell another what to do. However, I will make a couple of comments in regard to the post of "nuff sed."

1) Social Security (FICA) is a payment to the government that is made in anticipation of a future payment from the government. Therefore, some people deduct all FICA payments made to the government and then tithe on the total amount of FICA payments received from the government.

Other people take another approach. They do not deduct FICA payments made to the government. When they start receiving FICA payments they do not tithe on any such payments until they have received an amount that is equal to the total amount of payments made tot he government. Once that is reached they begin to tithe.

NOTE: The total amount of payments made to the government can be determined from account statements sent by the government.

2) Some people tithe on the gross amount received before taxes. They do this as they believe that taxes actually result in benefits. E.G. Tax money is used to build roads which they then drive on. As a that tax money is a benefit, they do not deduct such. They believe that such could be said for all taxes.

3) Yes, the government taxes on what it determines is income (not increase). That determination of income is made on the basis of complex laws passed by Congress. Some people do not believe that the laws that Congress passes are based upon Biblical standards. Therefore, they do not allow Congress to determine one's increase.

4) Yes, it is Biblical for one to deduct the expenses that are incurred in the production of income. Therefore, some people deduct, among other expenses, the expense of transportation to work. Others consider that such expenses are so minimal that they do not do such.

NOTE: I am just giving the above in an attempt to stimulate thought. I am not intending to tell anyone what to do.

[Tom Wetmore]

The idea of tithing Social Security taxes vs benefits doesn't make sense to me. The concept of tithe is on "increase", which inherently presumes actually receiving something. It is a bit like the accounting differrence between accrual vs cash basis accounting. But even on an accrual basis there would ultimately be adjustment if the accrual anticipated is never actually realized in fact. Most everyone effectively lives on a cash accounting basis anyway. And specifically for Social Security, many people die before receiving any or all of the benefits anticipated. Why tithe on what is not yet and may never be received? Not only that, the person paying the Social Secuirty taxes may not be the one to actually receive the benefits (survivor benefits, etc.). No need to do guesswork accounting. Just wait until you receive the benefits to tithe it.

The idea of tithing on gross income (including income taxes) is a bit more murky. If the rationale is that one receives governmental benefits as a result, the ability to calculate the actual value of that benefit is really sketchy. Those who pay little may benefit a lot and those who pay a lot may not actually receive the benefit, at least not proportionate to what they pay. And those of us who may fundamentally disagree with certain governmental spending, even on moral grounds should reduce the amount since they are forced against their will to pay.

But the morel logical view would seem to be taxes are just an expense of producing income. The taxes paid are not your income, it really is more like the government's income. Why not let the government tithe it's own income? If you get a refund, that would be part of your increase to tithe. And most people won't know how much that is until the file their return and account for deductions, etc.

But a literal interpretation of "increase" is more consistent with a measure of net worth. Why not tithe based on that?

But the bottom line is as already noted, tithing is ultimately between you and God. It is a giving response to generosity which makes no logical accounting sense. Maybe we should consider all our blessings as our increase and tithe accordingly. It is raining today. Consider the benefit of that. god has blessed me with increasing the size of my family. Consider the benefit of that. Has your health improved (increased)? Tithe that benefit to you.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

god has blessed me with increasing the size of my family. Consider the benefit of that.

Oops. With the increase in my family I can expect that each one of my increased family size will cost me an additional $150,000! Sounds like a negative increase to me.

As to Tom's other comments: Yes, I do not believe that the instructions that God has given us are so detailed that there can be a clear-cut answer. God left it "murkey." Just additional insight into the idea that it ultimately is between the individual and God.

However, I am not willing, at this point in time, to agree with what Tom has described as "more logical." It may deserve consideration, but beyond that I am not willing to go.

As to the idea that "increase" should be related to net worth, that is an idea that existed in the early days of our developing church and was so advocated. Folks, our denominational history in relation to tithe clearly shows a development that took place in stages.

[Gerr]

Why do some think that tithe is returned on income after the government taxes it? If the government says that your "Increase" is x amount why do some have the idea that the government has priority before God does? Yes, there are circumstances where expenses are deducted first in order to determine 'Increase"...but in MY Opinion taxes are not some of them. My position as a salaried employee to tithe the gross figure. Technically, I suppose that I do not have to tithe my Social Security because I have always had to pay 100% of the taxable amount. However,since I cannot outgive the Lord I just base my 10 plus 10 on both SS and Pension. Try it, you might like it!!! Nuff Sed....

I have a problem with tithing on the gross. Governments can pretty much set their tax rates. Arruba now takes in 59%, and some European countries 56%. What if the gov't decided to take 90% and you are paying the other 10% to the church? What have you got left?

[Woody]

The position of the Church is that it is between the individual and God as to how the tithe is figured.

Yes. I've found this interesting. We as SDAs believe in all of the Ten Commandments (including 'Thou Shalt not Steal'). But ... even the clear stealing from God (His Tithe) ... is winked at with this kind of attitude.

If a member is not paying ANY tithe -- according to scripture - he is stealing from God. ( A clear violation of 'Thou Shalt not Steal).

Should not all members be required to pay tithe in order to be a member in good standing?

IMHO

Woody has spoken.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

If a member is not paying ANY tithe -- according to scripture - he is stealing from God. ( A clear violation of 'Thou Shalt not Steal).

Should not all members be required to pay tithe in order to be a member in good standing?

1) No. A member should not be required to pay tithe in order to be a member in good standing. We are not The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints.

2) A member may not be paying tithe due to the fact that they do not have any income. One without income is not stealing from God by not paying.

3) Member Jim does not pay any tithe. He is living in a nursing home. His $6,000 a month expense for living in the nursing home is provided by government taxes. He has no income. He cannot pay tithe. But, there is no problem. Member Jim paid tax during his lifetime and he paid tithe on the full amount before tax was deducted.

NOTE: Any SDA church of decent size will have members in this situation. It is not unusual.

[Gerr]

But how about a member who does have income but pays no tithe? We dis-fellowship those living in violation of the 7th commandment, don't we?

[Woody]

Quote:

NOTE: Any SDA church of decent size will have members in this situation. It is not unusual.

Said member is then being faithful in tithe paying. He is paying all that is due.

[Woody]

Currently we disfellowship members for stealing. But the exemption is for stealing from God. God is the only person the church allows you to seal from.

[CoAspen]

A general response,

The last I checked, the church doesn't see my tax returns! So...how would anyone know if another person was paying a 'proper tithe'?

So....if we don't know, then wouldn't it be gossip or innuendo or surmising to talk about other peoples giving?

So....who determines what or by whom is doing the stealing? Way too much looking at what others are doing....or not doing...seems to permeate way to much of christianitys time!!

[onebeecee]

I happen to believe, that the church is NOT the only way to pay tithe to. Your local food bank, caring for an underprivileged child, animal shelter, etc. But then I'm not a regular church goer, so I feel no obligation to pay anyone's salaries. By belief, certainly does not have to be yours.

[Gregory Matthews]

Gerry asks why we discipline those who commit adultery but do not discipline those who do not pay an honest tithe.

1) The New Testament is clear in saying that the Church should discipline those who are involved in immorality.

2) The Bible does not give the Church the specific authority to discipline those who do not pay an honest tithe.

3) Also, the Bible does not give the Church the authority to go over the income of a member and to establish the amount of tithe that should be paid. Rather, the Bible leaves that determination up to the individual and their relationship with God.

[Gregory Matthews]

Onebeecee: As one who is not a regular church goer, I assume that you are not a SDA member. As such you have not obligation to pay tithe to the SDA Church. So, the rest is between you and God.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

(note: I pondered a lot whether or not to post this comment - because I know I'll probably get flak from it. But... here 't goes..)

The issue I have with tithing in the SDA church concerns these two statements by Ellen White (which the church lists as the principles behind its tithing operations), and the "re-defining" of the statements by the church:

a. "The tithe is to be used for one purpose, to sustain the ministers whom the Lord has appointed to do His work. It is to be used to support those who speak the words of life to the people, and carry the burdens of the flock of God."-MS 82, 1904.

b. "The tithe is not to be consumed in incidental expenses. That belongs to the work of the church members. They are to support their church by their gifts and offerings."-Letter 81, 1897.

The Church re-defined those statements to include the following as participating in the use of tithe funds:

1) ancillary GC, Division, Union, and Conference officers, departmental directors, accountants, clerks and office secretaries. It now includes "operating expenses" of those hierarchies, yet the local churches are designated as off limits to any tithe monies (unless you happen to be in Africa or other mission field).

2) 30% of the total salaries and expenses of elementary principals and teachers

3) The equivalent of total support of academy Bible teachers, residence hall deans and principals

4) An amount equal to the total cost of college and university Bible departments, residence hall deans, the presidents and deans of students

As of 2012, there are 18,182 active ordained ministers in the SDA church worldwide. There are 255,982 active "employees"....

2012 tithe was over $2.3 billion (that's BILLION).

Ordained SDA ministers on the average receive an annual salary of $50,000, with the base pay for newly graduated ministers at over $4000/month (not including cost of living, travel expenses, and 35-70% of college tuition for all children of SDA employees factored into the mix)

I would venture to guess that the tithe-receiving ancillary staff of attorneys, CPA's, and other professionals receive significantly more than $50,000 per year.

In 2012 there were 18,182 active ordained SDA ministers and 237,800 other active church employees. That means for every minister there were 13 other people doing ancillary work. :/

Salary for the ordained ministers is only 0.078% of the total tithe received (figuring at the $50K salary rate). The salaries for *all* church employees is 1.1% of the total tithe received (figuring at a $50K salary rate).

So that leaves 98.9% of over $2.3 billion for other purposes.

If the church can use part of that annual leftover $2.28 billion for operating expenses of GC, Divisions, Unions, and conferences, why can some not be given to individual churches that are in such desperate need of funds in order to remain open??

After all, it's the local churches that do the most in spreading the gospel...

references: statistics and compensation

[phkrause]

Not only that, from what I've heard and understood, if you pay tithe on your gross income, there is no need to pay tithe on you income tax returns. Also I believe that goes for your SS check!!

[Gregory Matthews]

Rudywoofs: Your questions are very valid and you should not receive any flack for asking.

You are to be commended for the work you have done in researching this.

I do not think your are 100% correct, however. But, I think I will wait to see if anyone else picks up on what I see.

That may test our members knowledge of church finance.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Rudywoofs: Your questions are very valid and you should not receive any flack for asking.

You are to be commended for the work you have done in researching this.

I do not think your are 100% correct, however. But, I think I will wait to see if anyone else picks up on what I see.

That may test our members knowledge of church finance.

I was hoping someone would comment.

Since I've never been directly involved with church finance operations, I'd love to see any added info!

[Gerr]

Is it possible that you have restricted the meaning of "minister" too much? Is not anyone employed by the church "who speaks the word of life to the people" a minister?